AH-64E Apache attack helicopter

[utubekhiladi]

So they should first look in to technical aspects of weapon system.

And still AH-64D is better, not over all superior, but better than Mi-28N, why? I pointed it out, and several conflicts, also where AH-64 was used, says us that attack helicopters are very vurnabale to enemy AA fire, and so, they should engage targets from behind covered positions and from as long range as possible to increase their survivability.

the more obvious thread is manpads launched heat seeking missiles. like stinger, javalin, AA batteries are not much of a threat in modern warfare anymore.

 

[Damian]

the more obvious thread is manpads launched heat seeking missiles. like stinger, javalin, AA batteries are not much of a threat in modern warfare anymore.

And here You can be very surprised, a well prepared ambush with use of AA or even HMG's can be very dangerous for attack helicopters, Americans were surprised that way in Baghdad where their AH-64's were badly damaged by HMG's fire and one even needed to land in enemy territory, pilots were rescued but machine was used by iraqi propaganda that say, that some farmer shoot down it with a rifle.

But still, AAA can be very dangerous if properly used.

 

[DMF]

India is so rich and so clever, buy USA weapons is the best choice, you know, the USA not take India as the threat, any thing you need they sell, and the most advantaged industry in USA is military industry, they have a throng lobby in the congress, if you Indian buy their weapons, the USA will help you to more rich, so that you can buy more their weapons, so in future, India should only buy USA weapons
You should cancel the European air fighter, to buy USA f15,f16,f18, and USA has lot of airplane carriers, floating at their port, much better than the one you get from Russia. Indian premier should visit USA, tell them that India can help to contain China, you will get lot of good deals from the Uncle Sam.

 

[Armand2REP]

read from the post 1 and you will see that lot of people saying that russians helo is not battle tested.

Mi-28N is a real leap for the Russians but it is inferior to Western models. The FLIR is only 2nd gen, it still relies on LOS ATGMs, the radar mast failed to pass state tests and its gun is the same low velocity 30mm of its BMPs. The biggest problem is the high susceptibility of FOD to the engine, they have lost several to it. Even the powder from rocket gas caused one to crash. There are also problems with the gear box and flight controls that turn minor problems into major ones.

 

[Damian]

its gun is the same low velocity 30mm of its BMPs.

Care to explain how high velocity automatic cannon become low velocity?! Not to mention that actually this weapon have better ballistics and have AP ammunition, something that 30mm M230 don't have, M230 fires only HEDP ammunition.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

I think uncle Sam is going to train our pilots

Maybe here.

http://www.army.mil/info/organization/rucker

 

[ace009]

India is so rich and so clever, buy USA weapons is the best choice, you know, the USA not take India as the threat, any thing you need they sell, and the most advantaged industry in USA is military industry, they have a throng lobby in the congress, if you Indian buy their weapons, the USA will help you to more rich, so that you can buy more their weapons, so in future, India should only buy USA weapons
You should cancel the European air fighter, to buy USA f15,f16,f18, and USA has lot of airplane carriers, floating at their port, much better than the one you get from Russia. Indian premier should visit USA, tell them that India can help to contain China, you will get lot of good deals from the Uncle Sam.

Trolling again? OT - but I will bite.
India is neither "rich" like USA or Europe, nor "clever" like china (to steal other countries tech) - we are straight, peace-loving folk, who have been attacked 4-5 times by our neighbors and as a result want to keep ourselves armed.

As for Mi-28N, it is not a bad bird, it i probably better than the Mangusta or the Eurocopter, but compared to the venerable Longbow AH64D, it is still not up there yet. The biggest point of being "battle-tested" is that the obvious chinks in the armor (literal and figurative) are exposed and can be upgraded in later models, not to mention tactics and personnel training can be modified too. That is what is lacking in the Mi-28N.

 

[Vladimir79]

Care to explain how high velocity automatic cannon become low velocity?! Not to mention that actually this weapon have better ballistics and have AP ammunition, something that 30mm M230 don't have, M230 fires only HEDP ammunition.

I have fired the 2A42 AP and it bounced off the side of a BMP-2 at 900m. We need a new 30mm class gun because it does not pack a punch.

 

[Rahul Singh]

This isn't decision of significance unless of course it is intend to kill LCH and following projects. Hate to repeat again, the logic given earlier for diversifying the procurement was to avoid putting all eggs in one basket but as i see only the basket has been changed and eggs are being transferred to that. C-17, C-130J, AH-64 Longbow, Chinook is sure thing etc.

 

[Armand2REP]

It is amasing how much American kit India is purchasing that doesn't require a bunch of ToT. They are gaining nothing in experience making these purchases.

 

[Yusuf]

We need to call the fire brigade in here

 

[Rahul Singh]

It is amasing how much American kit India is purchasing that doesn't require a bunch of ToT. They are gaining nothing in experience making these purchases.

There works a strong US lobby. In days when everything is bought through Open Tenders, government favors FMS for US made hardware. If that is not all despite all kinds of malicious practices not even a single US firm has been blacklisted so far, when we have half the world on MoD's blacklist. Guess, that's what superpower means.

 

[mattster]

Looking at the progression of the MRCA, the c-130J, c-17 and now the AH-64, it is quite clear that the IAF has been very professional in its evaluations. Rafale and EF were downlisted because they had the best overall performance and closest in complaince with over 600 parameters evaluated. C-130J has no proper competition because all the other aircraft in class are either under developement or have piss poor after sales service records. Besides C-130J in it's class has no worthy opponent. Furthermore c-130J was only ordered after extensive testing under Indian conditions. C-17 too has a similar story going for it. AH-64 clearly out performed in atleast 20 parameters against the mi-28. Clearly for the IAF AH-64 meets its requirement most. AH-64 block 3 is truly an amazing bird and brings in high end technology which no amount of Israeli modification can match. IAf has also acquired CBU-10% SFW, Harpoons. IN is the process of acquiring P-8I, Fishhawk torpedos.

EU and Israeli weapons have always been integrated into many US made platforms. There is no reason why Helina wont be integrated onto AH-64.

Both IN and IAF have been very careful and professional while going for new equipment. They have gone in for the best that suit their requirments and the technically superior contenders. IA does the same but IA has had terrible luck in such matters. There is no reason to doubt their resolve to go for 'the equipment' that gives them the adequate capacity to defend our country.

I agree with your assessment. It looks like in every case - the IAF picked the best hardware available to them.

All this crap about making amends and doing Boeing a favor for losing out on the MRCA is just that - total crap.
The AH-64 block3 is far ahead of anything out there.

 

[ace009]

This isn't decision of significance unless of course it is intend to kill LCH and following projects. Hate to repeat again, the logic given earlier for diversifying the procurement was to avoid putting all eggs in one basket but as i see only the basket has been changed and eggs are being transferred to that. C-17, C-130J, AH-64 Longbow, Chinook is sure thing etc.

Not really - earlier 80% of our defence procurement was from Russia.

Nowadays, the French have received the Scorpene Submarines, the mega-upgrade of the Mirages, the MMRCA is pretty much in their bag and they will probably get the Mistral and the Naval-MRCA too. In addition they will probably supply the A2A missiles for the MMRCA. Sizable chunk - eh Armand?

The Russians have got the Gorshkov and the Mig-29K, the PAK-FA/ FGFA, the Brahmos, the Super MKI, the missiles for the MKI and Mig-29K, the Akula submarine and the new AIP stealth submarines will probably go to them too. Add to this the Mi-35 helos and the Tu-142 Bear upgrades, the Kamov and the AWACS An-132s they get a sizable chunk too.

The Americans have got the C-17, C-130J, AH-64 Longbow, Chinook as Rahul mentioned above. They also got the P-8 Poseidons. The LCA engine and possible jaguar engines are also in their kitty, not to mention the sale of the Kitty Hawk! They will also get to sell some of the armament for these systems.

The Brits are running short, although they have got the Jaguar upgrades, the Hawk AJTs, the Augusta Westland helos and now the Sea King upgrades might go to them too.

The Germans have got the engines for the Arjun, the arty and the Taurus missile might go to them too.

The Israelis have been partners with India for a LONG time and have got in the Barak SAMs, the UAv deals, the Radar deals including the Rafael systems and in addition will help with FGFA and Super- MKI upgrades as well as any future AWACS India gets hold of.

If I have missed something, please feel free to add in.

Anyway, if you look at the recent defense deals of India, you can say that India is indeed diversifying it's sources - and it's a damn good thing too.

 

[Armand2REP]

Not really - earlier 80% of our defence procurement was from Russia.

Nowadays, the French have received the Scorpene Submarines, the mega-upgrade of the Mirages, the MMRCA is pretty much in their bag and they will probably get the Mistral and the Naval-MRCA too. In addition they will probably supply the A2A missiles for the MMRCA. Sizable chunk - eh Armand?

Don't forget Catherine FC, Sigma 30, Shakti, TopSight, Kaveri upgrade and INS systems...

 

[Ray]

This isn't decision of significance unless of course it is intend to kill LCH and following projects. Hate to repeat again, the logic given earlier for diversifying the procurement was to avoid putting all eggs in one basket but as i see only the basket has been changed and eggs are being transferred to that. C-17, C-130J, AH-64 Longbow, Chinook is sure thing etc.

Actually putting all the eggs or not putting all the eggs in one basket is a Catch 22 issue.

Multiple sources add to the inventory, repair infrastructure to include spares, mechanics,etc since one would have to cater to multiple variety of equipment. Yet, during any period of sanctions being imposed, the silver lining would be that the 'hardship' could be tided over without loss of any appreciable efficiency.

One source would be the converse.

 

[pmaitra]

Looking back at the helicopter discussions ->

Looking back at the helicopter discussions we had before this decision was made.

We evaluated and discussed our needs and what we were considering. One can go to the relevant thread or perhaps we can merge this thread with the already existing one. This will help in reference.

So what are we looking at?

To be inducted very soon:

Mil-28N

AH-64D

HAL-LCH

To be phased out after a long and glorious career:

Mil-24/35

Going by the platform and armour, the Mil-28N beats the AH-64. However, when we bring in the weapons each of these two carry, AH-64 has a clear advantage over Mil-28N. Question of being battle tested? Not a very valid one IMHO. Is Arjun MBT battle tested? Is LCA battle tested? Also, we have Kamov-50, a fine machine (perhaps the best in the world at the moment) that is also battle tested, but rather dear on the pocket and expensive to maintain.

 

[Neil]

Going by the platform and armour, the Mil-28N beats the AH-64. However, when we bring in the weapons each of these two carry, AH-64 has a clear advantage over Mil-28N. Question of being battle tested? Not a very valid one IMHO. Is Arjun MBT battle tested? Is LCA battle tested? Also, we have Kamov-50, a fine machine (perhaps the best in the world at the moment) that is also battle tested, but rather dear on the pocket and expensive to maintain.

sir...its armour and platfrom makes it down and out in 20 categories...its too heavy to operate in hilly areas compared to Apache plus limited armaments gives clear edge to apache...and u r right just because its not battle tested doesnt mean its inferior.. e.g SU-30MKI...

Off topic...:: read in above post may be of ACE it says that chinook going to US... evaluation are still goin on for heavy class heli right...??

 

[Ray]

It is a tricky trade off.

One would like to have total protection and yet be able to be used in all terrains of our country and all likely battlefields available for our country.

During Op Vijay we had to make do with Mi 17 in a gunship role for which they were not designed, equipped nor really effective and we lost one!

 

[pmaitra]

sir...its armour and platfrom makes it down and out in 20 categories...its too heavy to operate in hilly areas compared to Apache plus limited armaments gives clear edge to apache...and u r right just because its not battle tested doesnt mean its inferior.. e.g SU-30MKI...

Off topic...:: read in above post may be of ACE it says that chinook going to US... evaluation are still goin on for heavy class heli right...??

You are right to a certain extent. The Soviet Army had similar issues with the Mil-24/35 in Afghanistan. They had to do rolling takeoffs. They have addressed those shortcomings in the Mil-28N and also introduced the Mil-28N rotors in the old Mil-24/35s. However, it still is too heavy for the Himalayas. Is the AH-64 good? Perhaps better than Mil-28N, but then we have our own LCH specifically designed for the Himalayan heights.

Again, note that we have Mil-28N as a gunship at one end of the spectrum and the Mil-17 as a troop transporter at the other end. Mil-24/35 sits right in the middle fusing both the roles. Hence, Mil-28N is better optimised for assault and will not have the extra load of the passenger compartment and the passengers (save a small space for rescuing pilots of downed helicopters which will be rarely used anyway).

Just like Ray Sir said below, you can either have a light helicopter that is vulnerable or have a rock solid flying bunker that cannot go to the heights. You cannot have both. It's a matter of trade-off.

It is a tricky trade off.

One would like to have total protection and yet be able to be used in all terrains of our country and all likely battlefields available for our country.

During Op Vijay we had to make do with Mi 17 in a gunship role for which they were not designed, equipped nor really effective and we lost one!