23 Pak troops killed or injured in ambush

[hit&run]

as the confessions of Headley and Kasab clearly show.

This means war for any other nation. I can add evidence provided by a third party on Kabul embassy attack as well.
How disillusioned Indians will be able achieve peace is what i always wonder.

 

[Known_Unknown]

How disillusioned Indians will be able achieve peace is what i always wonder.

Unfortunately, peace is not possible unless we are able to impose it on Pakistan. Peace is a two way street, unless the PA/ISI see the folly of provoking India, they will keep sponsoring cross-border terrorism. You saw how Musharaff fell into line quickly after the US threatened to bomb them to the Stone Age. That's the kind of military disparity India should aim to achieve. It is only then that Pakistan will stop hurting India. Peace will then automatically follow, along with the handing over of PoK.

In twenty years time, and with the required strategic vision, this should not be a big task.

 

[nitesh]

What has being like the Indian Army got us so far? Despite being far superior to them in economic and military terms, India has always underperformed when it came to military engagements against them. Our sharafat resulted in them still holding on to peaks they captured during Kargil, frittering away our gains in 1965, and them stabbing us in the back every time we made a peace overture. Our sharafat is the bane of our civilization. We should try to eliminate our weaknesses, not try to make a virtue out of them.

I want the Indian Army to be like the Red Army. Show no mercy, accept no defeat and adopt the doctrine of both eyes and ears and nose for an eye. For that, the stranglehold of peacenik bureaucrats and politicians like MMS has to change, and we have to develop the backbone to fight to snatch what is ours.

Indian history is littered with the foolish magnanimity of rulers resulting in their end at the hands of their enemies. It is time Indians realized and corrected this civilizational flaw.

Although we are getting off topic but I want to put my point that IA works as professional army not like a terrorist organization (read PA or red army) whose job is grab power it just follows the order and achieve the objectives stated in the order it does not take decision on it's own the past mistakes can not be repeated as we don't have single person responsible for decisions it's collective responsibility. I request if we want to continue further on this it should not be in this thread

 

[Known_Unknown]

Although we are getting off topic but I want to put my point that IA works as professional army not like a terrorist organization (read PA or red army) whose job is grab power it just follows the order and achieve the objectives stated in the order it does not take decision on it's own the past mistakes can not be repeated as we don't have single person responsible for decisions it's collective responsibility. I request if we want to continue further on this it should not be in this thread

Just to clarify, by Red Army, I am referring to the Soviet Army.

 

[nitesh]

Just to clarify, by Red Army, I am referring to the Soviet Army.

Thanks for clearing the air

 

[ganesh177]

What makes you think that the PA is killing these terrorists for India? They are after them because the security of their own country is at stake. The moment they believe that the terrorists pose no threat to them, they will stop all operations. Whenever India asks them to prosecute or eliminate the terrorists that threaten India, they demand evidence, but against the terrorists in their tribal areas, they don't need any of that....they kill them and any unfortunate civilians that happen to be there with impunity.

It is utterly naive to think that just because Pakistan is fighting a "War on Terrorists", that Pakistan's and India's goals are the same. Till now, Pakistan has not yet taken any tangible action against the Lashkar-e-Toiba, Hizbul Mujahideen and the numerous other terrorists operating against India. In fact, they allowed the United Jihad Front of terrorists to openly hold rallies and threaten Indian security recently. Not only are they free to operate, they are still being trained and financed by the ISI and Pakistan Army as the confessions of Headley and Kasab clearly show.

The Pakistan Army will NEVER shut down the support for Kashmiri terrorists and uproot them from its soil. They will NEVER seek peace with India, because peace with India means they lose all rationale for the role they play in Pakistani society. The PA and ISI's interest is to see their stranglehold remain in Pakistani society, and that will only happen if they can use the India bogey to scare the Pakistani people.

Yes i am aware of these thing, and that is what i have already said that there needs to be transparency in this operation of PA and any extremist including anti-india shud be crushed. Alsi i said that it has not happened so far. Neither i am too hopefull about it though.

What India needs to do in this situation is to use Pakistan's weakness against itself. Train, finance and arm the Pakistani Taliban, Baluchi freedom fighters, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, and Jundullah. Keep the PA/ISI busy so they will not think of attacking India. At the same time, never make the separatists so powerful that they can effect any significant political changes in Pakistan. Keep them on a slow burn, and at the same time, focus on economic and military growth. Let a decade or two go by, and by that time, India will be far superior in every indicator. Pakistan will still be in the doldrums though, so by then, India should force a settlement of its choice in Kashmir.

So basically you are accepting that RAW is already inviolved in pakistan, in strenghtning taliban ?

If its true then there can be only 2 situations, that taliban remains under influence of raw and works against pakistan. Or pakistan take control of taliban again and prepare against india for another kargil or worst. It can go any way.

 

[Singh]

I have quickly glossed over this thread. Would like to make a few quick points.

1. Are Taliban an American creation ?

US never created Taliban. US CAN be blamed for leading to the mess which created Taliban but US did NOT explicitly create the Taliban. No wonder that US did NOT recognize Taliban Afghanistan.

2. Aren't Taliban, the Mujhaideen created by the Americans ?

They are NOTthe "Mujhaideen" who fought the Soviets.

3. Then who are the Taliban ?

We need to make a distinction between the various branches of Taliban.

The Afghan Taliban who ruled Afghanistan, were mostly the Afghan refugees based/born/bred in Pakistan. They were the product of the
Deobandi Madrassas. Thousands of these madrasas dot the Af-pak border, and were bankrolled by the Arabs. They were born into abject poverty and the madrasas were their refuge. They were brainwashed islamists who were more knowledgeable in Taliban culture and had not been exposed to the rich Afghan culture. They were also supported by Pak establishment people, recruits from all over Pakistan.
The Seraiki/South Punjabi Taliban are again those belonging to the Deobandi Madrasas. These Madrasas provide refuge to the kids of poor seraikis and give the children food, education, shelter and teach them proper "Islam". Remember that South Punjab had a rich Barelvi and Sufi heritage but Deobandis are supreme now. There is also an aspect of class war exhibited in the formation of Seraiki Taliban. South Punjab has a lethal combination of feudalism, exploitation, islamism and poverty. Mullahs are asserting their power using the brainwashed madrasas educated youth.

The Swati) Taliban are Not brainwashed or hardened Islamists but are in most cases illiterate poor youth who are enjoying the trappings of power after possibly hundreds of years of feudal rule. They are exploiting both the poverty and class war in Swat. They have driven out the landlords, the erstwhile powerplayers. Some Talibani factions could be looking upto them but none really support them.

The Present Afghan Taliban are comprised of remnants of the Afghan Taliban and also fresh Pakistani and Afghan recruits. Their agenda is simple to defeat the US in Astan. They have support from powerful quarters in Pakistan and also in Astan. They however may or may not listen to the establishment but they do not attack Pakistan establishment. Many Afghan druglords, erstwhile warlords, powerful leaders, poor folk have allied/joined with this new Pashtun Taliban but are not necessarily Taliban in outlook, their loyalties can be bought. Infact many of their "soldiers" in Afghanistan are unemployed afghan pashtun folks and not necessarily hardened islamists or well trained soldiers. While the Pakistanis (Pashtun, Punjabi etc) are loyal and trained soldiers. Again there are several networks whose aim is solely to rid Afghanistan of US.

The Mehsud/TTP Taliban (Anti-Pak Taliban) are an interesting case. They were a group of disparate independent Taliban, islamists, militant and mujhaideen networks who banded together. They were able to usurp power in FATA by eliminating the tribal elders, then driving out the Pak military and subsequently forming their own islamic emirate. Infact Pak military action in NWFP, support for WoT, lal masjid, Nato's "invasion" of Afghanistan etc. was duly exploited by them. Many of their supporters and allies are non Pashtun Islamists belonging to erstwhile patronised and now banned extremist organizations (like the Seraiki Taliban and banned extremist organizations). They have some patrons in Pak establishment but the locals "supposedly" resent them. There is also an element of subnationalism in their movement. However their goal imho is to consolidate and hang onto their gains.

Misc Taliban most likely either an extremist organization or band of criminals using Taliban as a cover to carry out criminal activities.

4. Who created the Taliban ?

For the various Taliban - Zia's Islamism, Feudalism, Lack of Governance, Lack of development and/or Arab Money.

 

[Soham]

^^^

thank you very much for that. They were much needed.

 

[hit&run]

They have support from powerful quarters in Pakistan
They have some patrons in Pak establishment but the locals "supposedly" resent them. There is also an element of subnationalism in their movement. However their goal imho is to consolidate and hang onto their gains.
For the various Taliban - Zia's Islamism, Feudalism, Lack of Governance, Lack of development and/or Arab Money.

Thanks for going in details but political instabilities and insurgencies brings such anarchy, lawlessness and crime by default/indirectly.We have seen such opportunist organised anarchies in India as well. However you were too soft on many Important factors which lead to the proliferation of Taliban directly. How can you forget not to mention the greed of gaining Strategic depth in Afghanistan by PA encouraged/supported/funded and provided base to this organization now with many branches but not at the start.

Here is different version by ISI chief himself contradicting both of us.
http://www.aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=3&id=16526

 

[Singh]

Thanks for going in details but political instabilities and insurgencies brings such anarchy, lawlessness and crime by default/indirectly.We have seen such opportunist organised anarchies in India as well. However you were too soft on many Important factors which lead to the proliferation of Taliban directly. How can you forget not to mention the greed of gaining Strategic depth in Afghanistan by PA encouraged/supported/funded and provided base to this organization now with many branches but not at the start.

Correct. However, I didn't delve into the reasons why Pak establishment is supporting them "currently".


One of the reason is Strategic Depth definitely. Though there is no clear definition on what Pakistan means by "strategic depth".

However most importantly we must keep in mind is that the Afghans, even Afghan Taliban, don't consider Durand Line to be the border. This has grave implications. And also Balochistan shares border with Afghanistan.

Here is different version by ISI chief himself contradicting both of us.
http://www.aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=3&id=16526

Former ISI Chief and a Loony !

 

[ahmedsid]

Singhy, Awesome post! Never thought of it that way! No wonder you get so many reps! I will be analysing it from your POV!

 

[DaRk WaVe]

What war are you talking about? PA is just killing civilians using heavy weapons and that is genocide nothing else

wrong, the use of heavy weapons & misguided air strikes in no way are akin to genocide, it just don't fir the definition of genocide, may be you have some other definition of genocide but some sources disagree with you i.e its deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

Again shifting blame to others huh it was PA which converted your people in to monster they are responsible for it US has used you as usually and now killing you on it's will. If Pakistan has guts get out of the equation but wait ......... what happens to money that is coming then..... uh why PA should care they have the state with them they will kill people as it suits them and also foreigners as long as they are paying the money.

The basic point still remains PA PA and state policy of using terrorism as tool is back firing and they as usually acting like terrorists killing civilians with impunity along with foreigners

not shifting it, just denying your linear equation with PA/ISI as the only variables, the point remains, its was collective responsibility but whocares now who created them? our side of Durand line is 90% clear & the myth of their invincibility is breaking

 

[hit&run]

& the myth of their invincibility is breaking

And the war is not yet over...

 

[sob]

EmO where did the 90% figure come from. Is it that 90% dead or that is the sum total of dead Talibans and those hiding.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

It will be wrong to Blame pakistani army that it uses just heavy weapons or in particular fire arms against taliban!

They use belts, sticks, kicks, punches, slaps etc etc effectively to create Youtube videos to scare pakistani islamic terrorist taliban, created by them to serve them against the jihad against rest of the kafir world (if possible Shia Iran or any other country which will not accept pakistan as an delusional power to rule over them) in particular India! (But the islamic mad dog bites its own slave master as this master lacks teeth, economy, commerce, intellect, sanity, objetivity, secularism, pluralistic society, tolerance etc etc etc etc etc)

whats the point, PA is using some sticks to hit some people & force them to speak out?
nothing unnatural about it, these controlled hits are part of the investigation every where around the world, may be only India is the country where some slaps are not used by investigation authorities, Criminals in India are very shwwwaeet, they say every thing straight away

 

[DaRk WaVe]

EmO where did the 90% figure come from. Is it that 90% dead or that is the sum total of dead Talibans and those hiding.

by 90% i mean the the capability of theirs to be operating from Pakistan's side of border, I have posted a Article by Reuter Reporter, turn the pages & you will find it

 

[DaRk WaVe]

RIP for Pak Army soldiers? Why? When did they offer their "RIPs" for the thousands of people killed in India due to terrorism sponsored by them?

Edited

It is not in India's interest to see the Pak Army get rid of all terrorists/separatists in their country. The daily bombings in their country keep them busy so they can't think of attacking India as they have 4 times in the past. Loss of life anywhere is a tragedy, but if the constant killings in Pakistan work to prevent the deaths of Indian forces and civilians, then the more the merrier!

don't worry it will end sooner or later, after all even after 26/11 & 2001 what India could do at most was wail & scream, Assemble armies on border & then withdraw, I know now you will be all down to give me the lessons of Indian Innocence & tolerance

 

[BunBunCake]

wrong, the use of heavy weapons & misguided air strikes in no way are akin to genocide, it just don't fir the definition of genocide, may be you have some other definition of genocide but some sources disagree with you i.e its deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

Yes, you're right.
It's called Homicide.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

Yes, you're right.
It's called Homicide.

its called collateral damage, Genius

 

[sob]

By no stretch of imagination this can be called collateral damage. Let us not use words that defy the situation on ground