ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Defcon 1]

Does the naval mk2 will become iaf mk2???

If not then we won't even have a prototype for iaf mk2 by 2020.
As of now iaf mk1a will fly around 2020.

IAF and IN versions will have minor differences. NP1 is only about 15% different from IAF LSPs and PVs.
Prototype for IAF Mk2 might not be needed by 2020, since current IAF+IN requirement will keep LCA production line busy till at least 2028. Also Mk1A is scheduled to enter production by 2020, not fly.

There is one though. We will demand TOT for engine tech.
If they were going for a new engine from scratch they should have already started.
But they didn't and currently have no plans to .
That means Kaveri has to be revived.

Kaveri is dead, never to be revived. Two successor programs exists, with status unclear. They are not kaveri. Maybe engine TOT can be done for successor projects. But answer me this:
1. If F16 wins, its engine is not of the same class that we require from a Kaveri successor for AMCA. What will you do with its engine TOT?
2. If Gripen wins, they don't have their own engine. How will you get the TOT?

You can try to make them give us TOT for F414 or another Kaveri class engine with the single engine project, yes. But then again. You can do so with any other weapon procurement as well. This is why I said there is no relation between single engine fighter RFI and Kaveri

 

[ersakthivel]

You know when i said "considering Americans don't back out on ToT". I was putting very mildly. Anyway the way i see it there is a Catch 22 situation. I tell why:

1. IAF is yet to start behaving like Navy on long term planning wrt. to indigenisation.

2. Government has very serious requirement to meet in form of turbofan tech for AMCA. AMCA today is very much stalled because of lack of clarity. Right now i can't see from where we can even get it? And if at all IAF will agree to F-414 for AMCA is something baffles me.

3. Government needs to make geo-political alliances to garner support on our own fight on terror. And we know no one will come to our side unless we give them something to bite on.

I really don't see how government could manage all these conflicting situation without pressing thumb on at least one.

http://idrw.org/india-can-finally-drop-act-of-limited-range-of-brahmos/#more-113820

This article stating that brahmos will have a range of 600 Km alone makes the F-16, gripen buy redundant for strike purpose!!!

But the circus is getting bigger,

http://idrw.org/boeing-says-iaf-inq...oming-soon-hopes-build-200-india/#more-113888

Both F-16, F-18 are decades old & a generation behind RSS fly by wire tejas, (with low RCS) in aerodynamic concept.

Gripen NG(which is IAF favourite) is just tejas mk2 & nothing else.

Buying N reactors, transport planes from US alone will be more than enough for the "apology" of strategic ties US is offering to us.

Now Do you think, Rusiians will accede to our request of mating existing IAF weapons(largely of russian origin ) with F-16 or F-18? NEVER.

So we now have to buy ubber costly western weapons with these foreign fighters!!!

So I see no point in IAF stalling the second production line for tejas & importing four , five decades old, refurbished fighters with many times larger RCS & IR signatures than tejas

Tejas scores in low RCS & low IR & is a perfect fit for the forward airfields along indian western borders from where Mig-21s were operating for 5 decades.

US needs higher ranges to hit farther targets in missions abroad,

All targets for IAF sit right across the border most within tejas range.

We have Su-30 MKI, rafale for deep strike, SO why we ned another single engine or double engined plane is a mystery to me,

Especially when we can have 1000 plus Brahmos, What roles do these fighters meet? for the prohibitive cost penalty they impose on IAF?

Also IAF needs at least 400 fighters for air defence over indian skies all the time, where tejas range is more than enough.

So there is a need & there is a product , but instead of backing it with full force, we see something else.

http://www.business-standard.com/article/printer-friendly-version?article_id=112122602012_1

We dont know whether the IAF or Govt have any interest in sanctioning the 500 cr neded for the development of Kaveri for AURA, or whether IAF has changed the specs of AURA to disqualify kaveri from that project too!!!

Unlike some who says that Kaveri is dead, the above link serves the indispensability of kaveri for india's future. AURA, Tejas, Mig-29 needs them.

IAF has already shot down the proposal to arm 5th gen stealth AMCA with two 80 Kn kaveri engine(stating that they want 1.5 mach super cruise speed which is not possible with kaveri, & efusing to toe the tranche-1, tranche-2 line for AMCA as well), while blithely spending billions on non stealth, 4.5th gen rafale, whose engines have just 75 Kn thrust each!!!

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/tenders/viewTender.jsp?paramMicro=11203

EOI for Manufacturing & Assembly of 80 Kn thrust engines dated 15.06.2015 13:56:40

Tender no-GTRE/KPG/PMO/EOI-01/2015

 

[cannonfodder]

DM needs to justify why another single jet fighter of similar capability is selected when we have almost done developing one. Use ur rights otherwise let ur own money go down the drain.

What will you write to DM that he doesn't already know?

Read @ersakthivel previous posts.

How is LCA dead? It has 120 confirmed orders+ 40 aircraft requirement from navy for Mk2. Once we pass 2020, IAF will order its share of Mk2 as well. The production rate of 16 fighters per annum is good and around the world, fighters are produced at same or less rate, except some US fighter aircraft. Kindly explain why do you call LCA dead.

This 200-300 foreign single jet RFI has been floated with justification of getting AC engine ToT/AESA Radar ToT. This is what I responded to - No country is going to hand over that AC tech easily to India. At max, u will end up assembling some engine parts. If u really want it, learn it yourself.

Also, for some people who are advocating buying foreign single engine jet will somehow kill Kaveri, they need to remember Kaveri is already dead, Single engine jet or not. Even if this RFI was not present, DRDO has stopped work on Kaveri. They themselves don't think Kaveri will ever power an Indian jet. So there is no way, we can continue R&D on Kaveri as dude007 is advocating for. The only hope is to get a foreign company to complete Kaveri so that it can be installed on an Indian fighter plane. Or we need to start a new engine program. There is no relation between Kaveri and single engine fighter RFI.

 

[ersakthivel]

So this 200 odd foreign fighters will curtail the interest of indian & foreign pvt sector players to participate in the production of 20 odd 80 Kn kaveri engines, knowing well tejas program is being led to a closure by IAF

 

[Defcon 1]

DM needs to justify why another single jet fighter of similar capability is selected when we have almost done developing one. Use ur rights otherwise let ur own money go down the drain.



Read @ersakthivel previous posts.

The capability is not similar. You just don't know about the capability difference. Kindly look at capability difference w.r.t range & payload and avionics & sensors. Anyways, again, the DM already knows these things. What new information will you present to him?

Also, I cannot view posts by ignored members, If you have anything to add to the discussion, kindly share.

This 200-300 foreign single jet RFI has been floated with justification of getting AC engine ToT/AESA Radar ToT. This is what I responded to - No country is going to hand over that AC tech easily to India. At max, u will end up assembling some engine parts. If u really want it, learn it yourself.

No such justification has been given. You are assuming this yourself.
This is a normal procurement RFI

 

[ersakthivel]

SO it is now clear that 200 "MAKE In INDIA" single engine fighter jet contract with the aim of "getting critical engine radar tech" is another fraud played on indian tax payer by the import lobby. Hope manohar Parrikar ses things as they are,

he has already said that Teajs-Sukhoi combo can fulfill the MMRCA needs as Plan B.

So this worthless forex outgo of tens of billions for F-16s, F-16s, gripens, which are way less capable than rafale must be stopped at once, if there was no upfront commitment on Jet engine Single Crystal blade (SCB) tech or ASEA radar tech.

We can easily put up another tejas production line if GOI advances 2500 cr to HAL & commits for 200 plus tejas variants whether they are tejas mk1A 0r tejas mk2.

By this we can have close to 30 tejas being produced in india & easily filling up the Mig-21 replacement needs within a decade & also seed a global mil aviation industry.

We can also get JV offers to develop Kaveri with either indian or foreign pvt players if we make sure kaveri can have an engine run of at least 500.

Oddering 50 odd Su-30 MKis & 1000 more brahmos will easily fill any "imagined" shortfall that IAF will face by filling up its squadrons with 200 to 300 tejas fighters.

Whats more these 200 tejas + 50 odd sukhois will use all existing weapons of IAF , with no need for redundant imports from US for F-16 & F-18, Gripen, which will be a huge forex saving in itself .

Money saved can be invested into AMCA & Kaveri engine tech , Already GTRE -IIT madras JV worth 900 crore for jet engine tech has been formalized by Manohar Parrikar.

With proposed S-400 for air defence & 600 Km brahmos, we can easily mange without these F-16s, F-18s gripen in my humble opinion

So "Ignorant members" can easily see the logic if they open their closed eyes!!!

 

[Pulkit]

SO it is now clear that 200 "MAKE In INDIA" single engine fighter jet contract with the aim of "getting critical engine radar tech" is another fraud played on indian tax payer by the import lobby. Hope manohar Parrikar ses things as they are,

I believe that IAF is not ready to wait for the full scale production of Tejas and hence they are looking for another option.The production of Tejas is scaled at 4 currently which is aiming to achieve 8 by next year and 12-16 in few years but as we say history repeats itself that's a little doubtful .HAL cannot keep its time lines.
Second production line might be the solution but I doubt that. The figure of 120 is sufficient to have one assembly but not two.

The rate of production needs improvement but appears an impossible task for HAL.
The view stated by you is also valid and it might just be a fraud.

he has already said that Teajs-Sukhoi combo can fulfill the MMRCA needs as Plan B.

For that we need to order more Sukhoi and as Tejas improved version is still to be finalized it will be difficult for the air force to operate as they cannot wait for a decade on this.

So this worthless forex outgo of tens of billions for F-16s, F-16s, gripens, which are way less capable than rafale must be stopped at once, if there was no upfront commitment on Jet engine Single Crystal blade (SCB) tech or ASEA radar tech.

Agreed ..... if it comes with the whole package then only it should be considered.

We can easily put up another tejas production line if GOI advances 2500 cr to HAL & commits for 200 plus tejas variants whether they are tejas mk1A 0r tejas mk2.

That's a little difficult I doubt they are gonna go for the second production line.
There has been no confidence shown by IAF and they are the one who will need to pool in some money.

By this we can have close to 30 tejas being produced in india & easily filling up the Mig-21 replacement needs within a decade & also seed a global mil aviation industry.

Only if they start a private Assembly line.

We can also get JV offers to develop Kaveri with either indian or foreign pvt players if we make sure kaveri can have an engine run of at least 500.

Oddering 50 odd Su-30 MKis & 1000 more brahmos will easily fill any "imagined" shortfall that IAF will face by filling up its squadrons with 200 to 300 tejas fighters.

But will that be in a timely manner?

Whats more these 200 tejas + 50 odd sukhois will use all existing weapons of IAF , with no need for redundant imports from US for F-16 & F-18, Gripen, which will be a huge forex saving in itself .

Correct.....

Money saved can be invested into AMCA & Kaveri engine tech , Already GTRE -IIT madras JV worth 900 crore for jet engine tech has been formalized by Manohar Parrikar.

So "Ignorant members" can easily see the logic if they open their closed eyes!!!

Correct....

 

[ersakthivel]

I believe that IAF is not ready to wait for the full scale production of Tejas and hence they are looking for another option.The production of Tejas is scaled at 4 currently which is aiming to achieve 8 by next year and 12-16 in few years but as we say history repeats itself that's a little doubtful .HAL cannot keep its time lines.
Second production line might be the solution but I doubt that. The figure of 120 is sufficient to have one assembly but not two.

The rate of production needs improvement but appears an impossible task for HAL.
The view stated by you is also valid and it might just be a fraud.

For that we need to order more Sukhoi and as Tejas improved version is still to be finalized it will be difficult for the air force to operate as they cannot wait for a decade on this.

Agreed ..... if it comes with the whole package then only it should be considered.

That's a little difficult I doubt they are gonna go for the second production line.
There has been no confidence shown by IAF and they are the one who will need to pool in some money.

Only if they start a private Assembly line.

But will that be in a timely manner?

Correct.....

Correct....

If MOD gives a 2500 cr more to HAL, second production line is ready,

production sealed at 4 per year is an inaccurate statement.

 

[Chinmoy]

Is RTI on single jet foreign AC possibility? I am not sarcastic here, we deserve an explanation. DM is sane person at least he will read an well composed draft on alternatives and concerns.

The way defence procurement is going is serious waste of public resources and nothing short of corruption. If this foreign single jet proposal goes through, LCA is as good as dead. Then wait for 10-15 years more for next window of opportunity with AMCA.

After a gap of almost 2 years, I opened up my FB yesterday night and had posted the same queries along with the new demands which IAF is cropping up in FOC of Tejas day in and out in IAF's FB page.
But I am sure that my posts would not feature anywhere in their wall as it is subject to scrutiny from their admin. Anyway doing the same again now and lets see what comes out of it.

 

[Pulkit]

If MOD gives a 2500 cr more to HAL, second production line is ready,

production sealed at 4 per year is an inaccurate statement.

MOD might not use the option of second line due to following reasons:
1)IAF is not showing faith in Tejas.
2)IAF wants another single engine aircraft.
3)They want Made in India not developed in India.
4)With other defense procurement s in line it will be difficult to provide 2500 cr.
5) FOC is still not achieved and I think (based on the integration process slowness) it might be further delayed.
6)Even if the line is set up it will take another 3-4 years to ramp up the production rate which IAF is not ready to wait.

I have never said the production is sealed at 4.
I said they have made these targets 4 in first year 8 in next 12-16 in third and 18 i believe(might be wrong) is there optimum production rate.

 

[Pulkit]

After a gap of almost 2 years, I opened up my FB yesterday night and had posted the same queries along with the new demands which IAF is cropping up in FOC of Tejas day in and out in IAF's FB page.
But I am sure that my posts would not feature anywhere in their wall as it is subject to scrutiny from their admin. Anyway doing the same again now and lets see what comes out of it.

@gpawar @ersakthivel

Why can we not tweet the same thing and ask the DFI members to retweet it again and again?

No kidding ... now a days politicians and more active on social forums that on any where else....

Lets make a hashtag #AskDM ?

 

[Chinmoy]

Now only this was remaining.............

Boeing says IAF inquiry for twin-engine fighter coming soon, hopes to build 200 in India

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...pes-to-build-200-in-india-116110301446_1.html

 

[republic_roi97]

Now only this was remaining.............

Boeing says IAF inquiry for twin-engine fighter coming soon, hopes to build 200 in India

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...pes-to-build-200-in-india-116110301446_1.html

What if, they don't go with 200 single engine jets instead twin engine F-18 or more Rafales ? Will that open things up for Tejas ?

 

[Chinmoy]

What if, they don't go with 200 single engine jets instead twin engine F-18 or more Rafales ? Will that open things up for Tejas ?

In simple language count things like below..........
As per IAF it needs 45 squadrons to manage a two front war. Right now with Mig21 and Jaguar decommissioning by 2020 the total strength would get down to 32 squadron. Now 120 Tejas would make up 6 squadron. After that there would still be space for 7 more squadron. 36 Rafales would make up two squadrons. That would leave 5 more squadron to be filled up.
Now I don't see where on earth IAF would fit 200 single engine fighter, leave alone 200 twin engine ones. 200 fighters effectively means 10 squadrons if you take 20 fighters each in a squadron (right now 1 squadron comprise of 18 fighters).
It means if we to believe news reports, along with Migs and Jaguars, Mirage too is in line of decommissioning in coming decade. But then too 200+200 fighters are lot to ask for.

 

[republic_roi97]

In simple language count things like below..........
As per IAF it needs 45 squadrons to manage a two front war. Right now with Mig21 and Jaguar decommissioning by 2020 the total strength would get down to 32 squadron. Now 120 Tejas would make up 6 squadron. After that there would still be space for 7 more squadron. 36 Rafales would make up two squadrons. That would leave 5 more squadron to be filled up.
Now I don't see where on earth IAF would fit 200 single engine fighter, leave alone 200 twin engine ones. 200 fighters effectively means 10 squadrons if you take 20 fighters each in a squadron (right now 1 squadron comprise of 18 fighters).
It means if we to believe news reports, along with Migs and Jaguars, Mirage too is in line of decommissioning in coming decade. But then too 200+200 fighters are lot to ask for.

That is exactly what I am asking, what if they never order 200 single engine fighter instead do away with 120 originally ordered Tejas + 80 more tejas and somewhere around 150-200 twin engine fighters.

 

[kstriya]

@gpawar @ersakthivel

Why can we not tweet the same thing and ask the DFI members to retweet it again and again?

No kidding ... now a days politicians and more active on social forums that on any where else....

Lets make a hashtag #AskDM ?

I am in :biggrin2: lets get DM answer some straight questions , lets ask Rajat Sharma to get DM in aap ki adalat and ask him, why, when and for what?

 

[Anikastha]

Is Teja's equipped with missile warning system ?
I have asked this question long ago but none replied....

Sent from my ASUS_Z00LD using Tapatalk

 

[Chinmoy]

I am in :biggrin2: lets get DM answer some straight questions , lets ask Rajat Sharma to get DM in aap ki adalat and ask him, why, when and for what?

Actually more then this, it would be better to hit them hard with hard facts. Politics have the ability to wriggle itself out by fooling layman. But with facts like those provided by @ersakthivel , we should counter them.
But sadly I am not aware of any such platform if it does exist.

 

[Chinmoy]

Is Teja's equipped with missile warning system ?
I have asked this question long ago but none replied....

Sent from my ASUS_Z00LD using Tapatalk

As far as news goes it does.........

The aircraft's electronic warfare suite, developed by the Advanced Systems Integration and Evaluation Organisation (ASIEO) of Bangalore, includes a radar warning receiver and jammer, laser warner, missile approach warner and chaff and flare dispenser.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/tejas/

 

[Chinmoy]

That is exactly what I am asking, what if they never order 200 single engine fighter instead do away with 120 originally ordered Tejas + 80 more tejas and somewhere around 150-200 twin engine fighters.

Add FGFA too in the soup. .

IAF is hell bent on including 200 single engine fighter to replace Mig-21. No way they would leave their baby (F-16/ Gripen) go away. And Arup Raha moreover indicated that they may go for more Rafales, i.e. MMRCA short of twin engine fighters.