ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Filtercoffee]

You just don't buy fighter jet. You decide on war doctrine first. Then decide how many heavy fighter you need and then allocate resources for them.

Heavy fighter like su30 / f15 bleed opex. They demand more poilets more maintenance and are more expensive to fly.

So iaf can't afford more heavy fighters. Also adding another jet to the zoo is madness. We need to standardise the fleet on two three types.

This lie of the IAF being poorly fund allocated for funtioning with higher certified fighters is a lie as known. We need quality instead of mass crap. This I say after I compare the rest of the mentioned against the Eagles. About your problem of a standardized fleet, if bought will not need anything else for the next 20 to 30 + years after purchase as an air superiority, air dominance and an air defence fighter interceptor. If bought, it will fly against the PAF aircraft fleet which can be considered an obsolete today.

 

[Steven Rogers]

This lie of the IAF being poorly fund allocated for funtioning with higher certified fighters is fact. We need quality instead of mass crap. This I say after I compare the rest of the mentioned against the Eagles. About you problem of a standardized fleet, if bought will not need anything else for the next 20 to 30 + years after purchase as an air superiority, air dominance and an air defence fighter interceptor.

Tell you a fact,IAF poster boy Su30mkis counts the highest number of sorties every year relatively compared to the other aircrafts in the iaf,and that is what IAF wants to bring down,the mission requirement is met by the sukhois but at the cost of capital.... A single MRCA like rafale can do the same what HRCA can in ISA but at relatively Half the cost per flight hours.

 

[Filtercoffee]

Tell you a fact,IAF poster boy Su30mkis counts the highest number of sorties every year relatively compared to the other aircrafts in the iaf,and that is what IAF wants to bring down,the mission requirement is met by the sukhois but at the cost of capital.... A single MRCA like rafale can do the same what HRCA can in ISA but at relatively Half the cost per flight hours.

Boeing can rectify the problem, hands down.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Boeing can rectify the problem, hands down.

HOW????????????????????????????????

 

[Bleh]

...radar,360 degree awareness,better transmission of data,faster data transmission due to optical fibre usage instead of copper wires,more enhanced artificial intelligence and better awareness of the combat...

I didn't include tech restrictions... These can be installed on upgrades (or later batches) of MWF, even F414-EPE engines. So Mark 2 might supercruise someday, if they feel that's a feature to have.

The range & fuel advantages are unclear at this point. While AMCA will most likely carry more fuel it has 2, more powerful engines too.

AMCA has empty weight greater than the 4th gen MCA as per the brochure,but that doesnt mean it would have such from the first proto.....AMCA itself lies bw traditional mca and hca

I think MWF's take off cap (17-18 tonnes) is more in league of F-16, J-10 or Mirage 2000 while AMCA goes close to 30 tonnes, much closer to being a heavy fighter.

Rafale has empty weight of 10.5t & MTOW 24.5t
Typhoon has empty weight of 11t & MTOW 23.5t.
F/A-18 has empty weight of 14.5t & MTOW 29.5t. (this specs i suggested AHCA has to just surpass)

AMCA (from chart)
Empty weight: 12t
Max take-off weight: 25t
Engine: 110kN(×2)
Fuel/Wing-area:??

AHCA (after steroids)
Empty weight: 15t
Max take-off weight: ≥30t
Engine: 130kN(×2)
Fuel/Wing-area:??+

Single-engine MWF is the same class of Mirage-2000, F-16, J-10 etc. They may be different but both are very much medium class.
And, their payload is officially same despite size difference!

 

[Steven Rogers]

I didn't include tech restrictions... These can be installed on upgrades (or later batches) of MWF, even F414-EPE engines. So Mark 2 might supercruise someday, if they feel that's a feature to have.

The range & fuel advantages are unclear at this point. While AMCA will most likely carry more fuel it has 2, more powerful engines too.

Rafale has empty weight of 10.5t & MTOW 24.5t
Typhoon has empty weight of 11t & MTOW 23.5t.
F/A-18 has empty weight of 14.5t & MTOW 29.5t. (this specs i suggested AHCA has to just surpass)


Single-engine MWF is the same class of Mirage-2000, F-16, J-10 etc. They may be different but both are very much medium class.
And, their payload is officially same despite size difference!

To an extent what youre suggesting is mlu for mwf which will go only after a decade of service while the same will be avialable on amca from the day 1 when it is inducted in the AF. An aircraft like AMCA can supercruise with 3ton internal payload,while the same option for 4th gen jet with all its payload hanging outside is unachieveable due the the enormous drag penality(may in a2a config 4 missiles and supersonic dt) but not in the most contested mission.
Even the weight is unclear(they started from 18tons mtow and now 25 tons as per brochure but the rfi suggest it even more heavier due to the bigger dimensions)It will certainly be carrying fuel as much as f35 carries or probably more... So the mtow is what dictates the capability than simple empty weight....if it is in the class of that f35 is in mtow ,then in indian conditions it is most suited to carry out operations even from an airfield situated in leh.....it certainly will lie bw HCA and MCA but not typical MCA which iaf is currently procuring.... the payload on brochure suggest external payload and it doesnt include 3tons inside the weapons bay ....

 

[Filtercoffee]

HOW????????????????????????????????

look India can afford to have a heavy all weather air superiority fighter. As upgrades are done you will see a drop in price per sortie as worried by you earlier. How do you know about the IAF reducing the SU-30 MKI flight time due to heavy cost? Also its cheaper to operate F-15s compared to the Rafale.

 

[Steven Rogers]

look India can afford to have a heavy all weather air superiority fighter. As upgrades are done you will see a drop in price per sortie as worried by you earlier. How do you know about the IAF reducing the SU-30 MKI flight time due to heavy cost? Also its cheaper to operate F-15s compared to the Rafale.

I asked how boeing will do what others failed too.

 

[IndianHawk]

This lie of the IAF being poorly fund allocated for funtioning with higher certified fighters is a lie as known. We need quality instead of mass crap. This I say after I compare the rest of the mentioned against the Eagles. About your problem of a standardized fleet, if bought will not need anything else for the next 20 to 30 + years after purchase as an air superiority, air dominance and an air defence fighter interceptor. If bought, it will fly against the PAF aircraft fleet which can be considered an obsolete today.

You have no idea about how airforce functions . No point arguing with you .

 

[IndianHawk]

I didn't include tech restrictions... These can be installed on upgrades (or later batches) of MWF, even F414-EPE engines. So Mark 2 might supercruise someday, if they feel that's a feature to have.

The range & fuel advantages are unclear at this point. While AMCA will most likely carry more fuel it has 2, more powerful engines too.

Rafale has empty weight of 10.5t & MTOW 24.5t
Typhoon has empty weight of 11t & MTOW 23.5t.
F/A-18 has empty weight of 14.5t & MTOW 29.5t. (this specs i suggested AHCA has to just surpass)


Single-engine MWF is the same class of Mirage-2000, F-16, J-10 etc. They may be different but both are very much medium class.
And, their payload is officially same despite size difference!

Amca is going to be upward 25 ton MTOW. And it will need 110KN engine to supercruise effectively

For 30 ton plus plane you are seeking first we need 130 kn Engine. Then we need to consider operating cost of this giant which will rival su30.
It will be more expensive both to procure and operate.

Amca will have operating costs similar to rafale or lower . So amca will form the backbone of airforce for next 4-5 decades . While AHCA will come in limited numbers as a 6th gen platform.

No airforce can afford heavy fighters in great numbers. It will always be few heavy fighter combined with majority of medium / light fighters.

That is why bulk of airforce will be mwf and amca. If you increase the size of amca you decrease its numbers and reduce the airforce squadron further.

 

[Filtercoffee]

I asked how boeing will do what others failed too.

Boeing has bought Mcdonell Douglas and has the best network due to Air India and the rest of the airlines. As we receive Apaches and Chinooks, Boeing's promise of maintenance is what made me state claim. Please do not fool your self thinking any other aircraft manufacturer is at par with Boeing in India. Kindly consider the maintenance section while buying a fighter. You did not state how you came by the SU-30MKI reduction in flying hours..?

 

[Steven Rogers]

Boeing has bought Mcdonell Douglas and has the best network due to Air India and the rest of the airlines. As we receive Apaches and Chinooks, Boeing's promise of maintenance is what made me state claim. Please do not fool your self thinking any other aircraft manufacturer is at par with Boeing in India. Kindly consider the maintenance section while buying a fighter. You did not state how you came by the SU-30MKI reduction in flying hours..?

Boeing bought McDonell Douglas some 20 years ago,tata bought jaguar some 10 years ago,does that make sense of how a heavy aircraft which costs over 30k$ per hour flight will ease air force when they are focusing to reduce the cost of operation....Lockheed has even better chance with F21 than boeing with F15s. Oh so it all went upto here just for the sake of loyality with boeing ....Air india wont help IAF neither do the spares for apache and chinook will help IAF to operate F15s(by the way with that comment it suggest you dont even bothered to know why and how Chinook and Apache were selected).Maintenance will be the biggest problem,how? lack of budget for iaf to operate all its diverse fleet relatively equal so that all of its pilot(respective of their planes)are well trained on all platform for the mission and they dont have to cut the mission for that platform in order to flex for other and for that reason IAF has been behind mmrca so that the su30 which clocks more than the required flying hours(as per cag)can only knock the specified flying which will significantly bring down the cost of flying,and an aircraft like rafale which costs half compared to su30 per flight was favoured since the result for fast induction.....the more less it cost the more they will be on air ....and for that context read about the upg on mig29 on bharat rakshak,their they have given the data that the twin and single seater variant of the upg clocks 175hr/yr and 225hr/yr respectively(25hrs less than avg mrca like f16).

 

[Filtercoffee]

That is sold on what is called the brochure,in ISA much touted aircraft have underperformed....The eagles will be financially much heavier to maintain,and it will also require to establish new chain of spares within the country else forget about the so called reasonable price,the iaf suffered from that with the sukhois,powerful radar? i dont have knowldege about the japs f15 radar but if it is an aesa then it would require the US permission to sell or to replace the same with older msa...Su30mkis already have a very powerfull yet outdated radar which losses its relevance against even a small aesa....those numbers are avialable on various forums probably f16.net when i checked them the last time.....

Your point of contetion is that we are outdated (SU-30MKI with its old powerful, outdated radar)?

 

[Filtercoffee]

Boeing bought McDonell Douglas some 20 years ago,tata bought jaguar some 10 years ago,does that make sense of how a heavy aircraft which costs over 30k$ per hour flight will ease air force when they are focusing to reduce the cost of operation....Lockheed has even better chance with F21 than boeing with F15s. Oh so it all went upto here just for the sake of loyality with boeing ....Air india wont help IAF neither do the spares for apache and chinook will help IAF to operate F15s(by the way with that comment it suggest you dont even bothered to know why and how Chinook and Apache were selected).Maintenance will be the biggest problem,how? lack of budget for iaf to operate all its diverse fleet relatively equal so that all of its pilot(respective of their planes)are well trained on all platform for the mission and they dont have to cut the mission for that platform in order to flex for other and for that reason IAF has been behind mmrca so that the su30 which clocks more than the required flying hours(as per cag)can only knock the specified flying which will significantly bring down the cost of flying,and an aircraft like rafale which costs half compared to su30 per flight was favoured since the result for fast induction.....the more less it cost the more they will be on air ....and for that context read about the upg on mig29 on bharat rakshak,their they have given the data that the twin and single seater variant of the upg clocks 175hr/yr and 225hr/yr respectively(25hrs less than avg mrca like f16).

Where is your information is coming from?

 

[lcafanboy]

LCA Tejas to level up with on-board oxygen system by early 2020, says DRDO
Published September 20, 2019 | By admin SOURCE: ENS

India’s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas will be graduating to the next level with the installation of the On-board Oxygen (OBOX) generating system by December or early 2020, said a scientist from Defence Electromedical & Bio-Engineering Laboratory (DEBEL), under the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO). Almost a year after a successful mid-air fuelling of the Tejas, the LCA Mark-1 (Mk-1) of the Indian Air Force, which enables aircrafts to be airborne for longer durations, DEBEL researchers have developed the onboard oxygen generating system, OBOX, to help keep the pilot fit and alert for an equally long duration with continuous supply of oxygen while on high altitude, long-distance flights. “As of now, a fighter pilot is airborne with a bottle of oxygen, a cylinder that comes with the aircraft, which has the capacity to last an hour at the most, before coming back to base to get it replenished. However, with the OBOX, oxygen will be available throughout, as long as the engine is running,” he said. The LCA Tejas is an indigenous lightweight, multi-role supersonic aircraft, developed in both fighter and trainer versions. The IAF had initially ordered 40 LCA Tejas aircrafts with the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which is manufacturing the aircraft after the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) completed its design and development phase. However, in 2018, the IAF placed a further order of 83 LCA Tejas aircraft at a cost of about Rs 50,000 crore. Tejas has been built using advanced composites with an eye on reducing its weight while enhancing the life of the components. The lightweight fighter — designed to carry air-to-air, air-to-surface, precision-guided and standoff weaponry — successfully completed arrested landing on its naval variant in Goa and is finally expected to be assigned for operations on India’s aircraft carrier Vikramaditya. How the self-replenishing system works The box will suck the bleed air which is being thrown out of the engine along with the exhaust, and then processes it through sieves. Nitrogen is separated through this ‘absorption process’ and pure oxygen is generated. “We have successfully completed lab trials. Now it is to have flight trials. Which is expected by the end of this year or by 2020. After that, this will be fitted on the Tejas,” he said. The OBOX will flash warning lights and beeps when it detects lesser oxygen than demanded. An onboard electronic control unit on it will monitor the generation and percentage of oxygen. The 14.5 kg OBOX has been designed for the Tejas and will be later used with small modification on Sukhoys and LCA Tejas to level up with on-board oxygen system by early 2020, says DRDO Published September 20, 2019 | By admin SOURCE: ENS India’s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas will be graduating to the next level with the installation of the On-board Oxygen (OBOX) generating system by December or early 2020, said a scientist from Defence Electromedical & Bio-Engineering Laboratory (DEBEL), under the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO). Almost a year after a successful mid-air fuelling of the Tejas, the LCA Mark-1 (Mk-1) of the Indian Air Force, which enables aircrafts to be airborne for longer durations, DEBEL researchers have developed the onboard oxygen generating system, OBOX, to help keep the pilot fit and alert for an equally long duration with continuous supply of oxygen while on high altitude, long-distance flights. “As of now, a fighter pilot is airborne with a bottle of oxygen, a cylinder that comes with the aircraft, which has the capacity to last an hour at the most, before coming back to base to get it replenished. However, with the OBOX, oxygen will be available throughout, as long as the engine is running,” he said. The LCA Tejas is an indigenous lightweight, multi-role supersonic aircraft, developed in both fighter and trainer versions. The IAF had initially ordered 40 LCA Tejas aircrafts with the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which is manufacturing the aircraft after the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) completed its design and development phase. However, in 2018, the IAF placed a further order of 83 LCA Tejas aircraft at a cost of about Rs 50,000 crore. Tejas has been built using advanced composites with an eye on reducing its weight while enhancing the life of the components. The lightweight fighter — designed to carry air-to-air, air-to-surface, precision-guided and standoff weaponry — successfully completed arrested landing on its naval variant in Goa and is finally expected to be assigned for operations on India’s aircraft carrier Vikramaditya. How the self-replenishing system works The box will suck the bleed air which is being thrown out of the engine along with the exhaust, and then processes it through sieves. Nitrogen is separated through this ‘absorption process’ and pure oxygen is generated. “We have successfully completed lab trials. Now it is to have flight trials. Which is expected by the end of this year or by 2020. After that, this will be fitted on the Tejas,” he said. The OBOX will flash warning lights and beeps when it detects lesser oxygen than demanded. An onboard electronic control unit on it will monitor the generation and percentage of oxygen. The 14.5 kg OBOX has been designed for the Tejas and will be later used with small modification on Sukhoys and Hawks.
http://idrw.org/lca-tejas-to-level-...n-system-by-early-2020-says-drdo/#more-210294 ..
http://idrw.org/lca-tejas-to-level-...n-system-by-early-2020-says-drdo/#more-210294 .

 

[Steven Rogers]

Your point of contetion is that we are outdated (SU-30MKI with its old powerful, outdated radar)?

Indeed when compared to french,american,israeli fighters aircrafts...dont know about china but once uttam aesa is developed ,it will make pesa bars radar obsolete even in india itself.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Where is your information is coming from?

from various sources.....the current f15 costs $42000 per hour flight as per national intrest
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/f-15x-vsf-35-air-force-debate-dominating-headlines-62112
while the su30sm(russian variant of the mki)costs 35000$ per hour flight as per belarusian blog
https://bsblog.info/on-the-purchase-of-su-30sm-for-the-belarusian-air-force/

 

[Filtercoffee]

from various sources.....the current f15 costs $42000 per hour flight as per national intrest
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/f-15x-vsf-35-air-force-debate-dominating-headlines-62112
while the su30sm(russian variant of the mki)costs 35000$ per hour flight as per belarusian blog
https://bsblog.info/on-the-purchase-of-su-30sm-for-the-belarusian-air-force/

Great now observe why we are some what obsolete to you compared to nations you have mentioned; we need western aircraft to fill the void. Therefore its a strategic buy if purchased. By the way, the radar of the SU-30MKI is classified and can not be revealed to civilians. So your points of reference are not exactly accurate.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Great now observe why we are some what obsolete to you compared to nations you have mentioned; we need western aircraft to fill the void. Therefore its a strategic buy if purchased. By the way, the radar of the SU-30MKI is classified and can not be revealed to civilians. So your points of reference are not exactly accurate.

As i have mentioned specifically RAFALE(which is the only operational european aircraft with aesa)which is a french product and it has met the stringent ASQR of IAF and under a segment which calls for a MEDIUM Multirole combat aircraft thus only those aircrafts can be considered which strictly follow the specified MTOW limits,thus their is no chance of a western heavy weight mrca to even get evaluated by the IAF even though it offer quantom leap in the heavy weight category which currently su30 dominates and its potential order could reach 300mark.

such a classified radar that its image with the aircraft is in public domain,no we are not chinese who can even claim a pesa an aesa....what even is classified cant change the fact that su30mki has a radar which is obsolete in the current technological scenario. It is another lengthy topic of debate that even though it has an older technology,it hasnt lost its relevance compared to the adversaries or friendly nations.

 

[Filtercoffee]

You have no idea about how airforce functions . No point arguing with you .

please tell us how it operates, it will give insight deeper then known.?