22 fighter aircraft, including 10 MiG-21s, crashed since 2011

[t_co]

Also a note on the Mig 21 - based on the annual total amount I've seen from spare parts manifests from HAL/Russia's UAC divided by the yearly operating number of Mig 21 airframes (both publicly disclosed data points if you know where to look), the IAF is only maintaining its Mig 21 fleet to Soviet levels.

Sure, the IAF might train as hard in Mig 21s as their NATO counterparts, but the IAF is only maintaining the airframes to Soviet levels while doing so. What's more, basic principals of mechanical engineering show that the chances of airframe and engine failure climb exponentially as equipment nears the end of its service life, and continue to climb exponentially after the end of service life.

It's mostly a disconnect between the training and maintenance regimen that's to blame. If the IAF wants to train its pilots hard, it should learn to take better care of its airframes as well.

 

[mikhail]

Also a note on the Mig 21 - based on the annual total amount I've seen from spare parts manifests from HAL/Russia's UAC divided by the yearly operating number of Mig 21 airframes (both publicly disclosed data points if you know where to look), the IAF is only maintaining its Mig 21 fleet to Soviet levels.

Sure, the IAF might train as hard in Mig 21s as their NATO counterparts, but the IAF is only maintaining the airframes to Soviet levels while doing so. What's more, basic principals of mechanical engineering show that the chances of airframe and engine failure climb exponentially as equipment nears the end of its service life, and continue to climb exponentially after the end of service life.

It's mostly a disconnect between the training and maintenance regimen that's to blame. If the IAF wants to train its pilots hard, it should learn to take better care of its airframes as well.

for the first time here in DFI i think i totally agree with your opinion.the MIG-21 airframe was designed to fly at maximum of 2,500 hrs.so that means if one flies 200 hrs a year the airframe will last for approximately 10-12 years.but nearly all the IAF Mig-21 airframes(i am counting only the Bis and the Bison models) have crossed that timeline a long time ago but still the IAF wants its pilots to train as per NATO standard in these aircraft.it means that an average IAF pilot flying a Mig-21bis or Bison model has to clock at least 200 flying hrs each year.this kind of routine has taken a toll on the Mig-21 fleet and we can see the accidents as its direct result.the only thing that the IAF can do now is to maintain the airframe thoroughly and should follow a strict regulation regarding this if it wants to continue flying those Mig-21 for 200+ hrs a year.

 

[p2prada]

I have been advocating buying the 2nd hand M2000 from UAE. It adds muscle ot the IAF immediately and also allows them to retire the Mig 21s.

Both IAF and PAF tried and failed to procure the Mirage-2000 from UAE.

It became too expensive because both were bidding like it was an auction, or something like that.

 

[p2prada]

I do not know what was the reason but the underlying facts are very clear

1. We need to retire Mig 21s at the earliest. Bisons can go on for some time but the older variants need to be packed.

3. For whatever reason LCA is also off by 3-4 year time frame or maybe more. Also we do not know what is the level of preparedness at HAL for the assembly line.

Most of the older variants are barely even flying, meaning not up to the standards of IAF.

As for LCA, the IAF should have forced ADA to keep to the schedule with hydraulics instead of digital FBW. We would have been talking about inducting LCA Mk2 today.

And that's the problem today. No matter how advanced the LCA gets, IAF won't be buying enough because the threat level won't match what LCA can offer over 40 years. HAL's build speed is an obvious sticking point too. 200 Mig-21s need to be junked and the extra 80 MKIs are not enough. Rafale is years away from being a viable platform too.

It is the same all over. Even Sweden will only be upgrading their light aircraft. It makes sense to keep such an aircraft from 2000 to 2040, not from 2020 to 2060.

2025 is too much for Mig-21 anyway. It looks like there might be another major structural upgrade coming up.

 

[The Messiah]

Gift the damn planes to afghanistan ffs.

 

[t_co]

Gift the damn planes to afghanistan ffs.

The PR surrounding such a move would be pretty bad. "India gifts Afghanistan planes that kill their own pilots" etc. etc.

 

[bennedose]

You're confusing 150 hours per year with 2500 hours total, across the entire life of the airframe.

If you're flying 150 hours per year, then it takes 17 years to burn off 2500 hours. If you're flying 200 hours per year, it takes only 12 years. The average Mig 21 airframe in the IAF is over 20 years old.

Yes I did miss the "per year". But the IAF is not using aircraft beyond their airframe life because the oldest ones are retired and only the newer ones are being used. Crashes are NOT due to expired airframe life is what I am trying to say.

There are too many rumours and myths about the MiG 21. The only truth is that there are more accidents that we like to hear about. Unless we read what the air force is saying we will only be making wild guesses about what is wrong like "airframes too old". Even the media are not reading what the air force is saying.

 

[vishwaprasad]

mate,don't get angry on our Govt. as the reality is that the training of the IAF pilots is several notch below than that of the NATO standard due to the chronic shortage of all types of trainers(basic,intermediate and advance).it was only recently that the IAF started to induct the Hawk AJT aircrafts to its inventory which can be used both as an intermediate and an advanced jet and only a couple of months back IAF started to induct sizable numbers of Pilatus P-7 basic trainers in its inventory.before these inductions the IAF pilots used to train their basic courses in HAL HPT-32(Deepak) turboprop aircraft which were more than 30 years old and for their intermediate course the IAF used the Kiran HJT-16 which is more than 40 years old,then they used to train their advance flying courses directly in the Mig-21 supersonic fighters which was completely wrong as the descending speed of a basic Mig-21 aircraft is more than 3 times higher than that of an AJT aircraft.so many of the rookie pilots made the mistake of calculating the necessary speed reduction during their descend and hence most of them crashed their aircraft.so this is one of the reasons why the IAF had a crash rate which is many times higher than the accepted crash rate of NATO.
secondly,most of the aircraft in the current IAF inventory are of Soviet origin and we all know that the soviet designed airframes have a much shorter lifespan than that of their western counterparts.the soviets knew this and hence used to fly their aircraft for a maximum of 100-150 hrs in a year.but on the other hand the IAF maintains the strict NATO standard of flying atleast 200+ hrs a year for every aircraft and hence most of these soviet airframes get wear off due to this excessive flying hrs as they were not built for this.
so this is another major reason why the crash rate of the IAF is much higher than any of its western counterpart.Period!

Mikhail Bro....I have a reason to be angry on our Govt...simply because be it any party ruling, we always had/have leaders who just cannot address and fix up problems on time...

we had a shortage of advance trainers agreed, but look what amount of time our leadership took to just sign a deal for those hawks.....if this kind of problem was with any western nation or for that matter even japan/korea or middle east nations their govts would have fixed up these kind of problems without wasting a time....

MRCA saga I am listning from my teen aged days and still drama is going on....now 5th generation fighters are being tested even in neighbouhood, problem is IAF is in dire need of those multirole fighters and that problem is still not being fixed up.....

Army is in dire need of those 155 MM artillary guns and that problem is still not being fixed up.....

P-75 project is crawling at its own pace.......

We need a leadership which can fix up problems on time.....time has come to kick out those rotton oldies from power.....

 

[wodoo]

Lost so many even more than a war

New Delhi: In the last three years, 22 fighter aircraft, including 10 MiG-21 planes, and 18 helicopters of the armed n forces have crashed in which 49 people including 44 defence personnel were killed, Lok Sabha was informed today.

"From 2011-12 to 2012-13 and current year, 22 fighter aircraft including 10 MiG-21s and 18 helicopters of armed forces have crashed," Defence Minister AK Antony said in a written reply in Lok Sabha.

In these accidents, apart from the loss of aircraft, 44 defence personnel and five civilians lost their lives, he said.

Replying to another query, the Defence Minister said the government has plans of operating the MiG-21 Bison aircraft till 2025

"The upgraded version of MiG 21-Bis known as the Bison, is planned to be operational beyond 2019 up to 2025. MiG Bis is planned to be decommissioned in 2018 as originally scheduled," Antony said.

On the investigation into the VIP chopper deal, he said the CBI had earlier frozen the accounts of former IAF chief SP Tyagi and his relatives.

"However, subsequently all the bank accounts have been de-frozen as per a court order, imposing certain conditions on the bank account holders," he said.

On the ceasefire violations by Pakistan, Antony said in the last six months, there have been 33 such cases in which one Indian soldier has died while three have been injured.

He said in June alone, 11 such ceasefire violation incidents have been reported.
On the devastation caused by the floods in Uttarakhand, the Minister said around 48.3 kms of roads in stretches of strategic importance with BRO have been washed out.

The roads of strategic importance have been built along the China border, he added.

http://www.firstpost.com/india/22-f...ng-10-mig-21s-crashed-since-2011-1011563.html

 

[arnabmit]

‘IAF flagged MiG issues, but government response is slow’ | idrw.org

SOURCE: EXPRESS NEWS SERVICE

A post-mortem of the Indian Air Force's (IAF) MiG series of fighter jets has revealed that the aircrafts' engines were of poor quality and experienced several problems.

The problem ranges from oil leak, metallic particle in oil filters and hot air leak from rear casing, to trouble in compressor and even in turbine of MiG-27 aero engines. The defects are scary for the government, which has lost almost half of its MiG fleet to the crashes in the last 40 years, leaving 171 pilots and 39 civilians dead.

Although Defence Minister A K Antony had told Parliament last year that both human error and technical defects were responsible for MiG crashes, he conveniently forgot to inform people about horrific condition of government's state-of-the-art manufacturing unit.

"Most of the cause factors can be classified as defects during manufacturing or overhauling process. IAF has been flagging these issues but government's response is slow," said an official on the condition of anonymity.

It is learnt that all three MiGs-MiG-27, MiG-29 and MiG-21-are facing serious quality issues. MiG-27 suffered Low Pressure Turbine Rotor (LPTR) failure in at least 11 recent incidents. The HAL in some cases even lied while overhauling the LPTR, saying it had followed the overhaul manual but Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials said the procedure recommended by the original equipment manufacturer was not being implemented by the celebrated company.

There are more shocking facts conveniently swept under the carpet. The springs installed in fuel pump of MiG 21 engines are failing frequently. A MiG-21 Bison aircraft crashed in November 2012 in Gujarat which was attributed to spring failure. The documents suggest that of the five main fuel pumps fitted with HAL-manufactured springs, at least three springs failed, which is unforgivable as it would have certainly resulted in accidents. Shockingly, the main fuel pumps of MiG-21 Bison engine continue to leak fuel, despite four studies conducted and implemented since 1990s. It says despite incorporating changes, fuel leak from main fuel pump continued unabated from throttle end.

A senior official said flying operations of MiG-29 fleet are often suspended due to non-availability of critical accessories and poor quality of repairing. Even if one aircraft of the fleet is affected by the snag, the entire fleet is grounded till the problem is identified and resolved.

However, another reason behind the poor quality of production and engine repairs is attributed to mass production work in the last leg of production year, to achieve the target. For example, in the first six months of 2012-13 production year, HAL finished the work on only four MiG-29 engines, but in the last quarter of the year, four engines were completed within three months.

Similarly for MiG-27, the HAL finished the work on nine engines in nine months, but interestingly another nine engines were completed within the last three months. The issue was flagged by the MoD saying such trend is adversely affecting the quality of aero engines.