Additional INS Talwar class frigates being IMPORTED, again???

[grampiguy]

When PM Modi has already given his go ahead for building seven P-17A advanced stealth frigates for about USD$ 8 billion, what is the need for this propaganda type news that mentions that Indian Navy is inclined for another 3-4 Talwar type Russian Frigates?

Indian Navy inclined towards three more improved Talwar class frigates - SP's Naval Forces

One has to keep in mind, these frigates are not cheap anymore, a reason that propelled Indian Navy earlier to go for six of these warships. There has been a phenomenal increase in the price by the Russian Shipyard. The price increase was one of the reasons why the last two frigates were delayed in their delivery. The new price of these Talwar class vessels of 4000 ton is almost equal to mighty Shivalik class frigates of 6200 ton.

India to spend $3 billion for 3 more Talwar-class frigates | Russia & India Report

At the same time, GRSE is producing INS Kamorta class corvettes which are closer in size to INS Talwar type vessels. Slight modification and addition of platforms can convert these Kamortas into an equally powerful frigates. Finally, there are shipyards in India like ABG shipyard, Hindustan Shipyard Limited, L&T, Pipavav etc which are desperate for defence shipbuilding orders. But instead of building an indigenous shipbuilding base, why is Indian Navy even thinking of importing billions of dollars worth of frigates?

It is about time for MoD to put its foot down and declare a ban on naval vessel imports anymore. Sub-components are fine but India has enough capacity to build its ships here in Indian shipyards. Indian Navy, please stick to that philosophy henceforth.

 

[SajeevJino]

.

I sure It will not happen again, we can expect more P 17 A orders, Navy is more Indigenous

 

[akshay m]

When PM Modi has already given his go ahead for building seven P-17A advanced stealth frigates for about USD$ 8 billion, what is the need for this propaganda type news that mentions that Indian Navy is inclined for another 3-4 Talwar type Russian Frigates?

Indian Navy inclined towards three more improved Talwar class frigates - SP's Naval Forces

the first of these will be commissioned only in 2022 (hopefully)

One has to keep in mind, these frigates are not cheap anymore, a reason that propelled Indian Navy earlier to go for six of these warships. There has been a phenomenal increase in the price by the Russian Shipyard. The price increase was one of the reasons why the last two frigates were delayed in their delivery. The new price of these Talwar class vessels of 4000 ton is almost equal to mighty Shivalik class frigates of 6200 ton.


India to spend $3 billion for 3 more Talwar-class frigates | Russia & India Report

they are costly because they are based on the newer admiral gregorovich class frigates.
also they will have a vls sam system

i will write more on the new features that later

At the same time, GRSE is producing INS Kamorta class corvettes which are closer in size to INS Talwar type vessels. Slight modification and addition of platforms can convert these Kamortas into an equally powerful frigates.[/quote]


where do you you propose GRSE shall produce all these,which dry dock??
they already have 12 kamorta's on their order books ,not to mention 3 shivaliks

Finally, there are shipyards in India like ABG shipyard, Hindustan Shipyard Limited, L&T, Pipavav etc which are desperate for defence shipbuilding orders. But instead of building an indigenous shipbuilding base, why is Indian Navy even thinking of importing billions of dollars worth of frigates?

as for the private shipyard ,well the PSU's create a huge ruckus when the private shipyards are given new orders

but even they will soon be booked to the brim.
one of them will be given the deal for about 6-12(i don't remember exactly how much, will clarify soon)

one will get the p75i (pipapev or L&T)

one will get the 4 LHD/LPD deal

CSL ,let them concentrate on the VIKRANT ,besides they also have 12 ships gas and shale corp.on order not to mention coast guard vessels.
one of the private units will also get the deal for OPV's (most probably pipapev)

HSL ,they have a large research/missle tracker ship construction on
and not counting the 4 SSBN's and 6 SSN's

GSL has their 12 minesweepers project not to mention coast guard orders too

MDL has 7 Bangaluru class destroyers on order, and they are yet to deliver the scorpenes.thhey may also get a follow on order for the scorpenes

so where do you propose you build theses frigtes also considering that our dry docks are all ordered

also tell me where the navy will do their refits and repairs if you fill all dry docks

It is about time for MoD to put its foot down and declare a ban on naval vessel imports anymore. Sub-components are fine but India has enough capacity to build its ships here in Indian shipyards. Indian Navy, please stick to that philosophy henceforth.

as if they need you to advise them.

remember the russian frigates are already under production .
so they are not likely to be delayed this time.

the navy has brought foreign ships only when absolutely necessary.
please give your advise to the air force and army . they really need it

please answer my questions



remember that the navy has been the most supportive of indegenisation so far

and they have imported only when absolutely needed
so instead of being grumpy and banging your head about, try to dissect


our shipyards are filled to the brim.
besides remember that the experience and tech upgradation of the yantar shipyard has been done with indian money(talwars)
so migt as well take advantage.

 

[Bheeshma]

The deal only makes sense if these are cheaper than P-17a's. Else I would rather have L&T build 3 more P-17's. they need to get into Destroyer/Frigates.

 

[grampiguy]

the first of these will be commissioned only in 2022 (hopefully)

they are costly because they are based on the newer admiral gregorovich class frigates.
also they will have a vls sam system

where do you you propose GRSE shall produce all these,which dry dock??
they already have 12 kamorta's on their order books ,not to mention 3 shivaliks

as for the private shipyard ,well the PSU's create a huge ruckus when the private shipyards are given new orders, but even they will soon be booked to the brim. one of them will be given the deal for about 6-12(i don't remember exactly how much, will clarify soon) one will get the p75i (pipapev or L&T), one will get the 4 LHD/LPD deal, CSL ,let them concentrate on the VIKRANT ,besides they also have 12 ships gas and shale corp.on order not to mention coast guard vessels. one of the private units will also get the deal for OPV's (most probably pipapev)

HSL ,they have a large research/missle tracker ship construction on and not counting the 4 SSBN's and 6 SSN's

GSL has their 12 minesweepers project not to mention coast guard orders too

MDL has 7 Bangaluru class destroyers on order, and they are yet to deliver the scorpenes.thhey may also get a follow on order for the scorpenes

so where do you propose you build theses frigtes also considering that our dry docks are all ordered also tell me where the navy will do their refits and repairs if you fill all dry docks

As if they need you to advise them.remember the russian frigates are already under production .so they are not likely to be delayed this time.

the navy has brought foreign ships only when absolutely necessary. please give your advise to the air force and army . they really need it

please answer my questions, our shipyards are filled to the brim.
besides remember that the experience and tech upgradation of the yantar shipyard has been done with indian money(talwars)
so migt as well take advantage.

-
Let me ask you some counter-questions on all of your Assumed Facts.

Since when have these Admiral Grigorovich class frigates become superior to INS Shivalik class frigates?? Neither in size, capability, nor in sub-components, radar, guns or whatever, they stand anywhere near Shivaliks. So, how come in terms of cost they come pretty close? And who told you Russians will not increase price again?? Are you sure about this? Three-four frigates will take minimum a decade in delivery and by then, the price would depend upon many factors which are almost all beyond Indian control.

Further, Hindustan Shipyard Limited and Shipbuilding Center (SBC Vizag) which is building nuclear subs are two different entities. Don't mix them both. HSL is a loss making entity and remains in the list of sick PSUs of India. Additionally, Indian Navy takes its ships for refit and repair in its own naval dockyards. Only MLU and other major works are conducted in various major shipyards. So, space is there to build these warships in Indian shipyards.

None of the contracts that you are mentioning about private shipyards, about LHD/LPD or others, have yet been awarded by GoI. So, private shipbuilders are waiting and waiting and waiting for any defence order to come. L&T has been losing money in Katupalli Shipyard while waiting for the submarine and LHD order. ABG is looking for loan restructuring because it doesn't have enough defence orders and it's civilians ship orders were cancelled in majority. Bharti is in same league. Alcock - Ashdown is on the auction. Pipavav has actually been sold by its promoters. If Indian Navy decides to build these ships in India, it will not take much for these shipyards to increase capacity for building them locally. In fact, Pipavav was reported to be in collaboration with Russian ship design bureau to build frigates and OPVs in India. As of today, barring few OPVs and training ship orders, none of the private shipyards have got any major contract from GoI. It is "all in the air", as the saying goes.

Instead of building Indian private shipyards' capacity, this move to import warships seems to be aimed at strengthening Russian shipyards, which already have revitalized themselves with Indian money. If Yantar shipyard was upgraded with Indian money, so was the Sevmash shipyard or Amur shipyard. So, are you suggesting that India should build the next aircraft carrier at Sevmash because they will have economy of scale?? Sevmash will be too eager to do it, given the nature of their grovelling before Indian Navy so far? Also, why build MCMVs at Goa Shipyard Limited then, India can get them also through economy of scale from Russia/South Korea !!!

You say public shipyards make much hoohaa when private shipyards get shipbuilding orders. Should Indian MoD give a damn to these noises? What happens to these public shipyards when ships are imported?? Why do they all go silent then? Do they have ulterior motives?

Mate, after an enormous effort through decades, Indian Navy has transformed itself from a buyers navy to a builder's navy. The need now is to enhance this feature, not roll it back. Indian Navy can't go Indian Air Force's road.

 

[akshay m]

-
Let me ask you some counter-questions on all of your Assumed Facts.

Since when have these Admiral Grigorovich class frigates become superior to INS Shivalik class frigates?? Neither in size, capability, nor in sub-components, radar, guns or whatever, they stand anywhere near Shivaliks. So, how come in terms of cost they come pretty close? And who told you Russians will not increase price again?? Are you sure about this? Three-four frigates will take minimum a decade in delivery and by then, the price would depend upon many factors which are almost all beyond Indian control.

Further, Hindustan Shipyard Limited and Shipbuilding Center (SBC Vizag) which is building nuclear subs are two different entities. Don't mix them both. HSL is a loss making entity and remains in the list of sick PSUs of India. Additionally, Indian Navy takes its ships for refit and repair in its own naval dockyards. Only MLU and other major works are conducted in various major shipyards. So, space is there to build these warships in Indian shipyards.

None of the contracts that you are mentioning about private shipyards, about LHD/LPD or others, have yet been awarded by GoI. So, private shipbuilders are waiting and waiting and waiting for any defence order to come. L&T has been losing money in Katupalli Shipyard while waiting for the submarine and LHD order. ABG is looking for loan restructuring because it doesn't have enough defence orders and it's civilians ship orders were cancelled in majority. Bharti is in same league. Alcock - Ashdown is on the auction. Pipavav has actually been sold by its promoters. If Indian Navy decides to build these ships in India, it will not take much for these shipyards to increase capacity for building them locally. In fact, Pipavav was reported to be in collaboration with Russian ship design bureau to build frigates and OPVs in India. As of today, barring few OPVs and training ship orders, none of the private shipyards have got any major contract from GoI. It is "all in the air", as the saying goes.

Instead of building Indian private shipyards' capacity, this move to import warships seems to be aimed at strengthening Russian shipyards, which already have revitalized themselves with Indian money. If Yantar shipyard was upgraded with Indian money, so was the Sevmash shipyard or Amur shipyard. So, are you suggesting that India should build the next aircraft carrier at Sevmash because they will have economy of scale?? Sevmash will be too eager to do it, given the nature of their grovelling before Indian Navy so far? Also, why build MCMVs at Goa Shipyard Limited then, India can get them also through economy of scale from Russia/South Korea !!!

You say public shipyards make much hoohaa when private shipyards get shipbuilding orders. Should Indian MoD give a damn to these noises? What happens to these public shipyards when ships are imported?? Why do they all go silent then? Do they have ulterior motives?

Mate, after an enormous effort through decades, Indian Navy has transformed itself from a buyers navy to a builder's navy. The need now is to enhance this feature, not roll it back. Indian Navy can't go Indian Air Force's road.

all i am saying that the indian navy knows what is good for itself unlike the other 2 services.
they have acheived it by themselves without the MOD's interference

as for orders i mentioned to pvt shipyards ,it is only a maater of time.

as for the adm grigorovich ,i got confused with admiral gorshkov frigates

guns

are you sure ,,

lets check again

i will open a talwar and shivalik comparison thread soon.

i will put all the facts in one thread

sorry if i seemed arrogant,was in bad mood,had an irritating day yesterday

 

[Illusive]

I don't think its happening, 7 P17A's are on order. Navy should look towards building quickly fast attack missile boats and Minesweepers.

 

[akshay m]

I don't think its happening, 7 P17A's are on order. Navy should look towards building quickly fast attack missile boats and Minesweepers.

well ,we haven't heard any thing form the navy.

so don't know what the russians are saying.
perhaps they were smoking ,perhaps not

 

[sgarg]

I don't think its happening, 7 P17A's are on order. Navy should look towards building quickly fast attack missile boats and Minesweepers.

Minesweepers is a big issue. Missile boats are not needed anymore. Bigger ships are better which can stay on the seas longer.