Ahmedabad-Mumbai-Pune High-Speed Rail Project Gets Closer to Realisation

[pmaitra]

^^ I second that.

Just a note: CLW made newer WAP series locomotives can reach speeds close to 250 kmph but we don't have good tracks.

I think the new projects must be done in Broad Gauge even if it is private/different from Indian Railways.

 

[SLASH]

What the hell are you guys talking about?

The project will be green field. It will have no connection to the existing rail network or infrastructure. The tracks will either be elevated or fenced to avoid any damage and obstruction. This idea has been there for many years. I remember Laalu came up with the idea. The project is highly expensive and if you ask me not feasible at all. It would be better if we work on building more expressways than trains. Road transport is more cost effective for the passengers and easier to make (using home grown technologies), also manufacturing industries will also get a boost from this. Anyone living in Mumbai would tell you that there is not much need for a bullet train between Mumbai and Pune. The expressway get you from Mumbai to Pune in 3 1/2 hours anyways. Mumbai-Ahemdabad is a different case because there is no expressway between the two cities yet.

However with regards to rail transport, the government should put DMIC (Delhi-Mumbai industrial corridor) to work as quickly as possible instead of wasting its time with high speed rail projects.

 

[Yusuf]

What the hell are you guys talking about?

The project will be green field. It will have no connection to the existing rail network or infrastructure. The tracks will either be elevated or fenced to avoid any damage and obstruction. This idea has been there for many years. I remember Laalu came up with the idea. The project is highly expensive and if you ask me not feasible at all. It would be better if we work on building more expressways than trains. Road transport is more cost effective for the passengers and easier to make (using home grown technologies), also manufacturing industries will also get a boost from this. Anyone living in Mumbai would tell you that there is not much need for a bullet train between Mumbai and Pune. The expressway get you from Mumbai to Pune in 3 1/2 hours anyways. Mumbai-Ahemdabad is a different case because there is no expressway between the two cities yet.

However with regards to rail transport, the government should put DMIC (Delhi-Mumbai industrial corridor) to work as quickly as possible instead of wasting its time with high speed rail projects.

I would certainly disagree. Look at the number of air travelers. It has increased exponentially over the last few years. People spend now for speed and comfort. High speed rail will be a success. I would chose a 60 min mumbai Pune high speed rail to a drive of 31/2 hours. It would be a lot safer too! We have to plan for the future as well as India booms and more and more people travel around for work and pleasure and will require fast, efficient and relatively cost effective means to travel. I am a supporter of high speed rail for sure.

 

[pankaj nema]

There is no need for high speed railways . If somebody wants quick travel take a flight

India does not have the money for high speed railways

The increasing demand for more passenger coaches, wagons for cargo , new railway lines , new bridges, more railway locomotives AND the dedicated railway freight corridors will TAKE up ALL the resources

 

[LurkerBaba]

There is no need for high speed railways . If somebody wants quick travel take a flight

With the rising cost of oil, air fare is going to shoot up. High speed rail offers a cheaper alternative

 

[Yusuf]

There is no need for high speed railways . If somebody wants quick travel take a flight

India does not have the money for high speed railways

The increasing demand for more passenger coaches, wagons for cargo , new railway lines , new bridges, more railway locomotives AND the dedicated railway freight corridors will TAKE up ALL the resources

Air travel cannot cater to mass demands for high speed travel affordable travel.

Who said we don't have money for it? And who said taxpayers money should be put into such projects? Private companies will jump into the project the day it is given a go ahead. And to compete with air travel they will offer the best of service and price. I have seen it in Taiwan.

But when it is in the hands of govt, it can go horribly wrong as it has for China.

PPP is the best model. BOT model. We need high speed rail, there is no doubt about that. Just like how the golden quadrilateral has changed the way India moves, high speed rail too will do the same when it comes around.

 

[pmaitra]

What the hell are you guys talking about?

The project will be green field. It will have no connection to the existing rail network or infrastructure. The tracks will either be elevated or fenced to avoid any damage and obstruction. This idea has been there for many years. I remember Laalu came up with the idea. The project is highly expensive and if you ask me not feasible at all. It would be better if we work on building more expressways than trains. Road transport is more cost effective for the passengers and easier to make (using home grown technologies), also manufacturing industries will also get a boost from this. Anyone living in Mumbai would tell you that there is not much need for a bullet train between Mumbai and Pune. The expressway get you from Mumbai to Pune in 3 1/2 hours anyways. Mumbai-Ahemdabad is a different case because there is no expressway between the two cities yet.

However with regards to rail transport, the government should put DMIC (Delhi-Mumbai industrial corridor) to work as quickly as possible instead of wasting its time with high speed rail projects.

Not true. Simple physics will tell you metal on metal is more fuel and hence cost efficient than rubber on tarmac.

I would certainly disagree. Look at the number of air travelers. It has increased exponentially over the last few years. People spend now for speed and comfort. High speed rail will be a success. I would chose a 60 min mumbai Pune high speed rail to a drive of 31/2 hours. It would be a lot safer too! We have to plan for the future as well as India booms and more and more people travel around for work and pleasure and will require fast, efficient and relatively cost effective means to travel. I am a supporter of high speed rail for sure.

I second this.

There is no need for high speed railways . If somebody wants quick travel take a flight

India does not have the money for high speed railways

The increasing demand for more passenger coaches, wagons for cargo , new railway lines , new bridges, more railway locomotives AND the dedicated railway freight corridors will TAKE up ALL the resources

India doesn't have money for aviation fuel, especially the expected price in 20-30 years.

With the rising cost of oil, air fare is going to shoot up. High speed rail offers a cheaper alternative

I second that.

Air travel cannot cater to mass demands for high speed travel affordable travel.

Who said we don't have money for it? And who said taxpayers money should be put into such projects? Private companies will jump into the project the day it is given a go ahead. And to compete with air travel they will offer the best of service and price. I have seen it in Taiwan.

But when it is in the hands of govt, it can go horribly wrong as it has for China.

PPP is the best model. BOT model. We need high speed rail, there is no doubt about that. Just like how the golden quadrilateral has changed the way India moves, high speed rail too will do the same when it comes around.

Excellent point.

 

[tarunraju]

I'm not sure I am getting this. If it is neither Standard nor Broad gauge, what gauge is it going to be?

A new gauge between 1000 mm and 1600 mm, with electrified third rail supplying 750V DC.

India does not have the money for high speed railways

India (the Government) need not have the money. This is PPP undertaking, private money is involved.

Besides, don't paint the Ahmedabad-Mumbai-Pune triangle with the "garib desh" brush. There's plenty of affluence and even opulence in a lot of people that live in those three cities. There does exist a market for luxurious high-speed mass transport.

 

[mattster]

High Speed rail for India has one major issue - security of the tracks. If a group of naxalities were to derail a high speed rail, the consequences would be horrific. The only way to do it would be to have smart electronic surveillance and monitoring all the way along the track.

Bombardier claims a stopping distance of 3000m at 250 km/h speed on a fully loaded train. That is almost 2 miles.
If you dont have monitoring - you would have to have really straight tracks that provide you with at least 2 miles of visibility in any kind of weather or you slow down considerably. Slow trains are a completely different story.

Smart track monitoring would make it even more expensive.
There are too many subversive anti-state actors in India. Its probably an issue in China as well but its a lot harder to get your hands on explosives in China than in India. I think the answer to India travel problems would be to build smaller airports in smaller towns all over the country that provide feeder networks to major cities. This would improve infrastructure to those area and create a quite a few jobs as well.

 

[pmaitra]

A new gauge between 1000 mm and 1600 mm, with electrified third rail supplying 750V DC.

Thanks for the info.

India (the Government) need not have the money. This is PPP undertaking, private money is involved.

I know. Many airlines are private too. Many are struggling due to aviation fuel price rise. The trends only suggest fuel prices will rise. Planes and cars must run on fossil-fuels, at least for the foreseeable future. Trains can be run on electricity. We cannot fly planes with electricity, nor drive cars in this context (for e.g. I would not take a Reva on a trip from Mumbai to Ahmedabad).

 

[tarunraju]

I know. Many airlines are private too. Many are struggling due to aviation fuel price rise. The trends only suggest fuel prices will rise. Planes and cars must run on fossil-fuels, at least for the foreseeable future. Trains can be run on electricity. We cannot fly planes with electricity, nor drive cars in this context (for e.g. I would not take a Reva on a trip from Mumbai to Ahmedabad).

If you noticed, commercial electricity prices are a lot more constant than fuel prices, and high-speed rail runs on commercial electricity.

Besides, aviation sector doesn't even come into the picture here, as distances between ADI, BCT, and PUNE are too small for flights. So it's not like there already exists an alternative to high-speed rail in that corridor.

 

[pmaitra]

If you noticed, commercial electricity prices are a lot more constant than fuel prices, and high-speed rail runs on commercial electricity.

Exactly. That means economic forecast on profit return will be more predictable and stable and hence it will be easier to attract investment. Other than that, we are trying to invest in N-power so that our dependence on fossil fuels for our energy needs will diminish in %.

I would wish all the best to this idea.

 

[SLASH]

i have travelled in high speed train in Shanghai. I would like to say that it is a breeze. But the stations are generally outside the city. Mumbai does not have any space to afford new tracks within the metropolitan region. So you will are already looking at a journey of about and hour to get out of the city. Even in Shanghai we had to travel for around 45mins to reach the high speed train station (travelling from Shanghai to Hangzhou).

How will the government schedule these trains. I mean the demand for this is just not there. How many people can afford this.

 

[Yusuf]

i have travelled in high speed train in Shanghai. I would like to say that it is a breeze. But the stations are generally outside the city. Mumbai does not have any space to afford new tracks within the metropolitan region. So you will are already looking at a journey of about and hour to get out of the city. Even in Shanghai we had to travel for around 45mins to reach the high speed train station (travelling from Shanghai to Hangzhou).

How will the government schedule these trains. I mean the demand for this is just not there. How many people can afford this.

Yes its the same in Kaohsiung as well as Taipei depending on which part of the city you are.
But even airports are far away depending on which part of Mumbai you are.

 

[SLASH]

Air travel cannot cater to mass demands for high speed travel affordable travel.

Who said we don't have money for it? And who said taxpayers money should be put into such projects? Private companies will jump into the project the day it is given a go ahead. And to compete with air travel they will offer the best of service and price. I have seen it in Taiwan.

But when it is in the hands of govt, it can go horribly wrong as it has for China.

PPP is the best model. BOT model. We need high speed rail, there is no doubt about that. Just like how the golden quadrilateral has changed the way India moves, high speed rail too will do the same when it comes around.

But there is no such demand between the sectors that have been chosen. Mumbai-Pune is well connected by both road and rail. Road is connected via Mumbai-Pune expressway and there are 5 trains daily between Mumbai and Pune. Why would this sector require a high speed rail network? Why would anyone pay such a big amount to save 2 or max 3 hours? A bus ticket cost Rs.200, while high speed train would cost over Rs.1000 (just guessing).

If you would talk about having a high speed rail corridor for Mumbai- Ahemdabad I would still understand. I take this route every week and know the need of having such a high speed trains. A lot of rich business travel this route. Also the condition of the road is terrible to say the least (mostly during monsoons, took 6 hours from Valsad to Mumbai (220 km)). But I still doubt many people will still pay a high amount on travel.

One can understand the popularity of high speed trains in developed countries as the difference between the high speed train and regular trains is not that vast, but in India the cost of ticket of a regular train is so less that not many people will prefer travelling using high speed trains.

Guys there is just not enough demand for such a mass transit system. At least not now nor in the next 15-20 years. We have an extensive rail network. The railways should improve the coaches in the existing trains instead of spending mindlessly on ideas like high speed corridor.

 

[SLASH]

Not true. Simple physics will tell you metal on metal is more fuel and hence cost efficient than rubber on tarmac.

Nope. I dont understand. May be i dont understand Physics but I can definitely do some Math. Road transport in these two sectors is cheaper than high speed trains.

Rates of transport:

Cost of Volvo bus seat Rs.220,
Regular train (non A/C) Rs. 80
Regular train (A/C) Rs. 250
Flight - makes absolutely no sense at all. The amount of time spent in reaching the airport, checkin lugguage, boarding, baggage pick-up etc.... doesn't make it practical
High speed train ----- (?????)

What do you think the rate of ticket is going to be for the high speed train. If i it is under Rs.700 it might be just acceptable. They will still never be able to recover the money spent on the project at that rate. Private players would not even think about getting into such a non sensical project. The prices of air tickets are high because of government taxes not because of high ATF prices. BTW, ATF prices are less than petrol these days.

 

[SLASH]

Yes its the same in Kaohsiung as well as Taipei depending on which part of the city you are.
But even airports are far away depending on which part of Mumbai you are.

My hotel was in the heart of the city. It would be very interesting how they would place the station for this project in Mumbai. I dont see any other option but to put it outside the city.

 

[Yusuf]

But there is no such demand between the sectors that have been chosen. Mumbai-Pune is well connected by both road and rail. Road is connected via Mumbai-Pune expressway and there are 5 trains daily between Mumbai and Pune. Why would this sector require a high speed rail network? Why would anyone pay such a big amount to save 2 or max 3 hours? A bus ticket cost Rs.200, while high speed train would cost over Rs.1000 (just guessing).

If you would talk about having a high speed rail corridor for Mumbai- Ahemdabad I would still understand. I take this route every week and know the need of having such a high speed trains. A lot of rich business travel this route. Also the condition of the road is terrible to say the least (mostly during monsoons, took 6 hours from Valsad to Mumbai (220 km)). But I still doubt many people will still pay a high amount on travel.

One can understand the popularity of high speed trains in developed countries as the difference between the high speed train and regular trains is not that vast, but in India the cost of ticket of a regular train is so less that not many people will prefer travelling using high speed trains.

Guys there is just not enough demand for such a mass transit system. At least not now nor in the next 15-20 years. We have an extensive rail network. The railways should improve the coaches in the existing trains instead of spending mindlessly on ideas like high speed corridor.

Preparation for next 15-20 years have to start now. The problem in India is that solutions are found when the problem is staring in the face. Its no anticipated and taken care of in advance. Thats the reason why we have clogged roads in India. Look at Bangalore for example. Once upon a time it was known for broad roads. Now there is no space to move. Roads are the same as what it was 20 years ago. In the last 3-4 years they have created one ways and started installing "magic boxes", and some underpasses and flyovers now. It is really pathetic. Bangalore's growth should have been anticipated years ago and infrastructure created for the same. Lots of private industry threatened to move out from Bangalore including the much wanted IT. That was when an elevated road was made in that part of the city.

10-15 years from now, there will be a need for high speed rail network. Only if it is there will there be any takers for it. I would imagine it being cheaper than air fare which would do the trick.

Just for your information, a business class high speed rail from Kaohsiung to Taipei in Taiwan is USD70 and takes 90 mins for the travel. Same thing by economy class air fare is USD 410 and it takes 60 minutes for the same. Do the math for both time and money.

 

[Yusuf]

My hotel was in the heart of the city. It would be very interesting how they would place the station for this project in Mumbai. I dont see any other option but to put it outside the city.

Yes, may be near Vashi or something in Navi Mumbai.

 

[SLASH]

Preparation for next 15-20 years have to start now. The problem in India is that solutions are found when the problem is staring in the face. Its no anticipated and taken care of in advance. Thats the reason why we have clogged roads in India. Look at Bangalore for example. Once upon a time it was known for broad roads. Now there is no space to move. Roads are the same as what it was 20 years ago. In the last 3-4 years they have created one ways and started installing "magic boxes", and some underpasses and flyovers now. It is really pathetic. Bangalore's growth should have been anticipated years ago and infrastructure created for the same. Lots of private industry threatened to move out from Bangalore including the much wanted IT. That was when an elevated road was made in that part of the city.

10-15 years from now, there will be a need for high speed rail network. Only if it is there will there be any takers for it. I would imagine it being cheaper than air fare which would do the trick.

Just for your information, a business class high speed rail from Kaohsiung to Taipei in Taiwan is USD70 and takes 90 mins for the travel. Same thing by economy class air fare is USD 410 and it takes 60 minutes for the same. Do the math for both time and money.

But our demographics do not allow such a project to succeed. All our metro cities are too far apart. For example if New Delhi was only 300-400 km from Mumbai high speed trains would have been necessary as the air traffic in this route is highly congested. But the problem is that distances are too large. Connecting Metros with Tier 2 cities does not make sense to me with such expensive mode of transport. Not many people will use it and would turn up as dead investment.

Air transport in a better option in this case. Plus our Airline industry is still in its growth stage. As it will start maturing the rates will be cheaper. One should also take into account the amount of tax we pay on our air tickets.