AH-64E Apache attack helicopter

[Defcon 1]

I have no problem with foreign maal.. I have problem with why they helicopters for photops.. I have seated in avro myself and it is shit.. where is the contract for c295 .. again nasams useless purchase.. spyder/Akash will do the job fine.. and please don't say that they are for Delhi.. I don't think that nasams can protect Delhi at all... Don't compare to Americans , they have many many more systems complementing nsasm.. different platforms increase cost but I guess IAF doesn't care about that all .. no Varun Astra torpedoes is on scorpene submarines.. they have older German/Soviets ones..
Ak203, ka226 .
Ofcourse all foreign experts have different views because now GOI is whore for Americans/Russians. So there is no different opinion... the day GOI said no you will se my point.. they uses these tactics to blackmail us ..

The general pattern in India's procurement is direct G2G deals are much faster than open tenders. NASAM, AK203, Ka226 are all G2G deals. C295, P75, etc are all open tenders. that is why they have issues. Basically politicians are more efficient at hammering out deals compared to people designing the DPP

 

[Sridhar_TN]

I have no problem with foreign maal.. I have problem with why they helicopters for photops.. I have seated in avro myself and it is shit.. where is the contract for c295 .. again nasams useless purchase.. spyder/Akash will do the job fine.. and please don't say that they are for Delhi.. I don't think that nasams can protect Delhi at all... Don't compare to Americans , they have many many more systems complementing nsasm.. different platforms increase cost but I guess IAF doesn't care about that all .. no Varun Astra torpedoes is on scorpene submarines.. they have older German/Soviets ones..
Ak203, ka226 .
Ofcourse all foreign experts have different views because now GOI is whore for Americans/Russians. So there is no different opinion... the day GOI said no you will se my point.. they uses these tactics to blackmail us ..

Why do you seem so awfully sure that everything’s shit? Let’s take a step back and think, is the Defence ministry really that stupid to go in for these purchases? The Apache angle has been a long thought out purchase going back to early 2010. The armed forces see a lot of value in the Apache with its longbow radars and C&C capability. It amuses me when people start shouting , everything is shit just because we buy a superbly proven foreign made equipment. All the foreign stuff we buy are of the best of the best quality. C17’s, apaches, Poseidon’s, howitzers, chinooks etc. We have ZERO idea about NASAMS capability. If we say Akaash is comparable to NASAMS II, I shake my head in disbelief and am stunned at the way you came to that conclusion. There are a million reasons Defence ministry have gone for the NASAMS II, same like they stuck to their guns to purchase the S400 even when we were offered THAAD and patriots. Same way they stuck to their guns to buy the K4 thunder when the Russians pressured Delhi to purchase pantsirs.
The evidence that this gov goes only for top notch stuff is very well written all over the board. We don’t buy Solely Russian weapons anymore and that part has been substituted with Indian equipment. Where GOI goes for foreign mask, is highly capable systems that we don’t have or predict of developing in the short to medium run.

 

[abhay rajput]

Why do you seem so awfully sure that everything’s shit? Let’s take a step back and think, is the Defence ministry really that stupid to go in for these purchases? The Apache angle has been a long thought out purchase going back to early 2010. The armed forces see a lot of value in the Apache with its longbow radars and C&C capability. It amuses me when people start shouting , everything is shit just because we buy a superbly proven foreign made equipment. All the foreign stuff we buy are of the best of the best quality. C17’s, apaches, Poseidon’s, howitzers, chinooks etc. We have ZERO idea about NASAMS capability. If we say Akaash is comparable to NASAMS II, I shake my head in disbelief and am stunned at the way you came to that conclusion. There are a million reasons Defence ministry have gone for the NASAMS II, same like they stuck to their guns to purchase the S400 even when we were offered THAAD and patriots. Same way they stuck to their guns to buy the K4 thunder when the Russians pressured Delhi to purchase pantsirs.
The evidence that this gov goes only for top notch stuff is very well written all over the board. We don’t buy Solely Russian weapons anymore and that part has been substituted with Indian equipment. Where GOI goes for foreign mask, is highly capable systems that we don’t have or predict of developing in the short to medium run.

You miss my entire point.. what is more urgently needed.. attack helicopters or fighter aircrafts.. I am really waiting for a day that they will use those helicopters, which is not going to happen for the foreseeable future.. nasams is short range Sam , just like Akash and Spyder . Akash will always have more capabilities simply because its missiles are more heavy and can dance around more .. there is not a single reason I can think of other than bribe to usa for s400.. atags is another stroy , we have quite good indigenous artillery but we will still import it.. similarly ka226 and hal luh , the logical decision would be hal luh but to keep Russians happy we have to buy ka226..
Your point about ak203 is wrong too.. if we are going for the best stuff then why ak203, why not m416 or more latest ak12/ak15.. you people refuse to believe that there is a huge corruption wherever babus are involved.. most of our defence deals are bribe to keep other countries happy .. that's why I said Congress had some guts in foreign policy compare to NDA pussy's

 

[delbruky]

You miss my entire point.. what is more urgently needed.. attack helicopters or fighter aircrafts.. I am really waiting for a day that they will use those helicopters, which is not going to happen for the foreseeable future.. nasams is short range Sam , just like Akash and Spyder . Akash will always have more capabilities simply because its missiles are more heavy and can dance around more .. there is not a single reason I can think of other than bribe to usa for s400.. atags is another stroy , we have quite good indigenous artillery but we will still import it.. similarly ka226 and hal luh , the logical decision would be hal luh but to keep Russians happy we have to buy ka226..
Your point about ak203 is wrong too.. if we are going for the best stuff then why ak203, why not m416 or more latest ak12/ak15.. you people refuse to believe that there is a huge corruption wherever babus are involved.. most of our defence deals are bribe to keep other countries happy .. that's why I said Congress had some guts in foreign policy compare to NDA pussy's

Looks like Abhay Rajput's pussy is really hurting with NDAs decision just like the other two implants on this forum RONE and SOUTH BLOCK. Abhay Raj pussy only likes russian cocks. Just to let everybody know that the reason why the original Russian stooges AKA Conress-UPA went for American products like C130j and Globemaster was because russians did not adhere to any service contracts, were black mailing and swindling money for all the spares. Moreover Russian shared the same Sukhoi Tech they gave india for a whopping USD 22 BN (in the 90s) with the chinks. There is a reason why India in principle is moving towards Israeli, French and American products.

Please see attached Abhay Rajputs Apache that ideally UPA would have had procured

 

[ezsasa]

And incase we forget, Apache & chinook procurement process started in 2009. 15 price extensions have happened before the deal is signed.

Decision for first lot to go to IAF and second lot to go to IA was taken during UPA time(needs confirmation).

Basically most of the complaints we are hearing about this deal are straight out of a national herald article in 2019.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

You miss my entire point.. what is more urgently needed.. attack helicopters or fighter aircrafts.. I am really waiting for a day that they will use those helicopters, which is not going to happen for the foreseeable future.. nasams is short range Sam , just like Akash and Spyder . Akash will always have more capabilities simply because its missiles are more heavy and can dance around more .. there is not a single reason I can think of other than bribe to usa for s400.. atags is another stroy , we have quite good indigenous artillery but we will still import it.. similarly ka226 and hal luh , the logical decision would be hal luh but to keep Russians happy we have to buy ka226..
Your point about ak203 is wrong too.. if we are going for the best stuff then why ak203, why not m416 or more latest ak12/ak15.. you people refuse to believe that there is a huge corruption wherever babus are involved.. most of our defence deals are bribe to keep other countries happy .. that's why I said Congress had some guts in foreign policy compare to NDA pussy's

You see, attack helicopters form an integral part of IBG’s. They are very essential and a multi fold force multiplier that the armed forces do not have right now. Unless we go for A-10 warthogs, attack helis are as important as aircrafts.
‘Aakash will have way more capability’.... I honestly cannot comment there as I don’t know about any info that highlights the amazing performance of aakash and the speed of its responsiveness to threats. You seem to have more info on that than I do. Wrt to ka226, it’s a proven platform while
Luh, has just come out in recent years. I am sure the luh will also be purchased in some numbers. Ak203 is a good rifle. In the 7.55 mm category, it’s not as bad as you think. It definitely is not an outdated Ak-47.
Coming to your point about keeping Russians and Americans happy, I don’t disagree with you entirely. That is one of the diplomatic vicious cycles that goi is under. Goi uses Defence purchases to leverage diplomatic relations as well. There is no doubt about that. But in the process, armed forces get the very best of equipments. It’s not just about corruption. No. It’s about tactfully maneuvering two superpowers who could just as easily approve a sale to Pakistan or China, should India’s purchases go down. At least there are numerous news articles that indicate Russians blackmail goi by flirting military sales to Pakistan.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Aakash will have way more capability’.... I honestly cannot comment there as I don’t know about any info that highlights the amazing performance of aakash and the speed of its responsiveness to threats. You seem to have more info on that than I do. Wrt to ka226, it’s a proven platform while
Luh, has just come out in recent years

Akash have shown it's worth in recent airforce and army exercises were it out performed isreali spyder system and that's the reason why akash system got more orders from army side.
By this import friendly logic every system which india will develop will be newer than so called matured aka battle proven system.
But do you know what they milk every single penny from india when they will sale it to india that is the cost for maturity and anyways HAL produced helicopters have shown their worth dhurv is a pretty nice helicopter. If we just reject indigenous platforms because they are not mature then how we will develop newer system with cutting edge technology.
And anyways western or Russian platforms are not matured from day one they also take years to make them a battle worthy unit.
By this logic we cannot develop any indigenous systems.

No. It’s about tactfully maneuvering two superpowers who could just as easily approve a sale to Pakistan or China, should India’s purchases go down. At least there are numerous news articles that indicate Russians blackmail goi by flirting military sales to Pakistan

India should not be scared by these tiny issues btw Russia is already selling engines for JF-17 and recently provided them helicopters.
Let them supply engines to pakistan we will counter that buy mass production of indigenous jets. But im totally fine with all of that stuff till the time they don't get anything for free. And CCP totally own Russia they get their technology copy that and Russians cannot even stop selling the equipment to them they just post some articles and then go quite. They have gained more TOT from Russia without paying for that compared to india which just payed 1.8 billion for some stupid tot of a tank.

How much Russian machines pakistan can buy? Do they have big reserves like india?

If india goes with indigenous ways we can develop much more large number of inventory at cheaper cost than what we spend on buying outdated Russian junk.

Any military deal with Pakistan from US prospective will underline their efforts in Indo-pacific region were india is one of the biggest players.

 

[abhay rajput]

Looks like Abhay Rajput's pussy is really hurting with NDAs decision just like the other two implants on this forum RONE and SOUTH BLOCK. Abhay Raj pussy only likes russian cocks. Just to let everybody know that the reason why the original Russian stooges AKA Conress-UPA went for American products like C130j and Globemaster was because russians did not adhere to any service contracts, were black mailing and swindling money for all the spares. Moreover Russian shared the same Sukhoi Tech they gave india for a whopping USD 22 BN (in the 90s) with the chinks. There is a reason why India in principle is moving towards Israeli, French and American products.

Please see attached Abhay Rajputs Apache that ideally UPA would have had procured

Bro I am more hardcore supporter of BJP than you .. and please calling me pussy - Keyboard warriors nothing more nothing less.. and I know about foreign policy more than you do because my dad was an IAS officer and he told me a lot of stuff .. you refuse to believe that it's gonna come and bite us in the ass in the future.. this is the reason.. lastly about Russia stuff I have literally said about ka226 and ak203 junk , go read it before commenting...

 

[delbruky]

Bro I am more hardcore supporter of BJP than you .. and please calling me pussy - Keyboard warriors nothing more nothing less.. and I know about foreign policy more than you do because my dad was an IAS officer and he told me a lot of stuff .. you refuse to believe that it's gonna come and bite us in the ass in the future.. this is the reason.. lastly about Russia stuff I have literally said about ka226 and ak203 junk , go read it before commenting...

Appologies, did not mean to disrespect.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Akash have shown it's worth in recent airforce and army exercises were it out performed isreali spyder system and that's the reason why akash system got more orders from army side.
By this import friendly logic every system which india will develop will be newer than so called matured aka battle proven system.
But do you know what they milk every single penny from india when they will sale it to india that is the cost for maturity and anyways HAL produced helicopters have shown their worth dhurv is a pretty nice helicopter. If we just reject indigenous platforms because they are not mature then how we will develop newer system with cutting edge technology.
And anyways western or Russian platforms are not matured from day one they also take years to make them a battle worthy unit.
By this logic we cannot develop any indigenous systems.


India should not be scared by these tiny issues btw Russia is already selling engines for JF-17 and recently provided them helicopters.
Let them supply engines to pakistan we will counter that buy mass production of indigenous jets. But im totally fine with all of that stuff till the time they don't get anything for free. And CCP totally own Russia they get their technology copy that and Russians cannot even stop selling the equipment to them they just post some articles and then go quite. They have gained more TOT from Russia without paying for that compared to india which just payed 1.8 billion for some stupid tot of a tank.

How much Russian machines pakistan can buy? Do they have big reserves like india?

If india goes with indigenous ways we can develop much more large number of inventory at cheaper cost than what we spend on buying outdated Russian junk.

Any military deal with Pakistan from US prospective will underline their efforts in Indo-pacific region were india is one of the biggest players.

Like I said. No idea of aakash lethality, so will not comment on that aspect, although Very skeptical about such high praises that is being sung.

“India should not be scared by these tiny issues ”... a sale of a few su35s to Pakistan is a pretty big issue. Those are things India has to worry about. A few destroyers or corvettes or frigates or submarines. Those are thing GOI will worry about. So to say India should not be scared of such possibilities is not a good idea.

Nobody is insisting India to go only for imports. But until and unless India has proven technology for the armed forces, there is no need for such hue and cry for foreign purchases. Indigenous content is slowly being streamlined and adapted, but it has its own pace. Technology gap, reliability gap and a lot of cost effectiveness are issues that are being overcome albeit at a slower pace than desired.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

India should not be scared by these tiny issues ”... a sale of a few su35s to Pakistan is a pretty big issue. Those are things India has to worry about. A few destroyers or corvettes or frigates or submarines. Those are thing GOI will worry about. So to say India should not be scared of such possibilities is not a good idea.

Chinese already have armed pakistan with most of their Russian copies.
They have copies of su-30 Su-27 and they will have no problem to sell those stuff to pakistan but again does pakistan have enough economy to support these dual engine aircrafts ? They got T-90 tank copies recently Russia also sold them ATGMS.
Chinese are arming pakistan with new S-20 subs which are more or less based on Russian Killo class submarines. For submarines pakistan is also taking help from Turkish naval industry.for air defense they have Chinese copies of Russian SAM systems.

By all probability india should not get scared from these sales first does pakistan have enough capital to enjoy friendship with Russia? I'm sure Russians will not give anything to porks for free. And if proks buy stuff from Russians it will make their pathetic economy dead.

And not to forget Russians will lose a big defence market if they start arming pakistan. Loss will be greater for them only.

And let's come to the question of getting scared. India is already spending US$65.86 Billions on defence and the amount will only increase in future their is no way how pakistan will be able to be at par of india in conventional warfare and if by chance we are unable to match proks with these much funds then it's only because of not having indigenous military complex.
(IMO Chinese military complex in few years will be bigger than Russia.)

 

[asianobserve]

Chinese already have armed pakistan with most of their Russian copies.
They have copies of su-30 Su-27 and they will have no problem to sell those stuff to pakistan but again does pakistan have enough economy to support these dual engine aircrafts ? They got T-90 tank copies recently Russia also sold them ATGMS.
Chinese are arming pakistan with new S-10 subs which are more or less based on Russian Killo class submarines. For submarines pakistan is also taking help from Turkish naval industry.for air defense they have Chinese copies of Russian SAM systems.

By all probability india should not get scared from these sales first does pakistan have enough capital to enjoy friendship with Russia? I'm sure Russians will not give anything to porks for free. And if proks buy stuff from Russians it will make their pathetic economy dead.

And not to forget Russians will lose a big defence market if they start arming pakistan. Loss will be greater for them only.

And let's come to the question of getting scared. India is already spending US$65.86 Billions on defence and the amount will only increase in future their is no way how pakistan will be able to be at par of india in conventional warfare and if by chance we are unable to match proks with these much funds then it's only because of not having indigenous military complex.
(IMO Chinese military complex in few years will be bigger than Russia.)

And Russia also earlier sold S-400 to China. Soon China will have an S-400 copy which Pskistan will eventually have...

 

[Assassin 2.0]

And Russia also earlier sold S-400 to China. Soon China will have an S-400 copy which Pskistan will eventually have...

Tho copying radar technology is very difficult stuff.( almost impossible)
But i agree only china and US have resources and capabilities to copy such stuff.
Anyways sales of S-400 to india is already delayed by 2 years.

Chinese are also working to Buy SU-57E. Russians think that they will sell their systems to China and will develop cutting edge technology from money which is gained but as Chinese military complex is growing gap will eventually get lower and lower.

 

[asianobserve]

Tho copying radar technology is very difficult stuff.( almost impossible)
But i agree only china and US have resources and capabilities to copy such stuff.
Anyways sales of S-400 to india is already delayed by 2 years.

Chinese are also working to Buy SU-57E. Russians think that they will sell their systems to China and will develop cutting edge technology from money which is gained but as Chinese military complex is growing gap will eventually get lower and lower.

It's clear that Russia is having it's own UK-to-US moment (starting WW2). It's hedging that it can slow down it's decline by aligning to a rising power.

 

[piKacHHu]

Defence purchases in NDA regime is more effective than done during UPA regimes. All these big tickets purchased are providing strategic depth to our defences along with balancing ties with our old allies. Purchase of MH60 and Apache will highlight the fact since we have trade surplus with the USA, we kind of make it up for by purchasing state of the art defence equipments from the USA (unlike China). So far, Apaches, P8, Chinook, C17 etc. are peerless in terms of performance. Adding to that, US FMS program entails added security against corruption charges and of course, professional attitude of USA firms in terms of quality, customer satisfaction, and timely delivery which we have witnessed in all these purchases.
We have burnt our hands with Russia on numerous occasions like Viki, MRTA, FGFA etc. even though we need to continue appeasing them for their help in strategic submarine program, space program, maintaining existing inventories, and providing political support in UN. In this evolving geopolitical scenario where Russia is increasingly shifting towards China, it would be prudent to hedge the risks and maintain balanced approach towards all till we become capable enough to produce quality defence equipment.
For the argument that these purchases are killing indigenous programs; I feel except LCH , there is no indigenous solutions are even thought off to provide parallels to C17, P8 etc. For LCH, it is yet to achieve operation clearance and upon its induction, it will only complement Apaches (being the spear head) in CAS not substitute it. For NASAMS, again it is very capable system; even though we are developing AStra based QRSAM still the capability of Sentinel radar system makes all the difference. Getting NASAMS for protection of NCR-Delhi is also a good strategic decision IMO.

 

[WolfPack86]

BREAKING: Deal done
India signs deal with United States for 6
@Boeing_In
AH-64E Apache helicopters for the Indian Army. Fuselages of all six to be produced at Tata-Boeing JV production line in Hyderabad

 

[WolfPack86]

India, US sign contract for additional Apache attack choppers
India and US have signed the contract for six Apache helicopters for the Indian Army which follows a contract for 22 helicopters ordered by the Indian Air Force in 2015. While 17 of 22 Apaches have been delivered to India, the remaining five will be delivered to the Indian Air Force by the end of March 2020.

Notably, the deliveries for the Indian Army Apaches are planned to begin in 2023.

The Apache sale is a hybrid procurement – Direct Commercial Sale (DCS) between Boeing and MoD and Foreign Military Sale (FMS) between the GoI and USG.


The FMS contract for the Apache includes munitions, training, aircraft certification, and components includes engines, EO sensors and the radar. The direct commercial sale portion of the contract primarily consists of the aircraft (less engines/sensors), logistic support, spares and services.

Indian Army will get the AH-64E Apache configuration – the latest attack helicopter version that the US Army first took delivery of in November 2011.

In terms of capabilities, the AH-64E Apache helicopters for the Indian Air Force and the Indian Army will be identical.
https://www.defencenews.in/article/...-for-additional-Apache-attack-choppers-809421

 

[suny6611]

all r longbow ?
they can share data with other Indian assets ?

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

People don't understand why IA is getting so many helos.Reason is the dwindling of dedicated CAS aircraft in its inventory.Jaguar is the last type left,and that will be gone in 10 years more or less.Everything will be multi role jet.Gunships and drones will take over low level CAS duty.Also cost per sortie of gunships and drones is far less than jet fighters with ever more complex engines .Tejas is also quite handy for this due to low maintainence cost.

As for NASAMs its main duty is to protect Delhi region from Babur cruise missile attacks which is the only standoff attack capability pak has,outside of its limited number of ballistic missiles.

all r longbow ?
they can share data with other Indian assets ?

After COMCASA ,yes.

 

[Atcjurvin]

We are purchasing a lot of American weapons I hope that their fanboys and PR magazine's will stop writing propaganda against us.