A contingent of Russian ground forces arrived Pak for 1st ever Pak- Russian joint exercise (2 weeks)

[Mikesingh]

I'm confused. What does that have to do with arms industry indigenization and weapons procurement.
Wasn't the USSR socialist too, they made some serious weapons didn't they?
All weapons manufacturers of china are also fully govt. owned.

There is some deeper rot, that has prevented us from weapons indigenization.

Remember, the Russians, had a long history of conflicts. Their arms industry took off after WW1. They entered the first world war with the largest army in the world, standing at 1,400,000 soldiers; when fully mobilized the Russian army expanded to over 5,000,000 soldiers. Their arms industry was geared up to equip their armed forces. It wasn't about socialism. It was about the defence of Russia.

WWII saw the Russians having one of the biggest arms industries on the planet. So, socialism has nothing to do with a robust arms industry. Only it's controlled by the government.

In our case, Nehru is on record stating that an army is not needed as a police force is sufficient for the security of India! He was a self professed so called peace-nick, and thus he and his Congress government gave no priority to an indigenous arms industry. This thought process is built into the Congress psyche and visible even today.

Modi ushered in a revolution of sorts by his 'Make in India' campaign. A robust military-industrial complex has finally taken shape. If we had done this 60 years ago, India would have been a big exporter of weapons today having cutting edge technology.

Remember, the one thing that the Congress had done for which we give it kudos is India's space program and the establishment of ISRO in 1969 that started off with rocket cones being carried on bicycles in the late 60s to spacecraft orbiting Mars.

From this in the 60s.....

To this at present....

Imagine where our military industrial complex would have been today if we had seriously begun work on indigenous design and production of weapon systems in the 60s like our indigenous space program!

 

[republic_roi97]

Remember, the Russians, had a long history of conflicts. Their arms industry took off after WW1. They entered the first world war with the largest army in the world, standing at 1,400,000 soldiers; when fully mobilized the Russian army expanded to over 5,000,000 soldiers. Their arms industry was geared up to equip their armed forces. It wasn't about socialism. It was about the defence of Russia.

WWII saw the Russians having one of the biggest arms industries on the planet. So, socialism has nothing to do with a robust arms industry. Only it's controlled by the government.

In our case, Nehru is on record stating that an army is not needed as a police force is sufficient for the security of India! He was a self professed so called peace-nick, and thus he and his Congress government gave no priority to an indigenous arms industry. This thought process is built into the Congress psyche and visible even today.

Modi ushered in a revolution of sorts by his 'Make in India' campaign. A robust military-industrial complex has finally taken shape. If we had done this 60 years ago, India would have been a big exporter of weapons today having cutting edge technology.

Remember, the one thing that the Congress had done for which we give it kudos is India's space program and the establishment of ISRO in 1969 that started off with rocket cones being carried on bicycles in the late 60s to spacecraft orbiting Mars.

From this in the 60s.....

To this at present....

Imagine where our military industrial complex would have been today if we had seriously begun work on indigenous design and production of weapon systems in the 60s like our indigenous space program!

My man I don't know why, but your post gave me goosebumps!! Gud one mate.

 

[Razor]

@Mikesingh : So it isn't so much about socialism or any -ism but rather some idiot leaders/parties and people not caring.
I hope I got the essence of your post, right.

 

[alphacentury]

In our case, Nehru is on record stating that an army is not needed as a police force is sufficient for the security of India! He was a self professed so called peace-nick, and thus he and his Congress government gave no priority to an indigenous arms industry. This thought process is built into the Congress psyche and visible even today.

Nehru was a deluded megalomaniac power broker who compromised national interest for personal glory. And the defence minister, Krishna Menon, who btw was Nehru's bff and who got 'Padma Vibhushan' in 1954(Nehru nominated himself and got BR in 55), said we are peace loving nation, we dont need army. Shut down ordnance factory, we dont need artillery, ammunition. No one will attack us as we are a peace loving nation. Can you imagine, any defence minister shutting down ordnance factory. Look at this retard.

 

[Razor]

Nehru was a deluded megalomaniac power broker who compromised national interest for personal glory. And the defence minister, Krishna Menon, who btw was Nehru's bff and who got 'Padma Vibhushan' in 1954(Nehru nominated himself and got BR in 55), said we are peace loving nation, we dont need army. Shut down ordnance factory, we dont need artillery, ammunition. No one will attack us as we are a peace loving nation. Can you imagine, any defence minister shutting down ordnance factory. Look at this retard.

"We dont need army"

I'm wondering how they can be so delusional? Gandhi's influence? Too much weed? Paid/unpaid agents? What is it?

 

[OrangeFlorian]

Nehru was a deluded megalomaniac power broker who compromised national interest for personal glory. And the defence minister, Krishna Menon, who btw was Nehru's bff and who got 'Padma Vibhushan' in 1954(Nehru nominated himself and got BR in 55), said we are peace loving nation, we dont need army. Shut down ordnance factory, we dont need artillery, ammunition. No one will attack us as we are a peace loving nation. Can you imagine, any defence minister shutting down ordnance factory. Look at this retard.

what a chomu

..............................................

 

[hit&run]

Are there any short term

Nehru was a deluded megalomaniac power broker who compromised national interest for personal glory. And the defence minister, Krishna Menon, who btw was Nehru's bff and who got 'Padma Vibhushan' in 1954(Nehru nominated himself and got BR in 55), said we are peace loving nation, we dont need army. Shut down ordnance factory, we dont need artillery, ammunition. No one will attack us as we are a peace loving nation. Can you imagine, any defence minister shutting down ordnance factory. Look at this retard.

Good find.

 

[Mikesingh]

@Mikesingh : So it isn't so much about socialism or any -ism but rather some idiot leaders/parties and people not caring.
I hope I got the essence of your post, right.

Today most politicians haven't a clue about military affairs. These worthies haven't even held a pistol in their hands.....except, of course, their own!!

 

[Zarvan]

Indians you are not getting the point. The point is not Russians are conducting exercises with Pakistan that was eventually going to happen. The point is from now you and specially your Government and Media needs to shut the hell up and stop lying about isolating Pakistan at world stage. We are your daddies when it comes diplomacy and getting things done as we want. This delusion you have of some how you can isolate Pakistan has never have and never will work so grow up. As for exercises these happen between world militarizes. Even Russia and USA together participate in different exercises around the world so nothing new. Only thing is before opening your big mouth next time think 1000 times before doing it.

 

[republic_roi97]

Indians you are not getting the point. The point is not Russians are conducting exercises with Pakistan that was eventually going to happen. The point is from now you and specially your Government and Media needs to shut the hell up and stop lying about isolating Pakistan at world stage. We are your daddies when it comes diplomacy and getting things done as we want. This delusion you have of some how you can isolate Pakistan has never have and never will work so grow up. As for exercises these happen between world militarizes. Even Russia and USA together participate in different exercises around the world so nothing new. Only thing is before opening your big mouth next time think 1000 times before doing it.

Why are you so frustrated man? Chill. The fact is that your water bill might get high sometime in the future, US senators have already presented a bill to declare Pakistan a terrorist state, search on the internet about EU court which might impose some economic restrictions on you if you don't stop massacre on Baluchistan, nothing even after your PM's little speech, is happening on the issue of Kashmir on the contrary UN general rejected your so called dossier, just start preparations for breaking apart. As for your foreign policy, its full of shit, you guys are just tiny bitches of the chinese, while we are getting the investments from throughout the world. To beta, Only thing is before opening your big mouth next time think 1000 times before doing it.

 

[Mikesingh]

The point is from now you and specially your Government and Media needs to shut the hell up and stop lying about isolating Pakistan at world stage.

Lol! You're already isolated.

But your exports are zooming! Congrats! I mean your terror industry that includes 70,000 madrasas producing world class mercenary terrorists for export! You Porkis are now a failed state, a basket case. Even the American lawmakers have introduced a bill in the US Congress to declare Porkistan a terrorist state.

All you feather-brains talk about nowadays is the CPEC where you clowns think that 'rivers of gold' will flow through Pakistan!! Lol! WTF are you going to use that road for? Exporting undersized cotton undies and vests to your sweeter than honey friends? What more do you fellows have that you can export? Zilch!

 

[republic_roi97]

Lol! You're already isolated.

But your exports are zooming! Congrats! I mean your terror industry that includes 70,000 madrasas producing world class mercenary terrorists for export! You Porkis are now a failed state, a basket case. Even the American lawmakers have introduced a bill in the US Congress to declare Porkistan a terrorist state.

All you feather-brains talk about nowadays is the CPEC where you clowns think that 'rivers of gold' will flow through Pakistan!! Lol! WTF are you going to use that road for? Exporting undersized cotton undies and vests to your sweeter than honey friends? What more do you fellows have that you can export? Zilch!

CPEC is china's dick that has entered through Pakistan's mouth and is going to exit from Pakistan's ass, thus a "GEOGRAPHIC BLOWJOB" by bitch Pakistan to the Chinese and for a very long time.

 

[rizwan78]

CPEC is china's dick that has entered through Pakistan's mouth and is going to exit from Pakistan's ass, thus a "GEOGRAPHIC BLOWJOB" by bitch Pakistan to the Chinese and for a very long time.

Be ready mate because USA is now ready to fight China till the last Indian..

 

[hit&run]

Indians you are not getting the point. The point is not Russians are conducting exercises with Pakistan that was eventually going to happen. The point is from now you and specially your Government and Media needs to shut the hell up and stop lying about isolating Pakistan at world stage. We are your daddies when it comes diplomacy and getting things done as we want. This delusion you have of some how you can isolate Pakistan has never have and never will work so grow up. As for exercises these happen between world militarizes. Even Russia and USA together participate in different exercises around the world so nothing new. Only thing is before opening your big mouth next time think 1000 times before doing it.

Yea we saw how Pakistani diplomacy save her in 1971. We saw how good friends USA hosted Nawaj Sharif when he went there to explain his victorious expedition of Kargil.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

We are your daddies when it comes diplomacy and getting things done as we want.

I could agree about Russia but it's a ridiculously foolish statement over which even other Pakistanis may laugh.

1. How many countries does Pakistan has reached out at first place compared to India. India has diplomatic relations with most countries (even Non UN members) and now reaching out for 68 more.
2. India's own policy and Pakistan's by chance tenses relations with India brought Russia, not you.
3. It is still a very small achievement, Indians never chest thump when we do exercises with PRC.

This delusion you have of some how you can isolate Pakistan has never have and never will work so grow up. As for exercises these happen between world militarizes. Even Russia and USA together participate in different exercises around the world so nothing new. Only thing is before opening your big mouth next time think 1000 times before doing it.

Instead of using incredibly small mind to shut our large mouths, if you will check facts, we have been doing joint military exercises with US, Russia, PRC and many others for decades.:biggrin2:

Being pawn of few countries against or trolling India won't change that you still are aligned with few countries and so isolated because they use you only till you serve their interests.

 

[republic_roi97]

Be ready mate because USA is now ready to fight China till the last Indian..

LOL!! if you think that India is relying on US like you are relying on China, then you're a fool! India's ties with US are just for the sake of India's National Interest, Americans are not reliable and that our government learned a long time ago, that is why we are having stronger military and defence ties with Russia, Iran, Vietnam, etc which are America's enemies, we even ditched US for Iran while its sanctions.

Face it, you are heavily reliant on the chinese, if it isn't for China, you'd never have a chance against even Iran. And this CPEC is going to be the Chinese authority on you, they are not even letting your workers to work on main projects. :bounce::bounce:

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Be ready mate because USA is now ready to fight China till the last Indian..

Case is different that India possesses substantial economy and conventional military to determine the direction of the conflict unlike small and weakling cockroaches who suffering with ME TOO syndrome, compare them uselessly.
US and PRC are major forces with same economic and conventional military level.
Some steps behind, other one is India in catch up league, still forms a significant economic and military entity. But Pakistan is nowhere in picture. So, absurd to Equate India and US with Pakistan and China.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

This is good news. For decades India's foreign policy was a copy of Russian foreign policy. Russians had a monopoly on the whole Indian defense sector.
India was completely aligned with the communist world while claiming to be
A democracy. For decades India had no growth or development the good years may have seen 2 percent growth. The alignment with Russia had made more than a billion people insignificant in the international arena. In many ways this alignment benefitted Pakistan and gave them a clear diplomatic advantage that they utilized wisely. I am glad Russians broke this old Nehru slave relation mentality that Indians cherished for decades because Indian politicians still don't have a clue to accept the new world order and claim their stake in it.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

I would not stoop to the your replying kind level, but No mate, the real scenario of our Golden Economic Growth CPEC Project is just like "Bone is stuck in the throat" to the world.

CPEC is only golden for China and can't do much for pakistan except creating an infrastructure corridor and 1-2% to economic growth.
Yes, it's a bone struck because it gives unfair advantage to China over us.
Blame goes our socialist Nehru government who didn't buy Gwadar at correct time.
Gwadar is not meant to be flourishing port. Gwadar is being built because if in any case the Malacca strait is choked, china will have to find another route to keep importing oil--this is the sole purpose, and nothing more.

Go through these calculations below, this brilliant work was done by 'random.radio' on PDF, who also happens to be mod on another Indian defense forum.

In short, these calculations tell us that shipping through Gwadar port is costlier and more time consuming than transporting through seas, and distance between pakistani cities and Chinese flourishing cities is as much as distance between pakistani cities and major European cities, so if there is no land route trade happening between Europe and Pakistan, then certainly no trade will happen between china and Pakistan in large scale. And anything which is cheaper and quicker is always preferred, which is not the case for transporting through Gwadar.


"This is cost comparison for viability of CPEC.

Distance between Shanghai and Kashghar = 5121 Km
5121 Km - Distance from Shanghai to Kashgar

Distance between Kashghar and Gwadar = 2747 Km
2747 Km - Distance from Kashgar to Gwadar

Average Trucking cost per Ton per Km in China = 5 cents.
http://www.worldbank.org/transport/transportresults/regions/eap/eap-china-output.pdf

Average Trucking cost per Ton per Km in Pakistan = 1.8 cents.
https://www.iisd.org/gsi/sites/default/files/ffs_india_irade_trucking.pdf

These cost are of 2002 and would have become 7 cents for China and 3 cents for Pakistan, just by taking inflation into account.This is the most conservative calculation as I am not taking into account Hazard premium that nature of Terrain imposes on Pakistan (Karakoram Highway is rated world's fourth most dangerous highway World's 10 dangerous roads | CNN Travel ) and Hazard premium that China has to pay for transporting good through Takla Makan Desert , Kulun Shan mountains range, and Altai Shanmountain range.

But still let us calculate cost of transporting a Tonn of good from Shanghai to Gwadar.

Cost incurred in Chinese territory = 0.07 X 5121 = $358.47
Cost incurred in Pakistani territory = 0.03 X 2747 = $82.41
So total cost from Shanghai to Gwadar for a tonn of goods= $440.88

Now let destination port be Dubai.
Cost of Transporting Dubai to Shanghai = $625 per TEU
http://www.simic.net.cn/news_list.php?lan=en&id=368&flag=cnports&pname=shanghai&page=10

Since standard 1 TEU= 21,600 Kg : Cost of Transporting 1 Ton via sea from Dubai to Shanghai = $28.93
Twenty-foot equivalent unit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Similarly cost from Karachi to Dubai for 1 TEU = $125 (rate for Gwadar are not available as port is not operational)BusinessDubai.com - Bizneeds

Cost of Transporting 1 Ton from Karachi to Dubai = $5.787
Total cost of Shipping a Ton from Shanghai to Dubai via Gwadar = $446.67

Total cost of Shipping directly from Dubai to Shangahi = $28.93 which is 16 times less than that of Transporting via Gwadar.Heck Total cost of Transport from Gwadar to Chinese border is more than what would be required for Transport from Dubai to Shanghai.
This is time viability calculation for CPEC.
Let's calculate time. In order to give CPEC some leeway, I am expecting that a Truck would not stop anywhere (No rest for drivers, no checkpoints, no fuel or repair break) and assume that a Truck runs 24 Hours at 30Kmph, and I am neglecting time it would be needed to transfer goods in Gwadar.

Time required for Travel = 262 Hours = 11 Days.
Time required for transport of a container from Dubai to Karachi = 5 days
BusinessDubai.com - Bizneeds
Total time required for overland transport when your drivers and port handlers are superman = 16 days.
Time required to transport a container from Dubai to Shanghai via sea = 15 Days.
Calculating Container Shipping Time
This was an outlier calculation.
Let's be realistic.
Assume that a driver drives for 12 hour per day, it would take and on average take a day extra to go through customs and refuelling stop.

It would take him 91.57 hours to reach Kashghar, which would be equal to 7.7 days or 8.7 days taking pit stops into account.

Let's assume that it takes only a day to transfer cargo from a Pakistani to a Chinese truck. The time spent before that Truck moves towards CHina is 9.7 Hours.

That Truck would take 170 Hours to reach SHanghai from Kashghar. ie 14 days of driving and assuming two days for pit stops, 16 days.

Now we assume that Gwadar system is as efficient as that of Karachi, it would take 6 days to clear import formalities.
Import Clearance Procedure -- Mehran Corporation Karachi Pakistan
Thus the total time it would need to transport goods from Dubai to Shanghai via Gwadar would be 37 days compared to 15 days it would take to reach Dubai from Shanghai via Malacca.Even reaching border of China-Pakistan would take more time (21 days vs 15 days) than transporting a container from Dubai to remotest part of Chinese seaboard.
This is about growth potential calculation for CPEC:
Following provinces are close to CPEC

1. XinXiang: Area 1664900 Sq Km; Pop 22.09 million

2. Qinghai: Area 720,000 Sq km; Pop 5.58 million

3. Gansu : Area 425,800 Sq Km; Pop 25.64 million

4. Inner Mongolia: Area 1183,000Sq Km; Pop 24.82 million

5. Tibet: Area 1228400 Sq Km; Pop 3.145 million

Total area of these provinces = 5222100 Sq km. This is 54% of Total area of China , and an area 6.6 times that of Pakistan; while its population is just 81 million which is 6% of Chines population and less than half (0.44 times) of Pakistani population.This is the extent of how sparsely populated Western part of China is. You share border with Takla Makan desert of China.

Highway and Economic corridors brings prosperity when Economic depression of a region is due to that region being cut off from rest of country. In this case, underdevelopment is due to geographical factors, not due to infrastructure factors. Deserts, cold arid Plateaus, and mountains reduce your Economic potential (unless you harness them for tourism like Switzerland).You could not put up factories in desert. You could not built cities in desert (Las Vegas would not count as that city exist because of Hoover dam). An area with such low population density does not have consumer base to build consumption driven economy. You could not build service industry in desert ,or any other low population density area because there is not enough qualified labour at any place,

CPEC is not airdropping in Western Qinghai so that it would have same effect on all of Western China; it is joining China in North-West corner of China ie Western corner of XinXiang (no 10). The only provinces that it could affect are no 10 (XinXiang) and its neighbours no9 (Tibet) ,no 8 (Qinghai) , no 7 (Gansu) in Western China, and no 4 (Inner Mongolia) in Northern China. I have already counted all these provinces.And I am being generous here. XinXiang itself is so large that CPEC has no chance of affecting even its neighbours.

People usually could not fathom that some provinces (mostly in Western China) are many times larger than even Pakistan itself. XinXiang is 2.1 times larger than Pakistan, Tibet is 1.54 times larger, Inner Mongolia 1.48 times larger, Qinghai equal to Pakistan, and Gansu half of Pakistan.

It needs to be understood that Eastern part of Western China is further away from Pakistan that even Europe! For example capital of Shaanxi (Taiyuan) is as far away from Islamabad by air (3559 Km) as Ankara (3600 Km) I am yet to understand this optimism of serving Eastern part of Western China.

let's do some analysis. I am calculating Islamabad so that you could get a grasp over distance as Ankara is 4400 Km away from Islamabad by road. and All distance henceforth are by road.

No 3 (Shaanxi), Capital (Taiyuan).

Distance of capital from Islamabad = 4904.3 Km
Distance of capital from nearest Chinese seaport (Tianjin)=943 Km
Distance of capital from Gwadar = 6644 Km

No 6 (Ningxia), Capital (Yinchuan)

Distance of capital from Islamabad = 4337 Km
Distance of capital from nearest Chinese seaport (Tianjin)= 1200 Km
Distance of capital from Gwadar = 6077 Km
No 1 (Chongquing) , No capital

Distance of Chongquibg from Islamabad = 5069 Km
Distance of Chongquing from nearest Chinese seaport = 0 Km. After construction of Three Gorges Dam, barring largest cargo Ship, Ocean going ships could sail upto Chongquing.
But still distance between Chongquing and Shanghai is 1689 Km
Distance of Chongquing from Gwadar = 6843 Km

no 4 (Guzihou) , capital (gulyang)
Distance of capital from Islamabad = 5459 Km
Distance of capital from nearest Chinese seaport (Beihai) = 796 Km
Distance of capital from Gwadar = 7199 Km

No 5 (Yunnan) , capital (Kuming)
Distance of capital from Islamabad = 5859 Km
Distance of capital from nearest Chinese seaport (Beihai) = 1024 Km
Distance of capital from Gwadar = 7635 Km

No 2 (Sichuan) , capital (Chengdu)
Distance of capital from Islamabad = 4976 Km
Distance of capital from nearest Chinese seaport (Chongquing) = 326 Km and (Shanghai) = 1968 Km
Distance of capital from Gwadar = 6716 Km

All these Western provinces of China are farther away from Gwadar than Western Europe is from Pakistan by Road. Distance between Islamabad and Berlin by road is 6353 Km , and of Paris is 7300 Km; nearly of the order of distance of Gwadar from any of Eastern provinces of Western China.

Anyway China does not even intend to use Gwadar for these provinces. It already has a corridor via Myanmaar (Yunnan border Myanmar) for redundancy.

I could do same calculation for Chahbar too. It would take max half an hour for me, though I do not see any point as India is developing Chahbar as strategic port, rather than for financial benefits. Similar to what China is doing with Gwadar.
The province of China that borders Pakistan and provinces of China that borders that province along with their bordering provinces cover 54% of China's landmass and have only 6% of population because they are mostly deserts, mountains, and high altitude plateau.There are no consumers in provinces to develop them.

XinXiang is 2.1 times larger than Pakistan, Tibet is 1.54 times larger, Inner Mongolia 1.48 times larger, Qinghai equal to Pakistan, and Gansu half of Pakistan. People who think that CPEC would be used for trade with China has not fathmoned how big China is. Even Takla Makan desert which lies beyond Kashi is larger than Pakistan.

Apart from that most of cities in Western China are farther from Islamabad than European capital by road. Shaanxi (Taiyuan) is 4900 Km from Islamabad by road, Ningxia (Yinchuan) is 4300 Km, Choquinin is 5000 Km, Ghuzihou (gulyang) is 5500Km away, Yunan(Kuming) is 5900Km, and Sichuan (Chengdu) is 5000Km away from Islamabad. Compare to this, Distance between Berlin and Islamabad is 6300 K and Paris is 7300 Km by road. People who think that CPEC would lead to trade with Western China need to look at volume of Pakistan-Germany trade by road to fathom its potential.
CPEC is nothing but an insurance policy of China."

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Gwadar is not meant to be flourishing port. Gwadar is being built because if in any case the Malacca strait is choked, china will have to find another route to keep importing oil--this is the sole purpose, and nothing more.
"

At one time Singapore was also a port that Chinese were developing.
China still has a choke point for oil in the Persian gulf where USA and India
Both have a strong presence. Gwadar is more of a military advantage for the Chinese.