'India forgot its soldiers, world remembers them with pride'

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Dovah

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So then may be should not criticize widow burning system, cast system as they were common in those days? We criticize them from present perspective, in yesterday's perspective they were right and Brahmin priests absolute power was right.

Like you said it is unfair to treat deeds of yesterday based on current times?:fu::troll:
Actually, no. The whole argument of avoiding judging past deeds from a present perspective is only valid if those actions had a specific purpose.
Practices like Sati were pure superstition and ignorance and added nothing of value to the society.

May be those soldiers were brave, but their bravery came for nothing good for India, hence we should ignore.
And what did the Nazis do for us? Shouldn't we ignore them too?
 

Waffen SS

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Actually, no. The whole argument of avoiding judging past deeds from a present perspective is only valid if those actions had a specific purpose.
Practices like Sati were pure superstition and ignorance and added nothing of value to the society.
And what was the positive contribution of those brave soldiers in Indian society? Helping British who was ruining our country. Jalianwalabagh? Boosting White Men's Burden? Is not this another superstition? Education clears superstition, just see how many percentage of Indians were educated when British left us and now.

And what did the Nazis do for us? Shouldn't we ignore them too?
And who is celebrating Nazis?

Nazis helped Netaji Subhaschandra Bose to form INA, Germans helped Indian revolutionaries to get arms, know about Hindu-German conspiracy? Bagha Jatin who died heroically while fighting British in an unfair battle in shore of Buribalam.

So it is clear we only thanking Germans because they helped us to gain independence, only in this sector. Otherwise no difference with them and British. Only is they lost, British won.

Enemy's enemy is my friend, no matter how much evil that friend is. Until we achieve our goal so long we are friends.

Netaji despite receiving aid from Nazi Germany and Japan, he never admired Nazism or Japanese Militarism. In fact he admired Soviet Union.
 
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W.G.Ewald

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I would like to see the cowards Waffen SS and Known_Unknown say what they believe to any IA WWII veteran.
 

Waffen SS

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The likes of Waffen SS and Known_Unknown are not Indian nationalists; they adhere to German nationalism and culture. Maybe it's that "Aryan" thing. They love Hitler and Nietzsche because they apparently can not find an Indian figure to admire, only Germanic mass murderers and mentally deficient syphilitics. They are a disgrace to India and to DFI.
:facepalm: It is pity to see a person who has no knowledge can comment like this. Why do you hate Germany and German people very much? What wrong they did apart from WW2 and German colonial expansion in Africa? Germany apologized how many former Colonial masters apologized? How many nation dedicated to stop young generation from doing mistakes of past crimes again? How many country publicly show what they have done in past? Absolute hatred for Germany here.

Germanic man you know English people themselves are Germanic? And they speak English which is a Germanic language? So if your accusation that we "respect"(?) every Germanic muss murders was true then we would also respect Churchil, do we?

Why do you speak Germanic English language then? Abandon it and learn Spanish and be a Latino American.

That DFI allows those two cowards to continue to slander the memory of Indian war dead is unbelievable to be. I'd like to see them go to any Indian Army regimental HQ and spout their hate and despicable words.

This is not just a philosophical discussion. DFI simply is allowing slander and it must stop.

Again, the two cowards I speak of have never served India in uniform, which makes their words even more galling.
So what do you want? To ban me?? Do it. Open your own forum where Germany will be hated from depth, Churchill would respected as hero.

Please join then stormfront.

I would like to see the cowards Waffen SS and Known_Unknown say what they believe to any IA WWII veteran.
We thank them for their service to Indian Military, what ever they did for British in WW2, we dont care.
 
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Ray

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The Marathas collaborated with the British against Tipu
So, I take it that it is fine to collaborate against another Indians with the imperialist power and that is valour.

Valour as I understand is - great courage in the face of danger, especially in battle.

synonyms: bravery, courage, fearlessness, courageousness, braveness, intrepidity, intrepidness, pluck, pluckiness, nerve, backbone, spine, heroism, stout-heartedness, manliness, manfulness, audacity, boldness, gallantry, daring, spirit, fortitude, mettle, dauntlessness, doughtiness, hardihood;

I will have you to know that because of Indian Army recommendation, two Pakistani officers got the highest or second highest Pakistani gallantry awards.

We recognise valour, maybe you don't.

Hakuna matata.

As Tohala wrote the truism

So to sum up your thoughts, you do not agree with celebrating any of the deeds of the "foot soldiers" who sided with the British (whatever may be the compulsion) but you believe that the "kings/rulers" who sided with the British need to be given leeway (with obvious disclaimers)?
 
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JBH22

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I would like to see the cowards Waffen SS and Known_Unknown say what they believe to any IA WWII veteran.
Tell you the truth the veterans who fought on Japanese side against British Imperialism have higher esteem in my eyes.

These people fought for the British crown and not for India.
 

Dovah

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And what was the positive contribution of those brave soldiers in Indian society? Helping British who was ruining our country. Jalianwalabagh? Boosting White Men's Burden? Is not this another superstition? Education clears superstition, just see how many percentage of Indians were educated when British left us and now.
By extending your logic, one could say that every Indian who was not fighting the Britishers actively was complicit in the tyranny of the Raj. The soldiers were doing their job. Sure, it would have been great if they had revolted, but under what banner? The idea of India as it is now did not appear until very late in the freedom struggle.

And who is celebrating Nazis?
Your user ID is Waffen SS, your avatar is Hitler rocking out to some music.

Nazis helped Netaji Subhaschandra Bose to form INA, Germans helped Indian revolutionaries to get arms, know about Hindu-German conspiracy? Bagha Jatin who died heroically while fighting British in an unfair battle in shore of Buribalam.
American government after the war too pressurized the Brits to leave India. I don't see you eulogizing the 'Murica. The Japanese also helped the INA and so did most nations that were fighting against Britain. Do you think Germany viewed India as a sovereign entity and wanted to rid it of the raj? Nope, we were a British territory and they would have captured us just as they did the European countries, I may be speculating here, but not without good reasons.

So it is clear we only thanking Germans because they helped us to gain independence, only in this sector.
The issue is not about you thanking the Germans but you insulting the soldiers who died in WW-2.

Otherwise no difference with them and British. Only is they lost, British won.
I agree and I have maintained this stance ever since I joined the forum.

Enemy's enemy is my friend, no matter how much evil that friend is. Until we achieve our goal so long we are friends.
Again, this is a simplistic way of looking at things. What if it is a three way fight? Maybe the enemy of your enemy is your enemy too?

Netaji despite receiving aid from Nazi Germany and Japan, he never admired Nazism or Japanese Militarism. In fact he admired Soviet Union.
Nazism is a failed ideology and there was no way it could have sustained itself even if Germany had won the war.
 

Ray

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Tell you the truth the veterans who fought on Japanese side against British Imperialism have higher esteem in my eyes.

These people fought for the British crown and not for India.


To look at it dispassionately, those of the INA who were earlier of the British Indian Army should have revoked their Oath of Allegiance before changing side.

Or else, oaths lose their meaning and import.

I am not too sure if they did so and intimated to the British India Govt.

All this is philosophical and one can draw any conclusion, but I merely am looking at valour, which cannot be overlooked!

And valour they had!

 
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Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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From a soldiers perspective:

Iron Maiden - The Trooper - YouTube

All the soldiers on the battlefield fighting against each other deserve respect. Now there are levels of reverence and respect depending on your perspective. For example, in this debate there can be two levels:

1) Soldiers like Bhagat Singh and others who stood against the British Raj
2) Soldiers who fought against the Italians and lost their lives in WW2 (Surprise, surprise--I do not know any of their name)

Almost all Indians revere and remember the names of those associated with 1st category. Some people on the thread just dislike the 2nd category or show some respect to them. The distinction between these two categories is pretty stark and should not be brought up while evaluating the role of 2nd category. People in 1st category are not only soldiers but political leaders in some sense. While those in the 2nd category follow the diktats from people above them(@Ray called them helpless in that sense).

I am of the opinion that those in 2nd list are small pawns in the games that people in 1st list play. But still all of them in 2nd list deserve our respect when they die facing each other in the battlefield--be it a German, British or Indian.
 

Dovah

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@Waffen SS

Hitler's views on India were disparaging.[68] He considered the British colonial rule of the subcontinent as an exemplary one and intended the German rule in the occupied East to resemble it.[68] Hitler thought little of the Indian independence movement, declaring the freedom fighters of being racially inferior "Asiatic jugglers".[68] As early as 1930 he spoke of the Indian freedom movement as the rebellion of the "lower Indian race against the superior English Nordic race", and that the British were free to deal with any subversive Indian activists as they liked.[69] In 1937 he told the British Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax that the British should "shoot Gandhi, and if this doesn't suffice to reduce them to submission, shoot a dozen leading members of the Congress, and if that doesn't suffice shoot 200, and so on, as you make it clear that you mean business."[69] During the same discussion Hitler reportedly told Halifax that one of his favorite films was The Lives of a Bengal Lancer, because it depicted a handful of "superior race" Britons holding sway over an entire continent.[70]
Nazi ideologist Alfred Rosenberg stated that although the Vedic culture was Aryan in origin, any Nordic blood had long since been lost due to racial mixing.[68] Like Hitler, he viewed the British rule in India as being desirable.[68]
During the first years of the war in Europe, as Hitler sought out to reach an arrangement with Britain, he held the notion that India should remain under British control after the war, as in his mind the only alternative was a Soviet occupation of the subcontinent.[68] As Britain had rejected German peace offers, Hitler ordered on 17 February 1941 to prepare a military study for a post-Barbarossa operation in Afghanistan against India.[53] The goal of this operation was not so much to conquer the subcontinent, but to threaten British military positions there to force Britain to come to terms.[53] A week later the Afghanistan operation was the subject of a discussion between head of the Army General Staff Franz Halder, Oberbefehlshaber des Heeres Walter von Brauchitsch and chief of the Operationsabteilung OKH Adolf Heusinger.[71] In an assessment produced on 7 April 1941, Halder estimated that the operation would require 17 divisions and one separate regiment.[71]
Indian revolutionary Subhas Chandra Bose escaped from India on 17 January 1941 and arrived in Berlin via Moscow.[72] There he proposed organizing an Indian national government in exile and urged the Axis to declare their support for the Indian cause.[72] He eventually managed to extract such promises from Japan after the Fall of Singapore and later on from Italy as well, but the Germans refused.[69] Bose was granted an audience with Mussolini, but Hitler refused to see him, although he did acquire access to Joachim von Ribbentrop after much difficulty.[69] The German Foreign Ministry was sceptical of any such endeavours, as the German goal was to use Bose for propaganda and subversive activity, especially following the model of the 1941 pro-Axis coup in Iraq.[73] These propaganda measures included anti-Raj radio broadcasts and the recruitment of Indian prisoners of war for the "Free India Legion".[74] Bose eventually met with Hitler on 29 May 1942.[75] During the discussion, which mostly consisted of Hitler monologuing to Bose,[69] Hitler expressed his scepticism for India's readiness for a rebellion against the Raj, and his fears of a Soviet takeover of India.[75] He stated that if Germany had to do anything about India it would first have to conquer Russia, for the road to India could only be accomplished through that country,[69] although he did promise to financially support Bose and help relocate him to the Far East.[75] Bose later described the encounter by stating that it was impossible to get Hitler involved in any serious political discussion.[69]
On 18 January 1942, it was decided that the Indian subcontinent was to be divided between the Axis powers. Germany was to take the part of British India roughly corresponding to northern and western parts of modern day Pakistan, while the rest of British India was marked for Japan.[76]
Apparently my speculation in the previous post was correct
 
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Waffen SS

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By extending your logic, one could say that every Indian who was not fighting the Britishers actively was complicit in the tyranny of the Raj. The soldiers were doing their job. Sure, it would have been great if they had revolted, but under what banner? The idea of India as it is now did not appear until very late in the freedom struggle.
No, those poor Indians were neither helping nor revolting against British. Where as soldiers were actively supporting British government.
India existed as state before British even came. All though it is off topic, India was not created by British. If India was not India then how foreigner British got the idea to trade in good condition they need to get "Dastak" from Mughal Empire Farukhsiar? Why they did not install viceroy of Bengal instead of India if India was not India hence Bengal was first captured by British?

India is like Europe, we were united again and again by different dynasties which never happened in Europe. The story of Indian kingdoms fighting among themselves was because they wanted to make empire through out India. Tri power struggle, Pal, Pratihar, Rashtakuta fought among them to control North India absolutely. None succeeded.

Your user ID is Waffen SS, your avatar is Hitler rocking out to some music.
Funny Gif image lol.

American government after the war too pressurized the Brits to leave India. I don't see you eulogizing the 'Murica. The Japanese also helped the INA and so did most nations that were fighting against Britain. Do you think Germany viewed India as a sovereign entity and wanted to rid it of the raj? Nope, we were a British territory and they would have captured us just as they did the European countries, I may be speculating here, but not without good reasons.
Yes, as I said Germany was our friend only because they helped us, Netaji knew this so he only ordered only Indian national Flag will be hoisted in captured Indian territory, it was not possible though, but you can get an idea from this.

The issue is not about you thanking the Germans but you insulting the soldiers who died in WW-2.
I am not insulting all dead soldiers, US soldiers in Europe, Marines in Pacific, Soviet soldiers, British pilots in battle of Britain they fought for their country, they fought because they did not their country to be captured by enemy.

I am not insulting, from very beginning I am only saying British Indian army's contribution in WW1 and WW2 serves us in nothing. Hense we should ignore.

I agree and I have maintained this stance ever since I joined the forum.
:thumb:

Again, this is a simplistic way of looking at things. What if it is a three way fight? Maybe the enemy of your enemy is your enemy too?
It depends on situation, it is better to make another 1 your friend and then attack last party after winning betray your friend, such incidents happened again and again.:tsk::sad:

Nazism is a failed ideology and there was no way it could have sustained itself even if Germany had won the war.
I am not defending Nazism and what I oppose that is it is not good idea to think Nazism=Germany what W.G.Ewald is spreading.

British also did not see us as divine race apart from calling us Kala Admi and Bloody Bagger.
 
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JBH22

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To look at it dispassionately, those of the INA who were earlier of the British Indian Army should have revoked their Oath of Allegiance before changing side.

Or else, oaths lose their meaning and import.

I am not too sure if they did so and intimated to the British India Govt.

All this is philosophical and one can draw any conclusion, but I merely am looking at valour, which cannot be overlooked!

And valour they had!

[/FONT]
No denying of the valour of these troops, I mean its not for keyboard warriors to assess them.

My take on this is that in eyes soldiers of INA galvanised the Indian independence movement, while the Royal Indian army fought for British Crown.

Worst part is that they fought for the independence of people who were suppressing ours.

PS: British Imperialism or Nazis are the same lot for me except that the latter one tried to do this to white people, had they gassed Blacks or Indians it would be in the footnote of some history book.
 

Dovah

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No, those poor Indians were neither helping nor revolting against British. Where as soldiers were actively supporting British government.
But the civil servants, the clerks, the indigo farmers were all employed by the British, they were the ones running the British government in India. My question is simple, would you rate them complicit in crimes against the nation?

India is like Europe, we were united again and again by different dynasties which never happened in Europe. The story of Indian kingdoms fighting among themselves was because they wanted to make empire through out India. Tri power struggle, Pal, Pratihar, Rashtakuta fought among them to control North India absolutely. None succeeded.
Yes. You have to see that India was India when it was under the Mauryans, divided amongst kingdoms, under the Mughals and the Marathas and under the British. We have no right to judge those who came before us. All we can infer is that Indians were a divided lot and paid the price of not resisting the foreign invaders, we must not repeat the same mistake again. The soldiers died in the line of duty, serving the flag they took an oath to protect, the least we can do is respect that.

Yes, as I said Germany was our friend only because they helped us, Netaji knew this so he only ordered only Indian national Flag will be hoisted in captured Indian territory, it was not possible though, but you can get an idea from this.
Germany was not a friend. I have provided some context in a previous post.

I am not insulting, from very beginning I am only saying British Indian army's contribution in WW1 and WW2 serves us in nothing. Hense we should ignore.
One could argue that by helping stopping the German war machine we spared us a few decades of servitude. Germans had nefarious plans for India.

It depends on situation, it is better to make another 1 your friend and then attack last party after winning betray your friend, such incidents happened again and again.
Nazis were not our friends.
 

desicanuk

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Tell you the truth the veterans who fought on Japanese side against British Imperialism have higher esteem in my eyes.
If Imperial Japan had won then instead of becoming independent of British crown we would have become a slave colony of the Japanese - a prospect far worse than the former.In the final analysis we can only blame ourselves for our servitude to foreigners like the Europeans,Turks or Mughals etc etc.
One important point to remember is that the British Indian Army was fighting the evil axis of Nazis ,Italy and Japan.Good over evil.Lets not confuse this
with British rule in India.Thats another topic for discussion.
November 11 is fast approaching when we in Canada remember our fallen soldiers.I will remember the brave Jawan during that time.Will you be doing the same in India?
 

jackprince

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I generally refrain from posting in this forum now-a-days, as excepting a few posters like Ray sir, Kunal... it has become more and more a place to shoot your mouth without thinking or caring... however people like waffen baffles me still.

he actually insults a gr8 many people still serving in Indian Armed forces, as one would certainly find that quite lot of descendants of the people who fought for the british during WWII are serving India today.

I personally believe that it is the formation of INA, and the naval mutiny of 1946 - which is the catalyst of Independence of our nation, not the non-violance movement. It was the idea that wielder of swords may turn their swords to their masters, scared the british. And those people who were buried in Italy would have been in INA, had they been garrisoned in Burma. if the soldiers who joined INA should be honored, and they must be, so must their comrades who happened to have been sent to fight in some other place and did not have the choice of joining INA.
 

Waffen SS

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But the civil servants, the clerks, the indigo farmers were all employed by the British, they were the ones running the British government in India. My question is simple, would you rate them complicit in crimes against the nation?
Not completely. If they resigned from Government it would be best that's why Gandhiji appealed them to resign. Indigo Farmers were notorious, see about Indigo Mutiny (Bengali- Nil Bidroho) they forced peasants to work in their farm. Civil servents and clerks are not directly associated with Famine. Many of independence leaders were civil workers(Gandhiji himself was a Barrister) yet Netaji refused I.C.S.

Yes. You have to see that India was India when it was under the Mauryans, divided amongst kingdoms, under the Mughals and the Marathas and under the British. We have no right to judge those who came before us. All we can infer is that Indians were a divided lot and paid the price of not resisting the foreign invaders, we must not repeat the same mistake again. The soldiers died in the line of duty, serving the flag they took an oath to protect, the least we can do is respect that.
I cant understand this actually. If we have no right to judge those who came before us then why do we say Hitler was evil? Did not Hitler come before us? Judging does not only mean criticizing also praising.

I cant understand that you refer Mauyrans, Gupta.:wat:

Germany was not a friend. I have provided some context in a previous post.
What ever Germans thought about us, that does not matter we got their help and that's it. They did not kill our countrymen in our own country.

One could argue that by helping stopping the German war machine we spared us a few decades of servitude. Germans had nefarious plans for India.
Wrong, Soviet Union did most job. They crushed German war machine.:salute: They provided blood, US provided tons of equipment and Britain apart from Battle Of Britain gave some lectures from London and starved us out. China kept larger portion of Japanese force forcing Japan to fight with less soldiers in PTO where Japan's fate was decided(Such as when US invaded Philippines then Japanese had 250,000 soldiers, if Japan was not fighting war against China, Japan would be able to deploy more troops).

:russia:

Yes German occupation was bad, so was British rule in India, Britain was systematic Germans were not. That's why Holocaust was happening same time British killed 3 Million Indians and brutally suppressed Quit India Movement.

Nazis were not our friends.
Either friends or not they helped us and we were benefited by them.

For oath yes I agree with you, how ever they took oath in name of British whose interest was totally opposite of India's. Not in name of India So they are hero to British not to us, at least not to me.

Meanwhile I see some of our people respect them, yes they can, but does British respect our freedom fighters Bhagat Singh or Surya Sen? At least they were all soldiers. If we can respect those who helped them then why they dont respect our freedom fighters?

At least civilized manner cant be offered in one sided way only.
 
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Ray

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Civil servents and clerks are not directly associated with Famine..
I take it then that the current food price rise & prohibitive rates of onion are not the complicity of civil servant & clerks & other govt functionaries
 
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Ray

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May be those soldiers were brave, but their bravery came for nothing good for India, hence we should ignore.d
What would be your comment on the IPKF?

Nothing good came from their bravery and sacrifices.
 

asianobserve

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Wrong, Soviet Union did most job. They crushed German war machine.:salute: They provided blood, US provided tons of equipment and Britain apart from Battle Of Britain gave some lectures from London and starved us out. China kept larger portion of Japanese force forcing Japan to fight with less soldiers in PTO where Japan's fate was decided(Such as when US invaded Philippines then Japanese had 250,000 soldiers, if Japan was not fighting war against China, Japan would be able to deploy more troops).

Your rabid hate against the West is clearly clouding your ability to understand facts or history. The Japanese did not lose in the Pacific because the Chinese kept a bulk of their forces (soldiers) busy in China! Hello? The Pacific War was mainly a naval war. In other words naval engagements dictated the general outcome of the War. Land forces do not fight in naval wars, certainly not in WW2! In WW2 countries fought at sea using ships, subs, aircraft carriers and carrier-borne aircrafts. The Japanese lost in the Pacific because they run out of carriers, ships, carrier-based warplanes and seasoned naval pilots after their atrocious fights with the Americans. With its naval assets decimated the IJN could not resupply their bases in the Pacific or protect those bases. So slowly those bases were overrun until the Americans were able to establish bases within striking distance of mainland Japan. Then Japan itself was pummeled day and night and then 2 of their cities obliterated by Oppenheimer's new toy.

Had the USN not broken the IJN's surface fleet then Nanking would have become pregnant from being repeatedly raped by the Japanese forces.
 

Waffen SS

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I take it then that the current food price rise & prohibitive rates of onion are not the complicity of civil servant & clerks & other govt functionaries.
Whole system now is corrupted. Present Government officials are not pure. But the difference is British had no policy to deal with Famine, now Government tries to help public, officials took that money and the whole plan fails, and British Government took almost no measure against Famine, Officials did not have much to do with this.

So we see in case of past villain was Government, now villain is officials and sufferers are common public in both cases.:truestory:

What would be your comment on the IPKF?

Nothing good came from their bravery and sacrifices.
Nope, IPKF tried to bring peace in war torn Sri Lanka, they fought, died but their objective to bring peace failed. Not because of IPKF but because of Sri Lanka Government. So all though they failed their contribution to bring peace is always admirable.:salute: And British Indian troops were used to put down rebellions against tyrants, to attack free country(2nd Anglo-Afghan war), to torture own countrymen and of course they were Cannon fodder. They were paid less, suffered more.

You guys are only talking about valor, countrymen aside how those soldiers themselves were treated? British pushed them in most critical situations, were paid less, no opportunity of promotion until British was forced, inter fare in their religious belief, apartheid in Military? What do you say about those?

Giving few medals dont mean you took care of them well. You guys only talked about valor what about these?
 
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