ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[sthf]

We expect LCA Mk-2 to replace Mirage 2000, Jaguar and MiG-29 aircraft in the future.

Then what will the AMCA replace? This thing is getting confusing and boring by the minute.

 

[Rahul Singh]

one question if tejas..mk2 will replace mig 29 ,mirage2000 and Jaguar then why another fighter competition......now we have 200 sukhoi ..will produce 123 mk1..tejas 200 mk2...we will procure amca(2030)....may be we are not going for fgfa ..still now no news on fgfa deal ...so we are going for another competition.

I won't be surprised if GoI cancells MRCA-2 also when AMCA will have reached a certain stage of development. Just like SEF GoI may be buying time, again.

FGFA is nothing but dead. Enough hints now and then. Firstly the idea was to have full ToT and 30-40 % design contribution. Now neither gonna happen. SU-57 has gone too far ahead.

Then what will the AMCA replace? This thing is getting confusing and boring by the minute.

5th gen AMCA will first supplement +4.5 gen MK-2 and later replace it.

 

[sthf]

5th gen AMCA will first supplement +4.5 gen MK-2 and later replace it.

This implies that India will be producing AMCA well into the 2050s and that is being generous considering that Mk2 won't be inducted till 2027 and will serve for atleast 30 years.

So in short, India will be in the similar position in the 2050s as it is in now. Inducting a 4th gen platform ~40 years after it was first introduced in the 1980s.

If that isn't a grim picture I don't know what is.

 

[Kshithij]

one question if tejas..mk2 will replace mig 29 ,mirage2000 and Jaguar then why another fighter competition......now we have 200 sukhoi ..will produce 123 mk1..tejas 200 mk2...we will procure amca(2030)....may be we are not going for fgfa ..still now no news on fgfa deal ...so we are going for another competition.

I believe that the MRCA-2 is for ToT and will be bought only if the foreign OEM manufactures it in India itself and gives India all the technology needed. Otherwise, there is no need for MRCA-2.

Tejas MK2, Su30MKI and AMCA will do the jobs of light fighter, heavy fighter and stealth fighter

5th gen AMCA will first supplement +4.5 gen MK-2 and later replace it.

AMCA is not a plane you would mass manufacture. The idea behind Tejas is to make a light plane that can be mass manufactured like MiG21. India had made hundreds of MiG21 in 1970s-1980s. Tejas is supposed to be a plane like that.

AMCA is a plane meant for stealth role and not necessarily a plane for mass manufacture. AMCA is not supposed to replace LCA MK2. India will eventually have 3 planes - LCA MK2, AMCA, Su30 made in India.

As I said above, I am not sure why India needs another MRCA tender. But, I believe that the only rationale behind that is ToT

 

[Kshithij]

This implies that India will be producing AMCA well into the 2050s and that is being generous considering that Mk2 won't be inducted till 2027 and will serve for atleast 30 years.

So in short, India will be in the similar position in the 2050s as it is in now. Inducting a 4th gen platform ~40 years after it was first introduced in the 1980s.

If that isn't a grim picture I don't know what is.

If you don't commit suicide, then it is definitely a grim picture for everyone else. It is way better than making arbitrary assumptions and deriving arbitrary conclusions and then criticising everyone on that basis

 

[Rahul Singh]

AMCA is not a plane you would mass manufacture. The idea behind Tejas is to make a light plane that can be mass manufactured like MiG21. India had made hundreds of MiG21 in 1970s-1980s. Tejas is supposed to be a plane like that.

AMCA is a plane meant for stealth role and not necessarily a plane for mass manufacture. AMCA is not supposed to replace LCA MK2. India will eventually have 3 planes - LCA MK2, AMCA, Su30 made in India.

As I said above, I am not sure why India needs another MRCA tender. But, I believe that the only rationale behind that is ToT

Neither is F-35, but still......................

This implies that India will be producing AMCA well into the 2050s and that is being generous considering that Mk2 won't be inducted till 2027 and will serve for atleast 30 years.

So in short, India will be in the similar position in the 2050s as it is in now. Inducting a 4th gen platform ~40 years after it was first introduced in the 1980s.

If that isn't a grim picture I don't know what is.

India is playing a catch-up. And eventually, we run parallel to the best. But until then we have to keep accelerating and not get discouraged by the gap that is there..........There is no other way out.

Just to soothe your heart. Pakistan is going to remain viable enemy until sometime. And that "Grim Picture" will still remain justifiable.

 

[Sancho]

First, the Tejas was meant to be a light plane like Gripen C. Is Gripen C too small?

No it isn't because it was designed with enough space. For example in front of the cockpit, to house a larger radar or IRST. LCA was designed to brag about being "the smallest fighter in it's class" and that's why it even got shorter than the Mig 21.
So now we have to fix the problem, by re-designing the MK2 and make it longer again, but probably only with an additional part behind the cockpit.

Being a light class fighter, has nothing to do with the size, that was a choice of ADA, just as the claim of an empty weight of 5.5t. But over ambitious promises are the usual state for DRDO and it's agencies.

 

[Sancho]

NG: How many more Tejas aircraft would you like to see in the IAF in the next 10 years?

CAS: The IAF has committed for procurement of 123 x LCA. As you are aware, the IAF has already signed two contracts for 40 x LCA Mk 1 aircraft. Of these, 20 are in the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) standard and 20 will be in Final Operational Clearance (FOC) standard. RFP for 83 x LCA Mk 1A was issued in Dec 17. These deliveries of these aircraft would be completed in the next 10 years. We expect LCA Mk-2 to replace Mirage 2000, Jaguar and MiG-29 aircraft in the future.

http://bharatshakti.in/rafale-provi...deterrence-against-our-adversaries-air-chief/

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Now even Chief of Air Staffs has also spoken about the capabilities of Tejas MK-2.

Hope all naysayers are listening.

lol he was asked about numbers of orders and you in your typical nonsensical way concluded that he is talking about capabilities. No wonder that you get it wrong all the time.

Btw did you saw the parts of the new MMRCA RFI, especially those about IAF asking for mission profile in strike config. Guess what they include as standard in their mission configs? :biggrin2:

 

[sthf]

India is playing a catch-up.

India playing catch up in 2018, understandable. India playing catch up in 2050s, downright criminal and treasonous.

As for the no other way, that is not true. Ditch the MK2, ditch the SEF, ditch the "new MMRCA" and go for MK1A and Rafale in numbers.

Just to soothe your heart. Pakistan is going to remain viable enemy until sometime. And that "Grim Picture" will still remain justifiable.

If Pakistan is going to remain the only viable enemy then why even go for the MK2s. Why spend that money? There are plenty of MKIs which can slaughter PAF. Same goes for aircraft carriers, nuke subs among others.

 

[Rahul Singh]

lol he was asked about numbers of orders and you in your typical nonsensical way concluded that he is talking about capabilities. No wonder that you get it wrong all the time.

When CAS specifically mentions the Types MK-2 will replace, he only meant numbers, not the capability also? Is that what you're saying?

So your Lahori Logic strikes again!

No surprises.

Btw did you saw the parts of the new MMRCA RFI, especially those about IAF asking for mission profile in strike config. Guess what they include as standard in their mission configs? :biggrin2:

Ever heard something called Factor of Range...........I could elaborate further but your chicken head won't get it.

So just Eat this.

 

[Rahul Singh]

India playing catch up in 2018, understandable. India playing catch up in 2050s, downright criminal and treasonous.

As for the no other way, that is not true. Ditch the MK2, ditch the SEF, ditch the "new MMRCA" and go for MK1A and Rafale in numbers.

If it were so easy then India would had build a MIC at least for combat aviation after Marut.

But did it happened? What factors played roles in not letting it happen? Have these forces dissipated today?

Speaking in black and white is soo easy. However real world works in Grey.

I don't expect MK-2 to even complete if Modi fails to regain power.

If Pakistan is going to remain the only viable enemy then why even go for the MK2s. Why spend that money? There are plenty of MKIs which can slaughter PAF. Same goes for aircraft carriers, nuke subs among others.

Who said 'only'?

Pakistan is gonna remain one of the viable enemies. One against which MK-2 and rest of 4.5 gen assets will remain useful.

 

[Sancho]

When CAS specifically mentions the Types MK-2 will replace, he only meant numbers, not the capability also? Is that what you're saying?

Yes, because the question was how many MK2 he wants and he mentioned Mig 29 and Mirage to be replaced => up to 6 squads. So contrary to your false conclusions, he is talking about numbers and not capabilities!

Secondly, fighter replacements are based on the current operstional requirement and threat potential not on 1 on 1 capability replacement. The Rafales in Hasimara will multiply the capability that single role Mig 27 strike fighters left there, because that is the Base that needs fighters now and the threat potential in that area is higher than in the past. Similarly, FGFA was planned to replace upgraded Mig 27, or some of the older Jags, up to Mirage and Mig 29 initially, which all are far inferior in capability as well, but it they needed to be replaced in times when FGFA was supposed to be in licence production.
Now with the FGFA in trouble, the only planned fighter production for IAF remains to be LCA and possibly MMRCA. So logically he has to plan with MK2 as a replacement, since there is no alternative for IAF in sight.
While the capability wise replacement for Mig 21s remains to be LCA and we still are considering MMRCAs above MK2 in the medium category! If the Air Chief would think MK2 would be an MMRCA in terms of capability, we wouldn't re-issue the tender (ot that difficult to understand either).
But he doesn't, since IAF knows that LCA remains to be the low end and that it takes more capable fighters, with the mentioned mission profile / config to defend the country.

View attachment 24142

Lol, so you are proving yourself to be wrong now? What happen to LCA doesn't need fuel tanks? It flys only on internal fuel (or with cameras) and all those claims? :biggrin2:

 

[Kshithij]

Ditch the MK2, ditch the SEF, ditch the "new MMRCA" and go for MK1A and Rafale in numbers.

This is the real criminal act. Buy imported Rafale over Tejas MK2? If this isn't criminal, what is?

 

[sthf]

If it were so easy then India would had build a MIC at least for combat aviation after Marut.

Never said it was but if you are still not good enough 100 years after the independence then maybe you should pack your bags and leave.

Either you are a big boy or you are not. There is no middle ground.

But did it happened? What factors played roles in not letting it happen? Have these forces dissipated today?

Well, India is not broke as it used to be. India is not in Soviet camp anymore. India is not as foolish as it used to be.

If the factors are not dissipitated whose responsibilty is this? If the factors will not be dissipitated till 2050s, as you implied, whose responisibilty will it be?

I don't expect MK-2 to even complete if Modi fails to regain power.

Good riddance to MK2 from my end. Never liked that program, never will.

Who said 'only'?

My bad.

Pakistan is gonna remain one of the viable enemies. One against which MK-2 and rest of 4.5 gen assets will remain useful.

Mainstay of PAF will be Joint Fart 17 for forseeable future. You don't need MK2 for that. You don't need Rafale for that.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Yes, because the question was how many MK2 he wants and he mentioned Mig 29 and Mirage to be replaced => up to 6 squads. So contrary to your false conclusions, he is talking about numbers and not capabilities!

Oh really? So CAS mentions names of the fighter and not their Squadron no. when he is only referring to 'numbers'(as per you) while on record? Do you think CAS is a layman?

Lol, so you are proving yourself to be wrong now? What happen to LCA doesn't need fuel tanks? It flys only on internal fuel (or with cameras) and all those claims? :biggrin2:

Actually the pic, i posted earlier was only to show that how much things have changed from the time ADA released that brochure in 2015.

In 2015 the brochure did not even mention drop tanks for mind wing stations. But now as things stand those stations are seen with 800 litres drop tanks (in the second pic).

So conclude yourself, the point.

Before i forget. Where did i say Tejas does not needs DPs at all?........ Please don't waste my time with your poor comprehension abilities.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Never said it was but if you are still not good enough 100 years after the independence then maybe you should pack your bags and leave.

Either you are a big boy or you are not. There is no middle ground.

Actually, we are between and will remain so for a long time.

MIC is the most critical requirement for safeguarding the strategic interest of the nation. So can't help it. Can not go too bold we are dependent on subsystems from other nations. Can not go home because progress is there and turning back is not even an option.

Good riddance to MK2 from my end. Never liked that program, never will.

Options wrt industrial developments?

Mainstay of PAF will be Joint Fart 17 for forseeable future. You don't need MK2 for that. You don't need Rafale for that.

But it helps in selling projects like Tejas Mk-2 in order to keep working towards developing a MIC through continuity, which is necessary for skill development and evolution of infrastructure. With so many necessary benefits who is complaining?

Another opponent of Mk-2 will be J-10s. And PLAAF is not going to dump its J-10 fleet in SCS anytime soon. That's, if not anything then at least another excuse for developing Tejas Mk-2 which is now being categorised as an MCA.

 

[lcafanboy]

FGFA is nothing but dead. Enough hints now and then. Firstly the idea was to have full ToT and 30-40 % design contribution. Now neither gonna happen. SU-57 has gone too far ahead.

Putin's Russia is playing games with India...so India may ditch pakfa.

As it is Rafales f3 are more advanced than current pakfa and version India is buying is Rafales f4 which will come after 2025 will be equal or better to FGFA and will be made in India. Read iaf RFI carefully it's Rafales f4 all the way.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Putin's Russia is playing games with India...so India may ditch pakfa.

With every possibility of its signature getting passed on to Chinese, we will be an idiot to even consider it anymore.

Even if AMCA remains a half backed cake for a while it will still be better than FGFA for us.

As it is Rafales f3 are more advanced than current pakfa and version India is buying is Rafales f4 which will come after 2025 will be equal or better to FGFA and will be made in India. Read iaf RFI carefully it's Rafales f4 all the way.

If such is the case then I am happy. Provided French are ready to help us develop a Kaveri variant with required thrust for AMCA.

 

[lcafanboy]

With every possibility of its signature getting passed on to Chinese, we will be an idiot to even consider it anymore.

Even if AMCA remains a half backed cake for a while it will still be better than FGFA for us.



If such is the case then I am happy. Provided French are ready to help us develop a Kaveri variant with required thrust for AMCA.

Most probably Indian Rafales will be powered by snecma Kaveri engine made in India with components made by Safran in India.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Most probably Indian Rafales will be powered by snecma Kaveri engine made in India with components made by Safran in India.

Surely the repeat order from GoI won't come without it. Maybe this MRCA 2 is also to put pressure on French for giving more than what they are willing to at present.