ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

Which role suits LCA 'Tejas' more than others from following options?

  • Interceptor-Defend Skies from Intruders.

    Votes: 342 51.3%
  • Airsuperiority-Complete control of the skies.

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • Strike-Attack deep into enemy zone.

    Votes: 24 3.6%
  • Multirole-Perform multiple roles.

    Votes: 284 42.6%

  • Total voters
    667
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stew98

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Whatever will be integrated with Tejas MK1A will also be integrated with MK2 and AMCA. The integration code is modular and is transferable. So, the development cost and time for MK1A will be directly reducing development cost and time of MK2
But FOC will be delayed further if it were to be integrated in MK1/A, we can't afford to lose precious pilots and depleting fighter squadrons. Today itself one flying coffin crashed and still pilot is missing.
 

Sancho

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I hope it's for MK2 and not MK1/S. Otherwise endless saga of testing and certification will begin and one more reason for IAF to delay FOC.
FOC already integrated I Derby and Python V, the report is about the potential of adding I Derby ER or Spice bomb kit's that are on offer for the MK1A. If you remember the ADA load config for MK1A, you can see Spice 2000 PGMs, as an option for the inner wingstations, although I hope IAF don't waste it's money on that capability on LCA. There are more useful and suitable things for it.

Any new upgrade standard of any fighter, comes with new capabilities, that needs test and certifications. That's nothing unique for India, but the standard procedure all over the world (see years of Meteor test and integration on Gripen, Rafale and EF for example).
 

ersakthivel

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Sitamaraman is massive failure. She came and spoke big, but she is ruining all the hard work done by Parrikar.
Now correct me if im wrong -
463 crores is 67 mil$ per fighter, which is likely with all accessories.

In comparision, this is the Gripen E's cost -https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/brazil-finalises-468bn-gripen-ng-deal-416586/
4.68 bil$ for 36 fighters, or 130 mil$ per fighter


F-16 cost -https://thediplomat.com/2016/06/us-pakistan-f-16-deal-is-dead-islamabad-mulling-jordan-f-16-fighter-jets-instead/
Pakistan was expected to pay $700 million instead of the original $270 million for the eight F-16 fighter jets
Thats 87.5 mil$ per fighter

Offcourse then there's our great Rafale deal - 220 mil$ per fighter.

And comparision with the Su-30MKI Deal? The Deal was signed for 140 Su-30MKI with HAL in the year 2000. Do you really think a deal in the year 2000 and 18 years later in 2018 will have the same value of money?

And now Sitaraman is actually falling for this crap and making a committe and stuff, delaying it further. And in a couple of months, IAF would be all interested in buying some 100 foriegn fighters in some 15-20 Bil$ deal, that is 150-200 mil$ per fighter.
IAF,
Stupid Indian journos,
Nirmala Sitharaman & Co


should define new green field project, "fighter type Sukhoi 40 MKI",


&


ask Russians to develop it with

1. new composite,
2.all digital quadruple RSS Fly by wire tech ,
3.integrated HMDS enabled high off bore WVR Missile,
4.all glass cockpit,
5.lowest RCS &Highest radar detection range in its class,
6.with 6plus sorties a day, pressure refueling, 45 minutes engine replacement capability,
7.with close to 70% availability,
8.ask them to integrate weapon systems, jammers, engines & radars bought all over from the world,

without specifying any cost,

Once Russians finish development after twenty years,


order just 120 that too in two versions, & say no more orders,



Then Ask Russians for the unit price of the new Su 40 MKI.(including developmental, weapon integrated cost just spread over 123 fighters)


Then with a straight face ask, "why this su 40 MKI is costing double the unit price of PAKFA....

" Ideally it should cost half of PAKFA, Isn't it,,,, ".

Then the core team should watch the Russian reaction

I hope the lead negotiators from our side enter the room with helmet

Somebody in top Indian defence establishment is taking the scientific talent of this country for a ride.


They are fooling Nirmala Sitharaman with pickle jar cost economics.

She too seems convinced, since Tejas MK1A jar is half the size of SU30MKI Jar,

Why is it costing the same,,,

Some one should tell her that the price printed on su 30MKI Jar waS printed two decades before


, hope she understands this monumental stupidity of comparing su 30mki prices negotiated twenty years before, to today's MK1A price,,


Major pitfall of modi government, which is Paking ministries with greenhorns&lawyers who have no technical background.

Honesty alone won't make Indian military aviation industry,

It needs an authoritative visionary
 
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Kshithij

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IAF,
Stupid Indian journos,
Nirmala Sitharaman & Co


should define new green field project, "fighter type Sukhoi 40 MKI",


&


ask Russians to develop it with

1. new composite,
2.all digital quadruple RSS Fly by wire tech ,
3.integrated HMDS enabled high off bore WVR Missile,
4.all glass cockpit,
5.lowest RCS &Highest radar detection range in its class,
6.with 6plus sorties a day, pressure refueling, 45 minutes engine replacement capability,
7.with close to 70% availability,
8.ask them to integrate weapon systems, jammers, engines & radars bought all over from the world,

without specifying any cost,

Once Russians finish development after twenty years,


order just 120 that too in two versions, & say no more orders,



Then Ask Russians for the unit price of the new Su 40 MKI.(including developmental, weapon integrated cost just spread over 123 fighters)


Then with a straight face ask, "why this su 40 MKI is costing double the unit price of PAKFA....

" Ideally it should cost half of PAKFA, Isn't it,,,, ".

Then the core team should watch the Russian reaction

I hope the lead negotiators from our side enter the room with helmet

Somebody in top Indian defence establishment is taking the scientific talent of this country for a ride.


They are fooling Nirmala Sitharaman with pickle jar cost economics.

She too seems convinced, since Tejas MK1A jar is half the size of SU30MKI Jar,

Why is it costing the same,,,

Some one should tell her that the price printed on su 30MKI Jar waS printed two decades before


, hope she understands this monumental stupidity of comparing su 30mki prices negotiated twenty years before, to today's MK1A price,,


Major pitfall of modi government, which is Paking ministries with greenhorns&lawyers who have no technical background.

Honesty alone won't make Indian military aviation industry,

It needs an authoritative visionary
The cost of making Mk1 has already been provided by the government. In fact, the cost of Mk1 has been significantly lower. But it is the upgrade to MK1A that costs over 250 crore more is the real concern.

Radar costs about 4 million dollars, roughly 27crore

RCS and other features were already present in MK1 with no addition in Mk1A

Availability of 70% is not relevant as the base cost of tejas is in question, not maintenance charges.

Composite has not been changed from MK1 to MK1A as that will cause change in centre of gravity

6+ sorties a day is required in all fighters. Even Su30 or Mirage 2000 can do that during intense conflict. Considering the low flying time of Tejas of maximum 2 hours a sortie with fuel tanks, 6 sortie is not that hard. Su30 can travel 5000km at a stretch and yet take off again.

All glass cockpit is not a high investment and definitely not something that ca explain $35 million dollar excess cost

Weapons and jammers integration is a difficult thing but yet it is not too expensive as it just requires labour cost of few hundred engineers for a year or so. It is mostly software related.

The question is where did the 20000 crore for 83 MK1A be used? The additions like AESA radar, EW jammers etc can justify about 4000 crores of it. Some other additions like IFR proble, additional assembly line and manufacturing capacity, automation can further justify 6000 crores investment. But where did the rest 10000 crores go?
 

ersakthivel

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The cost of making Mk1 has already been provided by the government. In fact, the cost of Mk1 has been significantly lower. But it is the upgrade to MK1A that costs over 250 crore more is the real concern.

Radar costs about 4 million dollars, roughly 27crore

RCS and other features were already present in MK1 with no addition in Mk1A

Availability of 70% is not relevant as the base cost of tejas is in question, not maintenance charges.

Composite has not been changed from MK1 to MK1A as that will cause change in centre of gravity

6+ sorties a day is required in all fighters. Even Su30 or Mirage 2000 can do that during intense conflict. Considering the low flying time of Tejas of maximum 2 hours a sortie with fuel tanks, 6 sortie is not that hard. Su30 can travel 5000km at a stretch and yet take off again.

All glass cockpit is not a high investment and definitely not something that ca explain $35 million dollar excess cost

Weapons and jammers integration is a difficult thing but yet it is not too expensive as it just requires labour cost of few hundred engineers for a year or so. It is mostly software related.

The question is where did the 20000 crore for 83 MK1A be used? The additions like AESA radar, EW jammers etc can justify about 4000 crores of it. Some other additions like IFR proble, additional assembly line and manufacturing capacity, automation can further justify 6000 crores investment. But where did the rest 10000 crores go?
Cost of ASEA Radar 27 cores OK. WHAT is the cost of integrating it with ASEA EW suits, weapon systems, flight computer etc,

French asked billions for integrating Indian & Russian weapons on Rafale,

If we use same metrics to compare Rafale & sukhoi prices, we might as well set up another, "price discovery committee" for Rafale as well

Tejas Mk1 As will be twice more reliable than sukhoi in operation. No denying the obvious fact.


Even with two engines sukhoi has a host of engine emergency incidents compared to test flight program of Tejas,

Sukhoi deal was struck when Russia was in dire financial straits, in 1990s price.

That too for a version far inferior to the MKI Version flying today.

We don't know who bore the price of various modifications & how contract was negotiated & what was the total life cycle cost of flanker fleet.


If we take the T 90 DEAL which has was negotiated with no armor, gun TOT, we may have many unpleasant surprises I sukhoi negotiation price as well.


First 40 sukhois imported in the deal had a fifteen year holiday in India, because it has none of MKI specs,

Returned to Russia after MKI development was completed, were these things priced into unit costs are not, ,,,,

Even the flight manuals for su 30 MKI were written BY IAF Pilots.



https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/jet-fighter-costs-a-complex-problem/

Other than stealth & internal bays, Tejas mk1A has almost all top line techs of F35(whose development costs will be divided by 1000s, compared to 83 for MK1A) .

Some ideas about why modern jets cost more.

Unit price of F A 18 bought by Australia (from 1990 to 2005) comes to around 115 million dollar per piece, around 800 cores per fighter, with no ASEA Radar & Advanced EW Suits asked for in Mk1A by IAF.

Mind the fact that Tejas Mk1 As are to be delivered 4 years down the line with attendant inflation, forex escalation risks. Plus all system integration costs of MK1A has to be priced in, on just 83 MK1 As, can't be passed on to mk2.

Development costs of sukhoi is divided by 2000 units built & flown.

It is comical to compare the price of 40 Mk1 built by HAL to the 83 Tejas Mk1A price.



Do you really think HAL has recouped all its resources invested in Tejas project within the cost of 163 cores per piece 40 Mk1 orders,,,,,

Cost of the new assembly line alone comes to around 2000 cores,

So no use comparing Mk1 A price to Mk1,
IAF never raised the issue of 1000 cores per piece Rafale price in comparing with su 30 mki.

We are yet to know whether prices quoted for sukhoi are unit price or total price with 5 yr support, same for Mk1A price

Price of 400 crore per sukhoi is the price negotiated twenty years before. Not now.

It's evident even to a kid, that price of Mk1s are it about recouping entire cost of HAL's Tejas line.

So comparing it with MK1A price, which is for a full blown dedicated new line, new hardware, to Mk1 is useless.


Also with none of the top line techs that go into MK1A, mirage upgrade costs 50 million dollars per piece,

WHY IAF, MOD, Jorunos didn't root for a "price discovery committee" for mirage upgrades, ,,,
 
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stew98

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IAF is like spoiled child. who wants everything but don't wanna pay for added capabilities.
 

Sancho

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Other than stealth & internal bays, Tejas mk1A has almost all top line techs of F35
- integrated EW? No
- multi spectral EW sensors? No
- IRST capability? No
- advanced cockpit displays? No

Having an AESA radar doesn't make MK1A, or Darin 3 Jags anywhere close to latest high tech fighters. It's a 4th gen fighter, with a modernised radar, nothing more.
 

ersakthivel

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- integrated EW? No
- multi spectral EW sensors? No
- IRST capability? No
- advanced cockpit displays? No

Having an AESA radar doesn't make MK1A, or Darin 3 Jags anywhere close to latest high tech fighters. It's a 4th gen fighter, with a modernised radar, nothing more.
What is the percentage of avionics, electronics cost in a modern fighter's cost,,,,,

I too can type so many things on mirage upgrades & tick No boxes against all of them.

& say that 50 million dollar per plane mirage 2000 upgrades don't justify it.
Strangely you will turn your logic 180 degree around & justify it saying it is because mirage delivers nukes, ,,


I have seen your circular logic in my conversations with you in #Tejas_LCA hash tag on Twitter.




http://www.defencenews.in/article/LCA-Tejas-Fighter-Jet-price-can’t-come-down-559503
 

Karthi

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- integrated EW? No
- multi spectral EW sensors? No
- IRST capability? No
- advanced cockpit displays? No

Having an AESA radar doesn't make MK1A, or Darin 3 Jags anywhere close to latest high tech fighters. It's a 4th gen fighter, with a modernised radar, nothing more.
All of these will be in MK2 :biggrin2:
 

BON PLAN

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Give me the break up for all costs comprising final price.
It's not me that said "French needed billions to integrate foreign weaponry". I ask you your source to say that.
Don't rely on me to answer to a question of mine...:scared2:
 

Sancho

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What is the percentage of avionics, electronics cost in a modern fighter's cost,
Lol, you claimed that it would have "almost all top line techs" and now you going back to costs?

The simple fact is, that you don't understand what MK1A is, which is why your comparisons doesn't make any sense.

LCA FOC was initially planned for 2008 and it's techs, like the radar, or EW were also. Now a decade later, FOC is still not inducted, which makes it's techs outdated.
That's where MK1A comes in, which is just a basic modernisation of the MK1 systems and not something to make LCA highly advanced!
A fighter that will be inducted in the 2020s and still has to carry external self protection pods, is not advanced! Mig 29UPGs are technically more capable and they are decades old.

So LCA MK1A is not costly because it is a high tech fighter, but because of the high imported content and the low production of LCA as a whole so far. As I said before, the costs will come down during the MK1A production, but HAL needs to be questioned where the reported 2 times higher price comes from, between FOC and MK1A?
Just as IAF has to question the financial sense in buying a light class low end fighter, with performance shortfalls at that high costs, compared to far more capable MMRCAs at comparable costs, because the government forces them to buy more fighters with reduced budgets! There is no question if IAF wants LCA, but if they can afford it at that costs, next to other more important fighter requirements!

So all that nonsense about LCAs reliability, a fighter that is not even available in full squadron strength, compared to the MKI, the backbone of IAF for a decade with the highest flight hours and multiple times the capability of an LCA is just pointless.
 
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Sancho

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All of these will be in MK2 :biggrin2:
Well at least that's the hope and that's why MK2 is the only version that can be called 4.5th gen or up to the current technical standards. But the level of ignorance of LCAs problems is insane, when you see people hyping it beyond any logical sense and even comparing it to 5th gen fighters. :frusty:

This hype and ignorance is exactly the problem of the whole LCA programme and why it's still not a success today.

LCA as a fighter was never meant to be a high tech, high performance fighter. It's just an indigenous addition at the lower end of the IAF fleet.
The importance of the programme is the industrial side and that it was suppose to give India a modern aviation industry, which sadly didn't happen and why we probably have to wait till MK2 as you correctly said, till the programme can be successful.

But no matter the shortfalls, the initial procurement costs and the laughter around the world, the industrial benefits makes the programme too big / important to fail and we have to push through!
 
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ersakthivel

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It's not me that said "French needed billions to integrate foreign weaponry". I ask you your source to say that.
Don't rely on me to answer to a question of mine...:scared2:
What is the cost of this?

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.hi...cr-govt/story-KiI85qHBzxlm4N59rBWQMP_amp.html

India-specific enhancements in the jet include helmet-mounted sight, radar warning receivers, flight data recorders with enough storage for 10 hours, infra-red search and track systems, jammers, cold engine start capability to operate in Leh, towed decoys to lure incoming missiles away and missile approach warning system, people familiar with the deal said.

Does it cost 100,000 dollars a fighter or 30 Milion dollars a fighter?
 

ersakthivel

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Lol, you claimed that it would have "almost all top line techs" and now you going back to costs?

  • Neither are you any expert in estimating product cost & integration cost of all items specified by IAF For mk1A

The simple fact is, that you don't understand what MK1A is, which is why your comparisons doesn't make any sense.


Simple fact is


you don't have any idea about the

potency of

ASEA Radar integrated,

moderate phased array jammer EW equipped

Least Frontal RCS, highest radome Dia fighter in class

Tejas mk1A in IAF

And go on parroting that Failing to get FOC in 2008 makes Tejas mk1A 3rd generation fighter ,blah, bla,,,,


LCA FOC was initially planned for 2008 and it's techs, like the radar, or EW were also. Now a decade later, FOC is still not inducted, which makes it's techs outdated.
That's where MK1A comes in, which is just a basic modernisation of the MK1 systems and not something to make LCA highly advanced!

Failure of Tejas mk1to get FoC in 2008 has nothing to do with Tejas mk1A, it has everything to do with continued production with major Tejas mk2 features brought into mk1 airframe.


A fighter that will be inducted in the 2020s and still has to carry external self protection pods, is not advanced! Mig 29UPGs are technically more capable and they are decades old.

what matters is not where the self protection pod is, what it does matters.
Multiracial pylons obviate any problem with pylon availability for pod.
So LCA MK1A is not costly because it is a high tech fighter, but because of the high imported content and the low production of LCA as a whole so far. As I said before, the costs will come down during the MK1A production, but HAL needs to be questioned where the reported 2 times higher price comes from, between FOC and MK1A?
Just as IAF has to question the financial sense in buying a light class low end fighter, with performance shortfalls at that high costs, compared to far more capable MMRCAs at comparable costs, because the government forces them to buy more fighters with reduced budgets! There is no question if IAF wants LCA, but if they can afford it at that costs, next to other more important fighter requirements!

So all that nonsense about LCAs reliability, a fighter that is not even available in full squadron strength, compared to the MKI, the backbone of IAF for a decade with the highest flight hours and multiple times the capability of an LCA is just pointless.

Your essaying of stuff on Tejas mk1A has no correlation with ground reality.
 

abingdonboy

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Anyone tracking CAATSA/S400 drama?

US Democrats now pushing too end any possible hope for CAATSA wavier for India and they will be getting back control of the Congress in November.

This is the end for F-16/18/35 hopes in India and likely Gripen also (F414 engine and other parts).


LCA about to get really important.


Kaveri now becomes a critical requirement, LCA project is going to take a huge hit once F404s and 414s stop flying but in the long term India will benefit immensely as will LCA ,MCA and AMCA
 

Sancho

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LCA project is going to take a huge hit once F404s and 414s stop flying but in the long term India will benefit immensely as will LCA ,MCA and AMCA
If we don't have the US engines LCA is indeed in trouble, the only ready alternative would be Russian once and neither Kaveri, nor RD93 offer enough thrust for AMCA. Which then brings back the EJ200 as an option.

https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/eurofighter-ef-2000-typhoon.76395/page-18#post-1442167
 
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