Discussion in 'China' started by Armand2REP, Apr 26, 2010.
Baloch Insurgency is also not comparable with Taliban Problem, Dynamics of both are different
Well US is not fighting it's own people so what US does does not matters here the fact still remains that PA turned your country men to cavemen and now killing them
The difference is significant from the counts.
good, so you accept that there ain't any genocide going on, Yes we will like to clean up the mess & as i said before the responsibility of this mess is also shared by US & they are also cleaning it
didnt got your meaning, dont have time to read it all,will come after reading it, explain in simple lines, if u can
Where I accepted your PoV? I said clearly it's the PA who converted own people in to cave men and now killing them
Very true =)
Emo posted something about Hillary admitting that the US created Taliban, etc.
Where did your Army and Government's sense go??????
but killing some rouge elements systematically is not genocide & again stop simplifying things down to ISI/PA, West shares the responsibility Accept that as well or prove me wrong
MOD EDIT: Emo don't resort to personal attacks please
Well what west does does not matters it is still your state philosophy's problem of using terrorism as policy of which PA/ISI are major player. Wow so you kill rouge elements with artillery. planes and tanks?
I told you that there is a MODEL followed by ISAF & PA which employs Heavy Weapons & Precision Air Strikes, I repeat you are over simplifying the role of ISI/PA, & yes its in our state & we are dealing with it
Heavy weapons are used against enemies to kill them not on your own people and using your army to kill your people which were given wrong path by the establishment itself is akin to genocide
BS, I have mentioned that Model employed was to evacuate the civilians first & then use the power, the model was designed to minimize the the collateral damage & Security Personnel casualties , Similar model was used in Marja Operation by ISAF & same is under consideration by US & i have posted link before, go read it again
there is something indeed good in the model followed by PA thats by US is giving it importance
Thhe point is that the PA and the establishment created the Taliban. Don't forget the contribution of the Saudis also along with the Americans. But there was nobody holding a gun on Pakistan's head, to accept American help in creating the Mujhaideen/Taliban. Pakistan jumped in with their eyes open and salivating at the prospect of money and arms pouring in. They felt that with this they would forever be a regional power and keep India in their place. You cannot wash your hands off the monster created. Death by a thousand cuts was also used as a tool to inflict defeat on India.
And today the irony is that the same creature needs to be controlled by Heavy Artillery, Tanks, F-16s, LGMs.
US also gave importance to the trrorism model followed by Pak...was ther something good in that also ...
.. just a lil potshot .. dont quote me on this one
It still does not changes the basics that heavy weapons should not be used against own people it is akin to genocide. Don't bring US in to it as US is not fighting it's own people
who are you to say & define that 'heavy weapons should not be used'???
& BTW click below & see yourself & tell me from where is it a 'genocide', you can find the full Program as well
PA Fighting Taliban
or you can always ask the Indian Journalists who visited Bajur recently, lolzzz
If the Weapons at the disposal like Hellfires, LGBs, JDAMs, F-16Cs & even Rafales are giving the desired results then why not use it? Before you jump in with 'collateral damage' thing, I want to say that unfortunately non of these sophisticated weapons have 'Taliban Recognition Sensors"
Heavy weapons should not be used as it causes collateral damage
I am not interested in video are you saying that PA till now has not killed any civilians then use of heavy weapons can be justified
Why should i go and ask them if they publish any report in line with arguments then post it
Challenging the myths of Pakistanâ€™s turbulent northwest
KHAR, Pakistan â€“ I had not expected Pakistanâ€™s tribal areas to be so neat and so prosperous.
These are meant to be the badlands, mythologised as no-go areas by Kiplingesque images of xenophobic Pashtuns, jezail musket in hand, defying British troops from rugged clifftops.
They are the â€œungovernableâ€ lands where al Qaeda took sanctuary after the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan; the bastion of Islamist militants said to threaten the entire world.
Yet to fly by helicopter for the first time into Bajaur tribal agency is to challenge the more wildly imagined cliches about this little-visited region on the Pakistan-Afghan border.
Here, in the northernmost part of the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), you realise this region is no longer as ferocious as feared and that while militants still call the shots in parts of FATA, Bajaur at least is somewhat pacified.
The Pakistan army knows this and has brought us, a small group of foreign journalists, to Bajaur to try to convince us it has turned a corner in its battle against Islamist militants.
PAKISTAN-TRIBAL/WITNESSIt is a message we are given repeatedly on a whirlwind tour of the country. In Islamabad, the city is relatively relaxed despite the many checkpoints, the jacaranda trees are in bloom and families are back out strolling in the parks.
A minister reminisces about the bars of his student days; an official remembers the more peaceful country that existed before the jihad against the 1979-89 Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.
In Karachi, businessmen party through the power cuts and talk up the stock market; in Lahore, academics speak of the potential cultural revival of a country of 170 million people.
The still-frequent bombings and lingering militant hideouts, including in North Waziristan on the Afghan border, give plenty of grounds for scepticism. But visiting Bajaur is meant to make you believe that something has changed.
FORT UNDER SIEGE
Our helicopter lands in Khar, at a fort which less than two years ago was under siege with rockets raining down every day.
Authorities had ceded control of the surrounding area running up to the Afghan border to militants believed to have once offered sanctuary to al Qaeda leader Ayman al Zawahiri.
It became so bad that, according to one military official, the army feared even the fort would be overrun, the troops inside either massacred or taken prisoner en masse.
Outside the fort, the militants ran their own checkpoints, collected revenue, beheaded prisoners in the bazaar and convinced every family to offer up one male child to the cause.
Even reopening a marble factory required written permission from the militants; another man â€” according to the army â€” turned himself from labourer to landlord by successfully navigating the paperwork of their newly created bureaucracy.
Now we are able to drive out of the fort towards the border to inspect an abandoned former stronghold of the Taliban.
This is a region which we are told was run according to a 6,000-year-old tribal system â€” primitive say some, mature say others â€” where each individual was so clear of his or her obligation to society that it worked â€œperfectlyâ€ in its own way.
The fields are either neatly terraced or carefully laid out and the land is well-tended and fertile. If you have travelled in South Asia, it looks remarkably prosperous, either thanks to the old tribal order or money sent in by workers in the Gulf.
The terrain is hilly rather than rugged, although the mountains rise up at the Afghan border in the distance.
The old order broke down with the CIA-backed Pakistan-led jihad against the Soviets which stressed pan-Islamism over tribal loyalty; it nearly collapsed altogether with the flood of fighters fleeing the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan in 2001.
The militants became so entrenched that when Pakistani authorities tried to reassert control in 2008 by setting up a checkpoint at the regionâ€™s main crossroads, the 150 troops there found themselves surrounded by a thousand fighters.
They began to run out of water and ammunition and each party sent from Khar to rescue them was ambushed. Eventually, after fierce fighting, 140 made it back to Khar. But it was enough to convince the army to launch a full-scale military operation.
In February, the army cleared out the last of the main militant strongholds in Bajaur after months of intense fighting which destroyed villages, left gaping wounds in buildings from rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs), and sent villagers fleeing.
Our small group drives out of the fort of Khar in pick-up trucks, soldiers standing in the back around a rather alarming stack of black-tipped RPGs meant to guarantee our safety.
The roads here are better than in much of South Asia and we drive fast â€” presumably to avoid a bullet from a lone gunman or a remotely triggered IED. It is clear that while the strongholds may have been overrun, the area is still not secure.
Yet the atmosphere is less threatening than I had felt for example in Kashmir at the height of the insurgency there.
The crowds of men we come across along the road stare, but without menace. The young girls in white, their heads but not their faces covered, ignore us. Women are nowhere to be seen.
The soldiers who fan out when we reach the abandoned stronghold at Damadola some 20 minutes drive away, where local militant leader Fakir Mohammad once held court, are watchful but not jumpy.
At the very least, the myth of the â€œungovernableâ€ tribal areas â€” so beloved of Raj-era tales â€” has been broken.
The militants were so well entrenched at Damadola that only when the fighting intensified did they put up a sign asking local people to stop bringing their disputes for settlement.
As the army pressed forward, some militants escaped, including the leaders, into Afghanistan, or back into the population. Some were captured, many were killed. The last of them retreated into a warren of caves dug out of the hillside.
You have to stoop low to get through the narrow tunnel at the entrance to the caves, fighting claustrophobia before you can stand up straight again in a dark cavern.
The army says it cleared these caves one by one, throwing in smoke grenades and then opening fire. For some of the local boys, given up by their families to join the militants, this would be the last they saw of their neat and prosperous land.
not necessarily, see the video but you don't want to see it, you just want to close your eyes & keep passing comments without anything credible to support your comment about genocide, BTW its a program by a US Media outlet, see it with your eyes open & tell me how exactly use of Heavy Weapons & Air Strikes is causing Genocide
Turn the pages & tell one instant when i said there won't be any collateral damage at all, you just need to minimize it
The Hindu : News / International : In Bajaur, Pakistan Army faults U.S. strategy
Uh so we agree to the basic point that civilians are being killed and it is akin to genocide or may be if you come up with a different definition of killing civilians with heavy weapons
The link says:
Separate names with a comma.