AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[amit19]

BTW @amit19 @cyclops Where did you find those?

Ok. i searched back its source and here it is --

https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3351&hilit=ganga+engine&start=3760#p2251605

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Asked OPs in last post for original source... so don't discard them yet.

Because of its lower thrust engine!

As i said earlier... Despite higher empty weight J-10's wing area, payload, loaded weight etc. are all comparable to MWF.
AL31 would also be ideal for 5th Gen AMCA to achieve T/W ratio comparable to Su-35 & Su-57.

I believe the "Ganga" engine (if it exists) is supposed to be a sleeker & lighter counterpart of AL31's class with 3D TVC for AMCA+.

You feel free to disagree.

The Excel sheet you posted is indeed from Bharat-Rakshak. I had seen this some time back. It is unreliable and a fantasy. Discard it.

J10 has all parameters similar to MWF but has 15% higher weight. Hence it needs 15% higher thrust. Simple as that! So, MWF will need 110kN as it is meant to be al all purpose fighter rather than air superiority one which needs extreme speeds

AMCA is medium weight plane. So, twin 110kN engines will make it zoom. Su35 has MToW close to 40tons. Eve F35 has MToW of 32tons with single engine of 180kN. AMCA with MToW of 25-26ton and thrust of 220kN will have much superior performance. Anything higher powered will be an overkill and waste fuel badly

So, might be possible that AMCA may be upgraded to heavy class like F-22, Su-57 or J-20? Or another 5G aircraft of heavyweight class is under development in India as FGFA is cancelled?

No, AMCA is meant to be medium. Our idea is to keep RCS minimum for air dominance and deep strike. We don't want our 5th gen fighter to be used as a truck for carrying ten ton load

Al31 and all its analogues are not owned by India, its IP remains with Russia & we can never truly be free to use it as we please.
It is only prudent to develop a 130kN class turbofan in India where 100% of its IP resides in India

And no I don't believe all of the raw materials for the Al31FP comes from India; imports do happen, so you can't really say we manufacture 100% of the Al31 in India maybe majority of it but definitely not 100%.

All mining activity is done outside HAL. So, raw material can be from anywhere- Africa, Australia, India, Russia etc. But mnaufacturing is in HAL

No country is going to give you all of the critical tech that goes into a turbofan engine.
After all, turbofans are an extremely coveted technology, there are more countries that make nukes than those who can make a proper functioning turbofan.

It is your assumption. Al31F is an older generation engine with simpler alloys and lower TET. India may even have reverse engineered as Chinese did with Al31F. India already had been making R21B engine for MiG21 in India. Russia gave the know-how or at least allowed India to reverse engineer without any political restrictions. But, now, 100% is made in India

Notice the dry & wet thrust requirements.

Now, we don't technically know if these are the exact specs of the engine but I doubt the deviation will be too high either.
After all, a 110kN class engine and a 130kN class engine are two very different class of aero engines.

Notice the weight too. It is Al31FP (P is for thrut vectoring nozzle) which weighs similarly. So, in all likelyhood, the test bed will also have capability to test Al31FP if India decides to modify it or make new engine for any other reason.

 

[cyclops]

All mining activity is done outside HAL. So, raw material can be from anywhere- Africa, Australia, India, Russia etc. But mnaufacturing is in HAL

I think you are getting confused by the term manufacturing which is used very losely in India.
If the all important hpt blades themselves aren't sourced from India then you really can't say HAL manufacturers 100% of the AL31FP.

HAL has also partially indigenised the Su-30MKI's giant AL-31FP engines, which are built in Koraput, Odisha. Fifty-three per cent of the engine by cost has been indigenised, with the remaining 47 per cent consisting of high-tech composites and special alloys - proprietary secrets that Russia will not part with. Even so, HAL builds 87.7 per cent of the engine's components in India.
https://wap.business-standard.com/a...-hal-s-growing-capability-114102300636_1.html

It is your assumption. Al31F is an older generation engine with simpler alloys and lower TET.

Not really, that's just fact.
Russia has never shared any of the crucial tech for the blades of AL31FP.
No country shares these things and if you really think otherwise then I suggest you provide a legitimate link that says HAL know how to make the alloys that go on the AL31FP.

India may even have reverse engineered as Chinese did with Al31F. India already had been making R21B engine for MiG21 in India. Russia gave the know-how or at least allowed India to reverse engineer without any political restrictions. But, now, 100% is made in India

Again, source for your claim.

Notice the weight too. It is Al31FP (P is for thrut vectoring nozzle) which weighs similarly. So, in all likelyhood, the test bed will also have capability to test Al31FP if India decides to modify it or make new engine for any other reason.

Nonsense.
Why would GTRE need to test an engine(AL31FP) that is already developed & in that which GTRE has done no foundational work.
Any development work for the AL31 class of engines is already done by Russia not India.

As for the weight, the stated weight is actually heavier than that of the AL31FP.

I suggest you not look at just the one pixel & see the whole image, almost every spec is different from the AL31FP.
AL31FP does not have a dry thrust of 90kN or a Turbine inlet temperature of 1720 K.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

I think you are getting confused by the term manufacturing which is used very losely in India.
If the all important hpt blades themselves aren't sourced from India then you really can't say HAL manufacturers 100% of the AL31FP.

HAL has also partially indigenised the Su-30MKI's giant AL-31FP engines, which are built in Koraput, Odisha. Fifty-three per cent of the engine by cost has been indigenised, with the remaining 47 per cent consisting of high-tech composites and special alloys - proprietary secrets that Russia will not part with. Even so, HAL builds 87.7 per cent of the engine's components in India.
https://wap.business-standard.com/a...-hal-s-growing-capability-114102300636_1.html



Not really, that's just fact.
Russia has never shared any of the crucial tech for the blades of AL31FP.
No country shares these things and if you really think otherwise then I suggest you provide a legitimate link that says HAL know how to make the alloys that go on the AL31FP.



Again, source for your claim.



Nonsense.
Why would GTRE need to test an engine(AL31FP) that is already developed & in that which GTRE has done no foundational work.
Any development work for the AL31 class of engines is already done by Russia not India.

As for the weight, the stated weight is actually heavier than that of the AL31FP.

I suggest you not look at just the one pixel & see the whole image, almost every spec is different from the AL31FP.
AL31FP does not have a dry thrust of 90kN or a Turbine inlet temperature of 1720 K.

Look man, you are giving articles of 2014 in 2019 and talking nonsense. Su30 manufacturing was in phases and as of now, India has got all TOT. I have given sources several times in this forum about Su30 engines being made in India. I have posted 100 to 200 comments on indigenisation of Su30. Still asking for source despite being an old member is really a shame. Just search "Al31F" posted by me in the forum search for sources.

 

[aditya10r]

So, might be possible that AMCA may be upgraded to heavy class like F-22, Su-57 or J-20? Or another 5G aircraft of heavyweight class is under development in India as FGFA is cancelled?

I have always liked the idea of an airforce with HI-LO mix.
For LO we have AMCA(20-24t) and for long range missions and absolute air superiority A"H"CA(30-35t).
Given ADA fiddled with lots of ideas and designs they surely have a design,all they need is a propulsion system and improved flight control system.

I hope we are invested in such a project apart from AMCA.
________________________________________

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

I beleive the given MWF has already been forecasted to match many of the capabilities of AMCA, the AMCA programme will be turned into a heavier platform (AHCA) with a bigger max takeoff weight in the class of Su-30 mki.

 

[Kay]

I have always liked the idea of an airforce with HI-LO mix.
For LO we have AMCA(20-24t) and for long range missions and absolute air superiority A"H"CA(30-35t).
Given ADA fiddled with lots of ideas and designs they surely have a design,all they need is a propulsion system and improved flight control system.

I hope we are invested in such a project apart from AMCA.
________________________________________

Too late to start now.

China is working on two stealth bombers - one supersonic stealth bomber and one stealth attack aircraft. Also J-20 is heavier than AMCA - it will work in a stealth sniper role as F-22 as well as in SEAD role. J-31 will be Chinese (and Pakistani) regular fighter.

By the time we can mature our stealth technology, stealth detection technology will proliferate - ISRT, quantum radars and long range networked radars capable of weapons lock.

Our smartest approach would be to asimetrically close the capability gap with China - Ghatak and arsenal planes loaded with cruise missiles. This is why we need a cheap Nirbhay (probably a stealth version of Nirbhay later).

 

[aditya10r]

Too late to start now.

China is working on two stealth bombers - one supersonic stealth bomber and one stealth attack aircraft. Also J-20 is heavier than AMCA - it will work in a stealth sniper role as F-22 as well as in SEAD role. J-31 will be Chinese (and Pakistani) regular fighter.

By the time we can mature our stealth technology, stealth detection technology will proliferate - ISRT, quantum radars and long range networked radars capable of weapons lock.

Our smartest approach would be to asimetrically close the capability gap with China - Ghatak and arsenal planes loaded with cruise missiles. This is why we need a cheap Nirbhay (probably a stealth version of Nirbhay later).

I agree with you but if we are to move forward in our defence aviation industry then we will have to invest in a program.Once the HEAVIER aircraft is ready we will have to constantly upgrade and update the aircraft,this is more expensive route but the best one available to us.

Given some amount of technology is available right now and we are expecting AMCA first'flight in 2024 and full scale induction and production by 2034,given we start investing in AHCA today we may be able to get that thing flying by 2025/27.

_________________________________________

 

[cyclops]

Look man, you are giving articles of 2014 in 2019 and talking nonsense. Su30 manufacturing was in phases and as of now, India has got all TOT. I have given sources several times in this forum about Su30 engines being made in India. I have posted 100 to 200 comments on indigenisation of Su30. Still asking for source despite being an old member is really a shame. Just search "Al31F" posted by me in the forum search for sources.

This is India, things don't drastically change in just few years.
2018 Vayu reportage on the same.

Regardless of the indigenous content on the HAL produced AL-31FPs, the newer 130kN engines that GTRE will in all probability make will be better and more advanced than the latter and we will have all its IP and will be able to use as we see fit and not have to beg our allies for every single component, & that's all that matters.

 

[Bleh]

View attachment 33781

This is good! If we sourcing some low end crap & metal from Russia, is to pay them royalty money as part or deal.

If "key high-end composites & special alloys" are Indian that means Tiwariji may have been right after all...

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

This is India, things don't drastically change in just few years.
2018 Vayu reportage on the same.
View attachment 33781

Regardless of the indigenous content on the HAL produced AL-31FPs, the newer 130kN engines that GTRE will in all probability make will be better and more advanced than the latter and we will have all its IP and will be able to use as we see fit and not have to beg our allies for every single component, & that's all that matters.

The engine itself is being produced from raw material. If it is import items, how is it from raw material? Also, you are repeating the same thing of 47% by value being imported, which is from 2014. You had stated this in the previous comment yesterday which I debunked. Why repeat the same again and again?

The plane also has several raw materials imported. But, all the "manufacturing" is in India. Mining and other raw material extraction may be from outside. Why are you considering "mining" as manufacturing? Don't you understand the meaning of "raw material"? Are you expecting HAL to start mining too?

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

I beleive the given MWF has already been forecasted to match many of the capabilities of AMCA, the AMCA programme will be turned into a heavier platform (AHCA) with a bigger max takeoff weight in the class of Su-30 mki.

AMCA is for stealth roles and for air domination and deep strike. How can MWF do these jobs? Payload wise, MWF may have similar payload as AMCA but capability wise, AMCA has its own role. There is no point in making AMCA big as that will reduce stealth. Smaller the plane, more stealthy it is.

 

[cyclops]

The engine itself is being produced from raw material. If it is import items, how is it from raw material? Also, you are repeating the same thing of 47% by value being imported, which is from 2014. You had stated this in the previous comment yesterday which I debunked. Why repeat the same again and again?

The plane also has several raw materials imported. But, all the "manufacturing" is in India. Mining and other raw material extraction may be from outside. Why are you considering "mining" as manufacturing? Don't you understand the meaning of "raw material"? Are you expecting HAL to start mining too?

You debunked nothing.
Just because the truth hasn't changed in a span of years & you are incredulous about it, does not make it not true.
It was true in 2014 & it is true since 2018.

CAG has exposed HAL on far too many occasions wrt what it advertises and what it is really capable of.
And I believe you've gotten bamboozled by terms like "manufacturing" & "raw materials" which are used willy nilly here in India.

Raw materials don't necessarily mean freshly dug out ores that HAL buys and then magically makes them into a flight worthy power plant.

Raw materials for one(HAL) might be considered developed and 'ready-to-be-imported' products for another(Russia).

As the article clearly states, high end composites & alloys(all of which constitute 47% by value) are imported.

Again, no one hands out trade secrets cultivated over several decades just like that.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Raw materials for one(HAL) might be considered developed and 'ready-to-be-imported' products for another(Russia).

Who defines raw materials like this? Are we now going to argue on definition of raw materials? When it is stated that engine is made from raw material stage, how are you arguing nonsense based on 2014 article?

Just because the truth hasn't changed in a span of years & you are incredulous about it, does not make it not true.
It was true in 2014 & it is true since 2018.

The definition of truth is consistency with reality. Reality has changed and hence the truth now is that Al31FP is made in India since 2015. What is true in 2014 was true only for 2014. Things are not static and hence as of now, situation is different.

As the article clearly states, high end composites & alloys(all of which constitute 47% by value) are imported.

Don't irritate by quoting the same old article in multiple formats - sometimes as link sometimes as screenshot etc. Talk of current status.

 

[Bleh]

I have always liked the idea of an airforce with HI-LO mix.
For LO we have AMCA(20-24t) and for long range missions and absolute air superiority A"H"CA(30-35t).
Given ADA fiddled with lots of ideas and designs they surely have a design,all they need is a propulsion system and improved flight control system.

I hope we are invested in such a project apart from AMCA.
________________________________________

I beleive the given MWF has already been forecasted to match many of the capabilities of AMCA, the AMCA programme will be turned into a heavier platform (AHCA) with a bigger max takeoff weight in the class of Su-30 mki.

AMCA is for stealth roles and for air domination and deep strike. How can MWF do these jobs? Payload wise, MWF may have similar payload as AMCA but capability wise, AMCA has its own role.

That's exactly what i was saying...

AMCA presently is to have empty weight of 12000 kg & MTOW of 25000kg, flying with 110KN engines to give T/W ratio as good as any top 5th Gen fighter!

If they later on upscale it to air-superiority fighter (like Tejas Mark 2 was originally to be an elongated Tejas on steroids) to 15000 kg empty weight & MTOW of 30000kg, the lowest level of heavier class fighters just above specs of F-18, then the 130KN engine can make it perform equal to F-22 or Su-57.

Given some amount of technology is available right now and we are expecting AMCA first'flight in 2024 and full scale induction and production by 2034,given we start investing in AHCA today we may be able to get that thing flying by 2025/27.

No, AMCA is meant to be medium. Our idea is to keep RCS minimum for air dominance and deep strike. We don't want our 5th gen fighter to be used as a truck for carrying ten ton load

There is no point in making AMCA big as that will reduce stealth. Smaller the plane, more stealthy it is.

WRONG!!!
F-22 has more stealth than B2... But both still have more stealth than any smaller plane in the world.
MWF with stealth features borrowed from AMCA is to have more stealth than LCA Tejas!

This "AHCA" wouldn't come before AMCA induction in 2035, until the new engine can be expected to become available & is obviously to replace our oldest Su-30s.
By that time our stealth (& jamming) tech would get better enough for jet that size, nor will we need 130KN class engine for anything else. We'll be needing 5th Gen truck for 10ton load, that's what FGFA was supposed to be!

It's my deduction Watson. You can keep stating stuff like "AMCA means Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft" or you could properly read & understand exactly what other people are trying to say.

 

[cyclops]

Who defines raw materials like this? Are we now going to argue on definition of raw materials? When it is stated that engine is made from raw material stage, how are you arguing nonsense based on 2014 article?

The definition of truth is consistency with reality. Reality has changed and hence the truth now is that Al31FP is made in India since 2015. What is true in 2014 was true only for 2014. Things are not static and hence as of now, situation is different.


Don't irritate by quoting the same old article in multiple formats - sometimes as link sometimes as screenshot etc. Talk of current status.

The business standard article is from 2014 and the Vayu Aerospace article is from 2018.

Just because in both BS & Vayu the meat of the issue is not as different like you want to be, doesn't make it false, it just means that you have a confirmation bias.

Now, I have already given links that directly contradict your claims with an exact quantitative value while the entirety of your argument is based on ambiguous words and phrases.
So if you have a source that absolutely proves that the most crucial alloys and composites that go into the lpt, hpt and anywhere else in the AL31FP is made in HAL then do show it and put the matter to rest.

Current status.
http://www.vayuaerospace.in/Issue/vayu-issue-Vayu-Issue-III-May-Jun-2018.pdf

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

The business standard article is from 2014 and the Vayu Aerospace article is from 2018.

Just because in both BS & Vayu the meat of the issue is not as different like you want to be, doesn't make it false, it just means that you have a confirmation bias.

Now, I have already given links that directly contradict your claims with an exact quantitative value while the entirety of your argument is based on ambiguous words and phrases.
So if you have a source that absolutely proves that the most crucial alloys and composites that go into the lpt, hpt and anywhere else in the AL31FP is made in HAL then do show it and put the matter to rest.

Current status.
http://www.vayuaerospace.in/Issue/vayu-issue-Vayu-Issue-III-May-Jun-2018.pdf

What do you mean by absolute proof? Where is your absolute proof that engine parts are imported? Is some random article which has exact copy paste words from Ajay Shukla's 2014 post called proof?

I have given enough proofs directly from HAL's executive's words that engine is made from raw material stage. They even organised a function in late 2017 to mark handing over of 50th indigenous engine. Su30 was made since 2004 an over 400 engines were made till 2017 for Indian Su30. So, handing over 50th indigenous engine means that the engines have now started to be manufactured in India.

See the sources:

Also see my conversation and Q&A in the thread below. Read several pages of comments after the post I have made as there were many questions and answers explained there:
https://defenceforumindia.com/forum...supersonic-fighter.76545/page-13#post-1450905

 

[cyclops]

What do you mean by absolute proof? Where is your absolute proof that engine parts are imported? Is some random article which has exact copy paste words from Ajay Shukla's 2014 post called proof?

I have given enough proofs directly from HAL's executive's words that engine is made from raw material stage. They even organised a function in late 2017 to mark handing over of 50th indigenous engine. Su30 was made since 2004 an over 400 engines were made till 2017 for Indian Su30. So, handing over 50th indigenous engine means that the engines have now started to be manufactured in India.

See the sources:

Also see my conversation and Q&A in the thread below. Read several pages of comments after the post I have made as there were many questions and answers explained there:
https://defenceforumindia.com/forum...supersonic-fighter.76545/page-13#post-1450905

Again with the opinions.
Just because they are similar doesn't mean they are false, or borrowed, either you prove your accusations or move on.

You can hide your logical fallacies behind ambiguous words all you want but unless and until you have a link the specifically says that the alloys and composites are made in HAL you'll continue to be wrong.

Saurav Jha is quoting the same 2017 news articles that you posted earlier, and no where does he confirm that 100% of the manufacturing of the AL31FP is done in HAL like you initially claimed & likewise my refutation from the 2018 Vayu article still stands, i.e. high end composites & alloys(all of which constitute 47% by value) are imported.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Again with the opinions.
Just because they are similar doesn't mean they are false, or borrowed, either you prove your accusations or move on.

You can hide your logical fallacies behind ambiguous words all you want but unless and until you have a link the specifically says that the alloys and composites are made in HAL you'll continue to be wrong.

Saurav Jha is quoting the same 2017 news articles that you posted earlier, and no where does he confirm that 100% of the manufacturing of the AL31FP is done in HAL like you initially claimed & likewise my refutation from the 2018 Vayu article still stands, i.e. high end composites & alloys(all of which constitute 47% by value) are imported.

Why is the 50th engine being handed over being celebrated? What difference dos it make if the engines were having imported components anyways? India was assembling engines even since 2004 when first Su30 was started to be made. How is that something worth having a celebratory festival?

The Vayu article just copy pastes the same number of Ajai Shukla article and sources no other primary source. You support something that appears to be a direct copy paste of an article of 2014 over something that is new? And yet here you are discarding Saurav Jha but backing Vayu article! This website is not very popular and definitely not something that many people.

Here is HAL koraput site which shows its capabilities to make blades and other components:

The outsourced components are very few and limited to simple things:

Is this called absolute proof? This is directly from HAL Koraput website whose link is:
https://hal-india.co.in/Sukhoi Engine Division Koraput/M__140

 

[Armand2REP]

Is this called absolute proof? This is directly from HAL Koraput website whose link is:
https://hal-india.co.in/Sukhoi Engine Division Koraput/M__140

It proves they don't make SCB.