700 billion USD to be invested on China's railway during 2009-2012

badguy2000

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The capacity utilization of Wuhan-Guangzhou is over 100% again this past week because of Guangzhou people flowing to Wuhan watching Cherry Blossom. This weekend, millions people on Wuhan street watching Cherry Blossom. The ticket for Cherry Blossom is 140 RMB.

Wuhan university has one of the best Cherry Blossom and it is in university campus. So 300K went there, one third of driving their car. University has to sale a ticket of 1 RMB in order to stop the people. I do not think it works. Next year, they can try 100 RMB ticket. You can look at the below picture.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=...y&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
 

Armand2REP

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Could you define the term of profitable ?
If you mean how long it will take for the Railway Ministry to make enough money by selling train tickets to pay back the investment, then i have to admit it will take at least 30-50 years or longer because such direct profit will be limited if compared with the huge investment in the short run.

But railway industry is a special sector, which as well as other infrastructures is not meant for making money directly, on the contrary is meant for assisting the development of other sectors. So in the long turn, the indirect benefit it brings on will be enormous if compared with the direct profit it can get by selling train tickets.

Put economic benefits aside, just the time cost it can save will be very considerable.
Faulty reasoning. There isn't anything highspeed rail does for the economy that conventional rail doesn't. It still only moves people around and the freight on highspeed rails moves much slower than passenger service. China already has a fairly efficient rail system. Adding high speed lines is just a luxery for the rich. Spending a trillion USD by 2012 on such projects is asking for longterm NPLs that cannot be serviced. High speed rail maintenance costs are far higher than conventional rail. If you don't get a good price and good occupancy rates, you will bankrupt the programme. Europe has a far higher level of disposable income to spend on TGV tickets, yet we experienced quite a few unprofitable ventures. Building lines that cost an arm and a leg and expecting a bunch of broke peasants to ride it is the dumbest decision of the century.
 
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Daredevil

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This from the article in NYtimes is interesting

But the high-speed trains, which average speeds of up to 215 miles an hour, have their critics here. Heavily subsidized regular trains, which require 11 hours for the trip from Guangzhou to Wuhan, cost $20.50 one-way. The bullet train costs $72, or one to three weeks’ pay for an assembly line worker.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/13/business/global/13rail.html
So who are the people HSR is targeting as the normal peasant/worker cannot afford to take HSR.
 

gogbot

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The capacity utilization of Wuhan-Guangzhou is over 100% again this past week because of Guangzhou people flowing to Wuhan watching Cherry Blossom. This weekend, millions people on Wuhan street watching Cherry Blossom. The ticket for Cherry Blossom is 140 RMB.

Wuhan university has one of the best Cherry Blossom and it is in university campus. So 300K went there, one third of driving their car. University has to sale a ticket of 1 RMB in order to stop the people. I do not think it works. Next year, they can try 100 RMB ticket. You can look at the below picture.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=...y&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
So you decided to build a 700 billion dollar railway.

Did you mistake the cherry blossoms for Yuan. Money don't grow on trees.


Why is the HSR being built, so quickly and so fast. at the cost of 700 billion dollars of the peoples money.

Can you give me no figure or numbers supporting the plan's Goliath price.

700 billion dollars for HSR primarily to go from north to south in china. what are you getting for it.
 

nimo_cn

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Nimo_cn,

I am certainly not disputing the overall benefit this project will bring about to the industry as a whole which can be visualized and if calculated from there the profitability (per se) can as well be seen, but through different aspects as you and ohimalaya are trying to put across. One can see to just what huge extent this will push the exports of the country once the interlinking of HSR happens with rest of the world especially with EU, CAR, Russia, ASEAN, India and probably Africa someday, something that the prc will eventually eye for and the tremendous cost benefits it will bring about to the already cheap Chinese product line, with delivery at some phenomenal speed and all this will give some terrific competitive edge to products MiC.
Actually, these are what really concerns me. It is still unclear how much contribution the highspeed railway can make to the development of economy, given the huge investment that has been poured into it.

I was just interested in understanding the viability of this project stand alone, mind you even after break-even point the losses can and do happen if the operating/fluctuating costs are not curtailed.
As i said, i can not answer the question about the viability of this project stand alone. No specific statistics has been disclosed yet. My personal opinion is the break-even point can't be reached in a near future. You can refer to the HSR in other countries such as Japan, Europe.


But i want to tell you, China didn't make the decision to build highspeed railway out of impulse, China's HSR plan can date back to as early as the late 90s. Since the idea of HSR was raised, China has done a lot of research on the viability of this project which i believe include the profitability of the project, China even developed its own highspeed train.

Now that you say the concerned minister says 14years for the BE to be achieved then that has to be exceptional since I have never come across a business model related to infrastructure and that too which focuses in just one specific area and which is quite high-end (in here the HSR) can do it at such break neck speed. If you guys can pull if off as claimed by the minister then this project is sure to resonate in all the top global business schools as a classic case study.

Anyways all the best for it.
Yes, i agree with you, it is exceptional, that is why i dont use it as a proof of the profitability of the HSR.
The HSR connecting Guangzhou and Wuhan is part of the line between Beijing and Guangzhou, which links the north and south of China and is compared to tbe north-south artery of China. It is one of the busiest lines in China, so the claim made by the authourity is reasonable. But i dont think this case can be applied to other HSR projects.
 

Daredevil

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China Rail Chief's Firing Hints at Trouble

By MICHAEL WINES and KEITH BRADSHER

BEIJING — In his seven years as chief of the Chinese Railways Ministry, Liu Zhijun built a commercial and political colossus that spanned continents and elevated the lowly train to a national symbol of pride and technological prowess.

His abrupt sacking by the Communist Party is casting that empire in a decidedly different light, raising doubts not only about Mr. Liu's stewardship and the corruption that dogs China's vast public-works projects, but also, perhaps, the safety, financial soundness and long-term viability of a rail system that has captured the world's attention.

Mr. Liu, 58, was fired Saturday and is being investigated by the party's disciplinary committee for "severe violations of discipline," a euphemism for corruption. His high government rank — minister-level officials are rarely fired under such a cloud — hints at far deeper dissatisfaction with one of China's most publicized and sweeping domestic initiatives.

Until last week, Mr. Liu had led China's program to lace the nation with nearly 8,100 miles of high-speed rail lines and to build more than 11,000 miles of traditional railroad lines. The sheer size and cost of the endeavor — the investment has been estimated at $750 billion, some $395 billion for high-speed rail alone — has led experts to compare it to the transcontinental railroad that opened the American West.

President Obama hailed China's program in his State of the Union address and called for the United States to move quickly on high-speed rail plans that had been repeatedly delayed by budget concerns and political infighting.

Whatever their problems with Mr. Liu, Chinese officials indicated this week that the high-speed rail project would proceed with the government's full support. But they have not explained why they summarily fired the leader of one of their signature projects.

There are some clues in top officials' public statements since the scandal broke. Speaking on Monday in Beijing, the official who is believed to be the country's new railways chief, Sheng Guangzu, said the ministry would "place quality and safety at the center of construction projects." For good measure, he added that safety was his highest priority.

The statement underscored concerns in some quarters that Mr. Liu cut corners in his all-out push to extend the rail system and to keep the project on schedule and within its budget. No accidents have been reported on the high-speed rail network, but reports suggest that construction quality may at times have been shoddy.

A person with ties to the ministry said that the concrete bases for the system's tracks were so cheaply made, with inadequate use of chemical hardening agents, that trains would be unable to maintain their current speeds of about 217 miles per hour for more than a few years. In as little as five years, lower speeds, possibly below about 186 miles per hour, could be required as the rails become less straight, the expert said.

Strong concrete pillars require a large dose of high-quality fly ash, the byproduct of burning coal. But the speed of construction has far exceeded the available supply, according to a 2008 study by a Chinese railway design institute.

Such problems, the expert said, are caused by a combination of tight controls that have kept China's costs far below Western levels and a strong aversion to buying higher-quality but more expensive equipment from foreign suppliers.

As expensive as it is, China's high-speed rail network has been built far more cheaply than similar projects in the West and in Japan. A mile of rail here costs roughly $15 million; in the United States, estimates peg the price at anywhere between $40 million to $80 million.

Japanese officials have already made an issue of the potential safety problems in the Chinese high-speed rail network. Yoshiyuki Kasai, the chairman of the Central Japan Railway Company, which runs Japan's fastest bullet train, told The Financial Times last year that the Chinese were running trains based on Japan's designs, but at speeds 25 percent faster.

"I don't think they are paying the same attention to safety that we are," he said. "Pushing it that close to the limit is something we would absolutely never do."

Some of the criticism may be signs of envy that China has achieved so much at a speed and cost that other countries cannot match. Many multinational companies also resent China for tweaking foreign designs and building the equipment itself rather than importing it.

China's high-speed rail network is already the world's largest and among its fastest, and more lines are being built. Passenger rail traffic leapt to 1.68 billion trips last year, up 9.9 percent from 2009.

A new line from Beijing to Shanghai is scheduled to be finished by year's end. It will whisk passengers across a distance equal to a trip between New York and Atlanta in less than five hours. Amtrak trains require 18 hours for the journey.

The effort's success has earned admiration worldwide and had turned Mr. Liu into a global salesman for Chinese rail technology. In recent years he and others have sealed deals or opened talks for rail projects in Iran, Russia, Bulgaria, Turkey and elsewhere, including in California.

But projects of this scale in China inevitably involve corruption, and Mr. Liu's downfall suggests that the Railways Ministry is by no means an exception.

Reports in the Chinese press suggest that a broad inquiry into ministry corruption is under way. The business journal Caixin reported that Ding Shumiao, who leads a conglomerate in Shanxi Province, was being investigated in connection with a contract to supply noise barriers along high-speed rail lines.

The Economic Observer reported last month that Communist Party disciplinary officials had detained Luo Jinbao, a former Railways Ministry official who also had led two state-controlled companies involved in rail logistics. The ministry is building 18 modern rail-shipping centers across China.

Neither case has been officially linked to Mr. Liu's dismissal. But The Economic Observer, citing an unnamed Shanxi coal-mining executive, said that Mr. Luo had brought Ms. Ding and Mr. Liu together in 2000.

Two people with ties to the ministry said this week that the inquiry into Mr. Liu involved the ministry's purchase of noise-reduction barriers for high-speed rail, which could point to Ms. Ding's company. Both people refused to be identified out of fear that they would damage their access to ministry officials.

Railroad finances are yet another worry. Analysts have warned that the construction schedule ordered by Mr. Liu threatens to push the ministry's debt — already $170 billion last fall — to an unsustainable level
.

A 2010 analysis by China Minsheng Bank, reported this week by Caijing, found that the ministry's debts equaled 56 percent of its assets and could reach $455 billion, or 70 percent of its assets, by 2020. In his last months on the job, Mr. Liu had begun an aggressive program to deal with the debt by selling stakes in the railway to investors like large state-controlled banks.

The Minsheng report suggested that the high-speed network may remain a money-loser for the next 20 years, despite heavy use. Ticket prices — several times those for a conventional train — have led to a backlash among some Chinese.

The timing of Mr. Liu's dismissal may be significant: He was fired at the end of China's Lunar New Year holiday, when trains are jammed, tickets are scalped at exorbitant prices and passengers are angriest.

The Communist Party has long worried that corruption may undermine its credibility with the public. But outside analysts agree that high-level officials are seldom sacked for corruption alone, in part because kickbacks, favoritism and other below-board activities are so common.

Russell Leigh Moses, a scholar of the Chinese leadership, said that Mr. Liu's dismissal could signal disquiet over whether expansion of the rail system had gone too far, too fast.

"You don't take someone down at that level of status unless they've done something really egregious," said Mr. Moses, who works in Beijing. "I don't know whether it's politics or policy. But I wouldn't rule out the second."

Keith Bradsher contributed reporting from Hong Kong. Jonathan Kaiman contributed research from Beijing.
 

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