Agni V Missile

[Kshithij]

That is where Indian members here failed to understand: Indian missile doesn't need to test that many tests because India's adversaries (Pak and China) are much weaker than China's adversaries (Soviet and US). The more test you do, the more reliable your missile will be. During cold war, it was estimated that US missiles had around 16-18% failure due to its own quality issue, the figure of Soviet was around 22%, Chinese was probably around 33%. So, if China shoot 100 missiles to Soviet, there will be only 66-67 missiles getting close to the target. Then considering the level of soviet anti-missile system, let's say 20% of them will be shoot down. Finally, around 53 missiles hit the target.
Now, let's look at India. If we say India's missile reliability is 55% hypothetically, then 55 of 100 missile will launch successfully. But Chinese defense network can't match Soviet, if we say 10% destroy rate, then 50 India missile will finally hit the target. See, with less money, India gets the same achievement.


It gives me great pleasure to wake up fanboys from their dream because I had the same problem when I was young. Now I can turn the favor.

This is the era of digital technology. Missile reliability is much higher than 80% nowadays. The precision manufacturing, vacuum seal, chip based guidance etc make things much more robust.

Indian missile tests have never failed when in advanced stage of development or in user trial. The missile failure has happened only in development stage. This is the case for all ballistic missile, cruise missiles and satellite launch vehicles.

The only place where Indian missiles can fail is in the warhead stage as many warheads, especially nuclear ones are not tested in terms of success rates and detonation on re-entry. So, India needs to test more nuclear warheads in re-entry mode.

 

[mayfair]

It gives me great pleasure to wake up fanboys from their dream because I had the same problem when I was young. Now I can turn the favor.

Nope, you've got a serious itch on your arse or as we say in India "g@9d mein khujli" and you desperately want to transfer that to someone else.

 

[Chinmoy]

I have a news for you: American, Russian, Chinese undertake more tests on both stages.

You are talking of user trial here. Same is done in India with Prithvi series and Dhanush.

Sorry, but that is totally BS: Missile is such a complicated system, its performance as a whole is the result of integration of sub-system. A new development or new sub-system will probably impact other sub-systems and then the whole missile's performance. So, once you add in a new development, there is a good chance that the missile has to go through the series of test from beginning.

So, once missile design is frozen and each sub-system is tested independently, you will not change any system unless the sub-system keeps failing the test as a whole.

If you have a new development on certain sub-system, leave it to the future variant.

You would not say this if you know how India work. India is not in a liberty to produce prototype in numbers. Every system and sub system needs to be test on a deployed platform before integrating it in upcoming production variant or the next series. If you do follow the BRAHMOS test or Agni test, you would notice that with every test, we are testing one new component or other. But these systems are already in deployed state. For India, none of missile system are freezed.

So its better to understand others method before coming to a conclusion.

 

[AnantS]

^ The methodology is similar to CI/CD Agile - which is the rage in Tech world - esp when doing R&D

 

[sayareakd]

The only place where Indian missiles can fail is in the warhead stage as many warheads, especially nuclear ones are not tested in terms of success rates and detonation on re-entry. So, India needs to test more nuclear warheads in re-entry mode.

Yeah, we should resume testing, now is the right time to do it. Tesing 20-25 nukes, speciallt TN, would be great.

 

[lcafanboy]

Yeah, we should resume testing, now is the right time to do it. Tesing 20-25 nukes, speciallt TN, would be great.

Why not test a few directly on Porkistan.....

 

[no smoking]

This is the era of digital technology. Missile reliability is much higher than 80% nowadays. The precision manufacturing, vacuum seal, chip based guidance etc make things much more robust.

Indian missile tests have never failed when in advanced stage of development or in user trial. The missile failure has happened only in development stage. This is the case for all ballistic missile, cruise missiles and satellite launch vehicles.

Really?

A Agni-2 test failure in 2017 after it was claimed operational in 2011.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...issile-fails-sources/articleshow/58519987.cms

Here is another one for Prithvi 2010:

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2010/04/prithvi-target-missile-failure-due-to.html

The only place where Indian missiles can fail is in the warhead stage as many warheads, especially nuclear ones are not tested in terms of success rates and detonation on re-entry. So, India needs to test more nuclear warheads in re-entry mode.

That is a interesting. Are you suggesting India didn't give enough test for each type of her re-entry vehicle?

 

[hit&run]

India probably feels it doesn't need to test Agni-5 10-20 times before operationalising it. They could be confident in its effectiveness from 5-6 tests, having confidence in its design. Computer simulation also helps. As another poster said, India ultimately has to do what is right for itself, not what is right for the US, China, Russia or Madagascar.

Tests are done in labs which reduces the frequency of testing them physically. Mangalyaan was conceived and planned in labs and then sent for the real mission.

Unlike olden days when they had to physically test which other member is attributing as some kind of achievement.

 

[Jameson Emoni]

Tests are done in labs which reduces the frequency of testing them physically. Mangalyaan was conceived and planned in labs and then sent for the real mission.

Unlike olden days when they had to physically test which other member is attributing as some kind of achievement.

You are missing the point. Indian technology is not as good as Chinese. That is why India sent a successful mission to Mars without even testing it. On the other hand, China is still testing its Mars mission. Unless you test it a billion times, your technology is not going to be as good as Chinese.

 

[no smoking]

You are talking of user trial here. Same is done in India with Prithvi series and Dhanush.

No, I mean both stages: development and user trial.

You would not say this if you know how India work. India is not in a liberty to produce prototype in numbers. Every system and sub system needs to be test on a deployed platform before integrating it in upcoming production variant or the next series.

You won't say so if you really know the missile development program.
For some sub system, yes, you can do so as they won't affect other sub-systems working, such as navigation, sensor, some internal controlling.
For some such as new type of engine, new fuel, new shell material, ect, they will impact others performance. You have to adjust the parameters of others or re-design the others. For these changes, you have to build a new missile to go through series test again.

If you do follow the BRAHMOS test or Agni test, you would notice that with every test, we are testing one new component or other. But these systems are already in deployed state. For India, none of missile system are freezed.

Oh, please, Brahmos is based on Russian tech. Any development we saw on Brahmos was already showed up by Russian. All your tests did are clarifying Russian work.

Regarding your Agni tests, please tell me what new component DRDO test on third test and forth test.

 

[Jameson Emoni]

No, I mean both stages: development and user trial.






You won't say so if you really know the missile development program.
For some sub system, yes, you can do so as they won't affect other sub-systems working, such as navigation, sensor, some internal controlling.
For some such as new type of engine, new fuel, new shell material, ect, they will impact others performance. You have to adjust the parameters of others or re-design the others. For these changes, you have to build a new missile to go through series test again.



Oh, please, Brahmos is based on Russian tech. Any development we saw on Brahmos was already showed up by Russian. All your tests did are clarifying Russian work.

Regarding your Agni tests, please tell me what new component DRDO test on third test and forth test.

Share the blueprint of Chinese def missile. So that we can compare it with Agni-V.

 

[Kchontha]

Agni v is the much touted and hyped missile system of this decade and a pain in the enemies a** especially Chinese. :blah:

 

[Kshithij]

Really?

A Agni-2 test failure in 2017 after it was claimed operational in 2011.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...issile-fails-sources/articleshow/58519987.cms

Here is another one for Prithvi 2010:

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2010/04/prithvi-target-missile-failure-due-to.html




That is a interesting. Are you suggesting India didn't give enough test for each type of her re-entry vehicle?

The failure of Prithvi missile was actually a failure of AAD interception test, not ballistic missile test.

Agni 2 failed twice due to quality problems in minor parts which were made in early 2000s. No amount of testing can solve it. The only thing that can solve it is by taking no chances and maintaining quality control of each and every part during manufacturing.

About re-entry vehicle, India has tested the RV several times but the nuclear bomba has not been tested. It is important to know if the explosion will be triggered at the right time when the re-entry speed is 15Mach or more.

 

[Chinmoy]

No, I mean both stages: development and user trial.






You won't say so if you really know the missile development program.
For some sub system, yes, you can do so as they won't affect other sub-systems working, such as navigation, sensor, some internal controlling.
For some such as new type of engine, new fuel, new shell material, ect, they will impact others performance. You have to adjust the parameters of others or re-design the others. For these changes, you have to build a new missile to go through series test again.



Oh, please, Brahmos is based on Russian tech. Any development we saw on Brahmos was already showed up by Russian. All your tests did are clarifying Russian work.

Regarding your Agni tests, please tell me what new component DRDO test on third test and forth test.

Few post back you yourself pointed towards a Agni 2 failed test. Do you know why it failed or what was the cause of failure?

Do you know that A2 was of whooping 24 tons when inducted, which has been brought down to 16 tons as of now?
Do you know that at time of induction A2 was with a conventional warhead which was later upgraded to PBV?
Do you know that A2 was a MRBM during induction which was later upgraded to IRBM status?
Do you know that A4 is an upgraded A2 in real?

Ofcourse you would not know this. As earlier said, India is not at a liberty to carry on innumerable prototype tests. So India would have to carry on developmental as well as user tests on same system.

And BTW, don't burn yourself about what we are doing in BRAHMOS. It was a Russian system which we are converting into our own. As of now 60% of its subsystems are India. In the latest test, India tested its home grown seeker instead of Russian on it.

 

[Kshithij]

Few post back you yourself pointed towards a Agni 2 failed test. Do you know why it failed or what was the cause of failure?

Do you know that A2 was of whooping 24 tons when inducted, which has been brought down to 16 tons as of now?
Do you know that at time of induction A2 was with a conventional warhead which was later upgraded to PBV?
Do you know that A2 was a MRBM during induction which was later upgraded to IRBM status?
Do you know that A4 is an upgraded A2 in real?

Ofcourse you would not know this. As earlier said, India is not at a liberty to carry on innumerable prototype tests. So India would have to carry on developmental as well as user tests on same system.

And BTW, don't burn yourself about what we are doing in BRAHMOS. It was a Russian system which we are converting into our own. As of now 60% of its subsystems are India. In the latest test, India tested its home grown seeker instead of Russian on it.

As of now, India has indigenised 85% of Brahmos. All except the engine has been indigenised. Engine may also be possible to be indigenised and India has shown the capabilities in Akash missile (but with solid fuel).

 

[TheVarun]

It's incredible that some people could still be calling Brahmos a Russian missile, without so much as a qualification! Brahmos is very much a joint venture between two organisations and two countries. The top secret propulsion system is in Russian hands. Everything else has major Indian input including the avionics, software and ground control. Financing of the venture is evenly divided between India and Russia.

 

[Kshithij]

It's incredible that some people could still be calling Brahmos a Russian missile, without so much as a qualification! Brahmos is very much a joint venture between two organisations and two countries. The top secret propulsion system is in Russian hands. Everything else has major Indian input including the avionics, software and ground control. Financing of the venture is evenly divided between India and Russia.

Even the propulsion is in Indian hands. But being a JV, India wants to allow Russia to have some role.

 

[no smoking]

As of now, India has indigenised 85% of Brahmos. All except the engine has been indigenised. Engine may also be possible to be indigenised and India has shown the capabilities in Akash missile (but with solid fuel).

The manufacturer of Brhmos doesn't agree with you.

"As of today 65 per cent of the value (in BrahMos) is created in India. We started with a very low 10-12 per cent indigenisation and today we have reached 65 per cent. In another six months, we would be close to 75 per cent," BrahMos Aerospace managing director and CEO Sudhir Mishra said at the handing over ceremony of the prototype Quad launcher manufactured by L&T Defence,

Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...sation-in-six-months/articleshow/64051650.cms

 

[no smoking]

Few post back you yourself pointed towards a Agni 2 failed test. Do you know why it failed or what was the cause of failure?

Do you know that A2 was of whooping 24 tons when inducted, which has been brought down to 16 tons as of now?

Do you know that at time of induction A2 was with a conventional warhead which was later upgraded to PBV?
Do you know that A2 was a MRBM during induction which was later upgraded to IRBM status?
Do you know that A4 is an upgraded A2 in real?

Ofcourse you would not know this.

Sorry, dear, we already knew most of these as early as 2002, for the rest, we knew them no late than 2010.
So, please don't make yourselves a joke.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00963402.2002.11460559
https://defpost.com/agni-ii-successfully-launched-by-the-strategic-forces-command/

As earlier said, India is not at a liberty to carry on innumerable prototype tests. So India would have to carry on developmental as well as user tests on same system.

The test was carried out by Strategic Forces Command, that is a user trial, not some new development test.

And BTW, don't burn yourself about what we are doing in BRAHMOS. It was a Russian system which we are converting into our own. As of now 60% of its subsystems are India. In the latest test, India tested its home grown seeker instead of Russian on it.

Yes, 65% of its subsystems are made in India based on Russian blue print, that is what JV is about.

 

[Kshithij]

The manufacturer of Brhmos doesn't agree with you.

"As of today 65 per cent of the value (in BrahMos) is created in India. We started with a very low 10-12 per cent indigenisation and today we have reached 65 per cent. In another six months, we would be close to 75 per cent," BrahMos Aerospace managing director and CEO Sudhir Mishra said at the handing over ceremony of the prototype Quad launcher manufactured by L&T Defence,

Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...sation-in-six-months/articleshow/64051650.cms

Here read about 85% indigenous Brahmos-

http://www.janes.com/article/79884/india-s-l-t-develops-inclined-launcher-for-brahmos-cruise-missile