Agni II

[Singh]

Yes there is. Solid-fuel rockets do not need a length prep time like liquid-fuel rockets do. Solid fuel rockets are mobile and easily transportable, and liquid-fuel rockets are not. Surely you see the benefits.

Yep I see the benefit but I don't see the necessity.
Surely you see my point.

 

[Koji]

Yep I see the benefit but I don't see the necessity.
Surely you see my point.

You don't see the necessity eh? Then any country with half a brain will target your stationary liquid-fueled ballistic missiles. By the time India can launch a retaliation strike, the enemy would've already sent a second barrage because it has to fuel (taking nearly a full day) to prepare its missiles.

 

[Rage]

I'm very curious, Agni-II has a quite large ratio of length to diameter , why ?

Because the first stage, with a length of 10.5 m, a body diameter of 1.0 m and a weight of around 10,800 kg is similar to that used on the SLV-3, which also serves as an expendable launch system. The second stage has a length of about 4.8 m, a body diameter of 1.0 m and a weight of around 4,200 kg, with a motor burnout time of about 30 seconds; and the payload section has a length of 3.8 m and a body diameter of 0.8 m and is believed to be carrying a separating 200 kT nuclear warhead that weighs around 500 kg. Additionally, it is now reported that a new solid propellant first stage motor with a diameter of 1.8 m may be used, with the existing Agni-II stages forming the second and third stages.

That events in 1999 (specifcally, the Kargil war) coerced the DRDO into improvising and quickly developing and operationalising the Agni-II missile, that used the new light weight TN weapon, albeit using the old RV-Mk.1- that was designed and optimised for a heavier 1,000 Kg boosted fission payload- is also deductible from old pictures released by the DRDO [Fission weapons are dense and spherical in shape, whereas TN weapons have lower density and elongated in shape yet very high yield to weight ratio].

However, the new, RV, the MRV-Mk.2, is designed with the intent of making use of enlarged payloads, incorporating future anti-ballistic missile counter-measures, and pressurised vessels for about 200 kg. of liquid propellant to serve as High Altitude Motors for propulsion and v correction. At least one variant also uses a set of solid fuelled impulse cartridges for velocity trimming.

It is interesting to note also that most long-range missiles developed by other countries use RVs that are 'passive ballistic mass', implying their accuracy depends on the ability of the missile’s RV-bus to place RV's on precise ballistic trajectories. The Agni-RV Mk.2 on the other hand, is more advanced because it embodies propulsion, navigation and control all the way to the target, occasioning the

Other metrics I could think that, for the sum of its parts, were factored into consideration were: normal force, pitching, drag, static margin and hinge moment.

 

[Singh]

You don't see the necessity eh? Then any country with half a brain will target your stationary liquid-fueled ballistic missiles. By the time India can launch a retaliation strike, the enemy would've already sent a second barrage because it has to fuel (taking nearly a full day) to prepare its missiles.

Apparently when in war, a country with a full brain, which lacking a second strike capability will not hesitate to fire missiles first.

 

[sandeepdg]

Are you for real ???? What's up with the lame examples ?

We tested a nuclear device in 74, sent sats in the space and yet we can't have an operationalized BM 10 years after its first successful test because it is "complex" and "US took 15 years to make its first BM in 50s".


On our west and east are nuclear armed countries with operationalized and effective ballistic missiles. Very nations with whom we have already gone to war.
India is not developing something which none of our neighbours don't have. The surprising thing is that India's missile programme started before Pakistan acquired its first ballistic missile. And China already has boomers with we are yet to operationalize a single IRBM.

DRDO is a failed organization. Come to terms with the truth

Well, don't blabber before you understand the point, pal ! Firstly, Pakistan didn't make any missile at home, they bought them from the Chinese and North Koreans. China started its BM program 25 years before India did. No wonder both of them are already armed with BMs. And those examples mean that I am just comparing our missile with theirs, if they can take so long for their first BM, don't be surprised if we did !! And the nuke test in 74' was a show of strength to show the world that we also can develop nuclear weapons due to tensions during the Cold War era, neither the Chinese nor the Pakis had any BMs back then either. I never said that the DRDO is not to blame, but that's what the problem is with most government run institutions in this country. U and me can do nothing to change it, mate !! And please don't get hyper with your thoughts, just cool down a bit..

 

[mattster]

Lots of passion on this forum about this failure. that's good to see.
and Koji is always "true to form" and needling us just when we are all pissed off about this failure. I like Koji....at least he is consistent, which is more than I can say about DRDO.

The only problem is that its all conjecture; Does anyone here on this forum have any inside sources in the defense circles, MOD, DRDO, that can find out what being said around the grapevine ??

Are there still problems about the 2nd stage separation or was this about a flaw in the guidance. I am not interested in members private theories of what happened.

 

[Daredevil]

The only problem is that its all conjecture; Does anyone here on this forum have any inside sources in the defense circles, MOD, DRDO, that can find out what being said around the grapevine ??

Are there still problems about the 2nd stage separation or was this about a flaw in the guidance. I am not interested in members private theories of what happened.

It will take at least couple of days for DRDO to come out with a statement after thorough analysis if what has gone wrong. But people have already started shooting off their mouths.

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

It will take at least couple of days for DRDO to come out with a statement after thorough analysis if what has gone wrong. But people have already started shooting off their mouths.

Couple of days for what? To cook up some good story? Oh common! For how long huh? for how long will we keep saving DRDO's tail?

I don't doubt 1 bit that there are brilliant minds there, but its just that the organization doesn't have a good management. World's premier defence research organizations(Lockheed martin, Northrup, Boeing, Sukhoi or Mig) have awesome corporate management competing against each other, hence forced to produce results. Here we have a DRDO which is not answerable to anyone.

Its not that other countries do not have a failed missile test or something. Its just that there are some failures you need to keep a secret from public just to keep the morale high or atleast to keep the image safe.

 

[bengalraider]

It will take at least couple of days for DRDO to come out with a statement after thorough analysis if what has gone wrong. But people have already started shooting off their mouths.

i second that! there are literally thousands of sensors involved in any missile test , in order to give anybody the true picture of what happened during the night test the DRDO first has to analyze & interlink the data from all these sensors and co-relate them with past findings, this takes time.

 

[abmind]

A car rolled out from an assembly plant too has so many sensors forget about a plane. It is sad to note that the sensors fail from a succesful design. If that is the case, let them recover the cost from the sensor manufacturer.

I have tough time to understand their vision, Can any experts from defence analyse? How does DRDO make country prosperous?

DRDO Vision : Make India prosperous by establishing world class science and technology base and provide our Defence Services decisive edge by equipping them with internationally competitive systems and solutions..

 

[Sridhar]

Agni-II fails to make the mark at trial by night

Bhubhneswar: In a major setback for the Indian missile programme, the first night trial of the nuclear-capable Agni-II on Monday has failed to hit the target. It fell off after embarking on a mid-air journey for nearly 90 km from Wheeler Island in Bhadrak district off the Orissa coast, about 160 km from here. The missile was test fired at 7.50pm.

The army was testing the missile after sunset to demonstrate whether it could be fired whenever required, defense officials said. The surface-to-surface Agni II missile is capable of delivering a nuclear warhead to targets 2,000 km away, officials said.


Everyone associated with the missile were monitoring it from the Defence Research and Development Centre (DRDO) at Chandipur, about 100km from the testing site. They were relieved after Agni had a smooth take-off. The missile had three components. While the first two carried solid fuel, the last one carried the payload, which should have hit the target. After the take-off, there was a smooth first stage separation which gave the missile the necessary momentum to go ahead. But a problem cropped up in the second stage. Though the fuel started burning, the container carrying the fuel did not separate. It failed to give the necessary thrust and fell down on its own weight.
On being the reasons for the failure, a DRDO official said, "The missile might have failed to hit its target due to an operational problem. It has nothing to do with the time of the day." An inquiry has been started to find out why the mission failed.
"There could be a thousand reasons for the debacle," the DRDO official said. "We have to find out whether the material was at fault or whether there was a mistake on somebody's part. We have started investigating the case," he said.


Agni-II fails to make the mark at trial by night - dnaindia.com

 

[Sridhar]

Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) sources told The Hindu that some malfunction occurred after 60 seconds when the missile reached up to an altitude of 20 kms following which it nosedived. The fact that the first stage, a replica of the SLV-3 (first stage), functioned well showed it was robust. “Something went wrong after the first stage”, the sources added.
A few seconds of malfunctioning, probably in the control system, had affected the normal thrust and resulted in the missile losing its speed. The snag resulted in the high dynamic vehicle becoming uncontrollable subsequently. The problem might have occurred either during separation or ignition of the second stage.
DRDO constituted a special team to analyse the cause of failure. It might take at least 10 days to pinpoint the actual cause and come to a definite conclusion

The Hindu : News / National : Agni-II night trial ends in failure

 

[Sridhar]

Guys , a kind request let us discuss the techincalities of the failure here and take the DRDO bashing and its privatization to the DRDO thread.

 

[NSG_Blackcats]

Couple of days for what? To cook up some good story? Oh common! For how long huh? for how long will we keep saving DRDO's tail?

The missile was fired by the Strategic Force of Indian Army in the guidance of DRDO officials. They don’t have any intention of making up stories. Otherwise they could have claimed the success of the test. The common man would never have got any clue of that.

Here we have a DRDO which is not answerable to anyone.

Who told you DRDO is not answerable to anyone? But the problem in India is people jumped with their gun too quickly. The same was the case when in one of the test Brahmos failed to hit its target.

Its not that other countries do not have a failed missile test or something. Its just that there are some failures you need to keep a secret from public just to keep the morale high or atleast to keep the image safe.

I do not agree with your view that the failure of a missile test must not be disclosed. Here you are contradicting yourself. If failures are not disclosed how can you fix the accountability of DRDO?

 

[proud_hindustani]

It's not easy to make perfect weapons. Multiple failures occurs which is quite common. Many countries too were frustrated in developing perfect and fully reliable weapons. Scientists learn from the errors and make improvements. Creating advanced technologies is quite a tough tasks.

 

[Sabir]

Our neighbour never had a failed missile test. Some of us like things to be done same way here.

 

[p2prada]

Thanks for this very enlightening statistic but Agni is yet to be operationalized and after it is operationalized we are comforted by the fact that it will fail some 40% of the times, which is an improvement from its current failure rate of 99.47444%.

Agni II is operational. Like Rage said, 12 of them are already on the field.

Operative word here is operational missile
And if a missile fails repeatedly, do you add improvements to help fail better ?

The right words would be "help fail lesser."

This is an even more discomforting fact.
As we will field in the future, hopefully, far lesser number of missiles, with far lesser range, of which only 60% maximum will have a successful launch.

That's where we will be using stand off missiles from aircraft for second strike. The sub launched version of Shourya will be our most important missile for deterrence. The rest of them are just building blocks for reaching that goal. India is not expected to have a Minimum Credible Deterrence for a few more years, perhaps a decade.

because it was the Army and MOD that failed to be satisfied with a failed product?

No. Everyone is to blame. For the simple fact that they are a team. If one of them fails, all of them fail. The Army(Navy and Airforce) and MoD have no choice but to go to DRDO for ballistic missiles. The Services must ensure that they are also involved in the project since the beginning. The MoD must ensure there is as little hurdles as possible for successful development of missiles. Eg: They must allot funds in time, reduce red tape and vote bank politics and increase cohesion between the Services and DRDO. Without which there is no use of having a military industry. DRDO must ensure that they have a good management team and work must be carried out and salaries paid based on performance and not tenure or seniority.

Why don't we give a successful quality products to the army on time, and stop blaming them ?

The problem is what is dubbed successful by DRDO may not be dubbed successful by the Army. Both have their own definitions of successful. Without user involvement there is no hope for our military industry complex.

Arjun is a successful development. But, Army does not want the tank even after the tank was built according to the Army's requirements. Who is to blame?

We cannot privatize DRDO. No company in the country can afford to buy such a large company or have the patience to run it. We need another DRDO like company for competition.

 

[Vladimir79]

Well, this reminds me alot of our Bulava debacle. Anyone who doesn't expect failures in missile development is living in an R&D dreamworld. Come back to earth please. If this was a readiness test for an already deployed system it indicates one of two things. Either this missile was prematurely deployed or there is a manufacture defect that needs to be checked on all deployed missiles to make sure this problem isn't pandemic to the fleet. If this was a test of a new guidance system, it doesn't seem the issue has anything to do with that, it was a propulsion failure. One can only hope this is an isolated case.

 

[Singh]

Well, don't blabber before you understand the point, pal ! Firstly, Pakistan didn't make any missile at home, they bought them from the Chinese and North Koreans. China started its BM program 25 years before India did. No wonder both of them are already armed with BMs. And those examples mean that I am just comparing our missile with theirs, if they can take so long for their first BM, don't be surprised if we did !!

So you are saying that

1. Pak and China both have BMs and we don't have a BM.

2. Pak has imported BMs, China started early on their BM tech, we on the other hand apparently "started late" and so don't have a BM.

3. So if there is a war tomorrow, Chinese and the Paks will rain missiles and we we will not be able to retaliate to their missile strikes.

4. We tested nuclear weapons in 1974, Pak tested nuclear weapons in 1998.

5. Pak has BMs in 2009, India doesn't have BMs in 2009.

6. DRDO is awesome ?

I never said that the DRDO is not to blame, but that's what the problem is with most government run institutions in this country. U and me can do nothing to change it, mate !! And please don't get hyper with your thoughts, just cool down a bit..

So you acknowledge that Govt run institutions suck, and so does DRDO.
Isn't it time to bury DRDO ? or have PPP viz a viz Defence ?

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Agni II is operational. Like Rage said, 12 of them are already on the field.

As per a US TT 12 TEL's are operational. And is this the same TT that claims solve Kashmir win Astan ?

As per Indian media however this missile is inoperational.

The right words would be "help fail lesser."

Shouldn't we work on already operational missiles like the very potent Prithvi so that they don't fail 40% of the time as they are expected too.

That's where we will be using stand off missiles from aircraft for second strike. The sub launched version of Shourya will be our most important missile for deterrence. The rest of them are just building blocks for reaching that goal. India is not expected to have a Minimum Credible Deterrence for a few more years, perhaps a decade.

As per the IAF, they are the only platform currently available for launching WMDs. And who is to be blamed for this utter travesty ?

No. Everyone is to blame. For the simple fact that they are a team. If one of them fails, all of them fail. The Army(Navy and Airforce) and MoD have no choice but to go to DRDO for ballistic missiles. The Services must ensure that they are also involved in the project since the beginning. The MoD must ensure there is as little hurdles as possible for successful development of missiles. Eg: They must allot funds in time, reduce red tape and vote bank politics and increase cohesion between the Services and DRDO. Without which there is no use of having a military industry. DRDO must ensure that they have a good management team and work must be carried out and salaries paid based on performance and not tenure or seniority.

No one said its going to be easy.
If the DRDO staff can't handle the pressures and the redtape they should publicly resign rather than blowing their own trumpet at every opportunity.

The Army has lost so many lives and the treasury so many billions because of DRDO's failure.

The problem is what is dubbed successful by DRDO may not be dubbed successful by the Army. Both have their own definitions of successful. Without user involvement there is no hope for our military industry complex.
Arjun is a successful development. But, Army does not want the tank even after the tank was built according to the Army's requirements. Who is to blame?

Is the Army corrupt ?
How many successful products DRDO claims it has come up with ?
How many of these products are in service ?

^^Not trick questions

We cannot privatize DRDO. No company in the country can afford to buy such a large company or have the patience to run it. We need another DRDO like company for competition.

Disinvestment.

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Done with the topic.

 

[Yusuf]

Sabir, our neighbor didn't have a failed test as they would never report one and also they signt have to test any for development. They just conduct user trials of missile developed else where