1965 Indo-Pak war: Facts and Fiction

Discussion in 'Military History' started by Daredevil, Dec 19, 2009.

  1. Yumdoot

    Yumdoot Regular Member

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    1) The Indian Navy was all but immobilized. Even when the Indian Navy in the words of its own officers was humiliated by the sneek raid on Dwarka. A decision to not deploy, was not without its rationale though. Indian Navy budget was going down for last 4/5 years and a large portion of the Indian Navy was undergoing repairs.

    2) While Indian Army did per the requirements, there were some low points also. The good officers did very well while the stupid officers made an absolute ass of themselves. Luckily the later kinds were not very many. Besides the Indian Army did not lack good fighters and officers, in quantities. There were some unbelievable personal heroism and personal fighting skills displayed. The post-62, rearmament was only half way through in the Indian Army. The then Army chief later mentioned that after the Kutch incident, he anticipated a Pakistani attack in Kashmir.

    3) IAF managed better but they were not given enough time and the then ACM has complained about that. IAF modernization had only just been sanctioned and it is alleged that the prevailing understanding was that airforces are only an adjunct to the ground forces. Nonetheless the operations were very well managed despite the IAF having to keep significant assets out of the war to take care of the Chinese, should they too try to take the benefit of the Pakistani belligerence. The modernization of IAF really took off after the 1965 war.

    4) The UN pressure was too much - even the USSR, that was helping arm us was diplomatically (in UN), not with us.

    5) India esp.under LBS was never supposed to win 1965. Pakis had been armed well by their benefactors - US & Chiina. Pakistanis thought they had the best attack plan that could be executed under the most favourable strategic situations (62 loss) and I thinks Pakistanis also believed that 65 was their last chance at getting Kashmir. But the LBS+Chavan combo broke all anticipations and perceptions. The Defence Minster had both the confidence of the PM and the maturity to take quick decisions autonomously. Both acted calmly and with purpose. These two guys probably were the biggest weapon in our hands.
     
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  2. rockey 71

    rockey 71 Senior Member Senior Member

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    1.Fol comments may be relevant:
    a. Pre-'65 War Pak economy was second only to Japan's in Asia. It was Bhutto more than anyone else who pushed Pakistan into Op Gibraltar without even rudimentary spade work. The War resulted in arresting Pakistan's galloping development and ruining the economy.
    b. Post Tashkent, Ayub was on course to rebuild the economy and make mends where he had committed mistakes in politics. Bhutto proved to be Brutus. History will prove that he lobbied into the Shia circles to oust Ayub. The FM was the first Sunni strongman in Pakistan. If you recollect the final advise to Ayub to leave came from the Shah of Iran who was on an impromptu visit. Thereafter Shia Yahya took over bypassing the constitutional claimant, Speaker Abdul Jabbar Khan. Even before the declarations were made Mithha's SSG troops were in President Ayub's house replacing the Sherdils, 5 Punjab.
    d. Brig Ahmed was the first army DG of erstwhile EPR. Later he became MS(C) to Ayub. As President, Ayub had appointed him DG, IB. His reports to Ayub of that period are explicit about the conspiracy/coup being hatched by Yahya and Bhutto to oust him. ISI and MI sources went counter to these. Ayub used to trust Yahya and Bhutto, whom he had brought up from a nobody on the recommendation of Nahid Iskandar Mirza.Some of these historic papers are preserved with the family of Ahmed. They would be most useful to a researcher - if his son retired Col Salman, SSG would allow access.
    e. Pak economy had again recovered somewhat by 1970. The '71 War has ruined it - for ever, it appears.
    2. I was CI of a Mujahid Trg Camp located in AK, commanded by an AKRF officer of INA background. "Volunteers" for the training were sent by the Distt Admin per requisition. At times it was discovered that a "volunteer" who had been trained and sent across, had come again as a new "volunteer". We found out that the DC of the Distt would send our requirement to the SP. The police chief in turn would send his cops to round up the youth in selected villages and send them as "volunteers". Essential indoctrination in AK and Indian J&K had not been done at all. Therefore, these forced volunteers were in no mood to fight. Neither were the local Kashmiris on the Indian side interested in this sudden enterprise.
     
  3. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    Please cut the crap. Only illiterate Pakis will swallow this pukistani story

    Pakistan's economy from 1956 to 1965 was supported almost entirely by US aid

    This page has a table of US aid to Pakistan from 1956 to 1965
    http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/poverty-matters/2011/jul/11/us-aid-to-pakistan
    I quote:
    Year US$ in millions
    1956 1065.67
    1957 1079.65
    1958 968.22
    1959 1367.93
    1960 1689.84
    1961 989.53
    1962 2334.65
    1963 2066.77
    1964 2222.6
    1965 1928.9

    The grand total works out to over 15 billion aid US$ in 10 years

    Pakistan's GDP in 1965 was 5.8 billion US$. So 33% of Pakistan's 1965 GDP was US aid

    Japan's GDP in 1965 was 90 billion dollars
     
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  4. rockey 71

    rockey 71 Senior Member Senior Member

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    1.Foreign aid is not necessarily a negative thing or a sin. How much aid does Isreal receive annually from USA? Your country has opened up since MMS was installed as the Fin Minister.
    2. My point about Pak economy is very much a fact. Why don't you Google and see values of PakRe - I/Rs - US $ during these years?
     
  5. bose

    bose Senior Member Senior Member

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    Pakistanis had overestimated it capabilities then ... they were darling of the western world, they armed Pakistanis and trained it from 10 years before the 1965 happened... If I am not known Pakistanis were the first country to have a submarine in the sub continent ... They were given Sabre jets and famed Patton Tanks...

    One of the Pakistani leaders also did said that they will reach Delhi in 24 hours with their Pattons ... Afsoos ... those pattons tanks were resting in the graveyard called Khemkaran / Pattonnagar...

    One may recall that Chinese Chau En Lai did proposed Pakistanis for a joint attack on India back in 1963 which Pakistanis did not considered ... probably they though 1 Pakistanis = 10 Indians...
     
  6. rockey 71

    rockey 71 Senior Member Senior Member

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    1.US Military Aid, CENTO and SEATO greatly helped Pakistan in equipping and training her forces. PNS Ghazi was the first sub in SA, as INS Vikrant was the first aircraft Carrier. M47 and M48 Pattons were modern tanks but proper reccee and study was not done before their employment. F-86 Sabres were Korean War veterans. With Air-to-Air Sidewinders they were the best aircraft in the war, although PAF also had a squadron of F-104 Shooting Stars. F-104s were among the most advanced flying anywhere those days. PAF had kept them in reserve and for CAP sorties over Islamabad.
    2. I have not heard of any Pak leader claiming they would reach Delhi in 24 hrs. However, IA Chief Chaudhuri had boasted that he would sip whiskey in Lahore Gymkhana in the evening.
    3. Again I have not heard of any Sino-Pak project of invading India in 1963 when relations between the two nations had just started warming up. However, in the wake of the Chinese onslaught in 1962, Ayub had proposed a joint deference pact to Nehru. This was carried by all media prominently. However, Nehru had rejected this summarily.
     
  7. bose

    bose Senior Member Senior Member

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    My point is that Pakistan then in 60's had the better equipment and trainings available and were well prepared for the show down with India... while Indian leaders then were busy with the NAM and panchasheel bullshit until they realized it in 1962 debacle with China... then it has already burnt its fingers and lost territories to China...

    Leftist elites then forming the Indian leadership neglected the India military / defense capability until 1962 debacle... their suspicion for Indian military leadership is well know... India's First Chief of Air Force, Air Marshal Subroto Mukherjee was not in good terms with Nehru... Incidentally Mukherjee died in Tokyo 1960 and people do suspect foul play ...

    I have read somewhere [ I do not have the link at this point of time], it was General Musa iwho boasted of American Pattons and super confidence in beating Indian Army and reaching Delhi in 24 hours time ...

    What General Chaudhuri said was a throw back to the Pakistani's onslaught early in the war... Capturing Lahore was never a strategy then rather a diversionary tactic so that they pull back their troops from Kashmir to save Lahore... It was the East Bengal regiment [ If I am not wrong Ex President Zia ur Rahman was awarded for gallantry] that saved Lahore and its adjoining areas from total humiliation ... IA opening a new front was a master stroke...

    No country was in a position for long drawn war then... It was beyond anyone's capability to fight more than 30 days war leave alone holding a buildup city like Lahore...

    Ayub offer to Nehru was correct then in 1962... Nehru was then busy making political appointment to IA Chief's rather than on merit turning IA into a stooge of the political dispensation then... that was reflected in poor leadership in 1962 debacle...

    I have read somewhere [ I will try to get the link ] that Chinese Leader Chou En Lai then wanted to humiliate India further with a joint attack along with Pakistan in 1963 which Pakistanis then were not so eager then... Pakistanis did realize in 1965 that time has come humiliate India when its moral was down and they can do it itself...
     
  8. rockey 71

    rockey 71 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Senior Tigers, 1 E Bengal was deployed in Luliani, Lahrore. The Div Commander was Gen Hamid, later PA Chief in 1971. This Bn,commanded by Lieut Col ATK Huq, a Bengali officer, had won the most gallantry awards by any unit in this war. Maj Zia was a Coy Commander but the report that he had won a gallantry award here is not correct. The Bn brought back with them an IA PT-76 tank that it had captured. The tank is still displayed at the entrance to The E Bengal Regt Center, Chittagong.
     
  9. bose

    bose Senior Member Senior Member

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    On Col ATK Haq contribution I have never heard... but Maj Zia is very well know here as strong military mind...

    If Pakistan have not started 1965 who knows most of the problems in the regions may have been resolved... prior 1965 there was no visa for travel between India and Pakistan, there were ferry and rail service between the two countries...
     
  10. rockey 71

    rockey 71 Senior Member Senior Member

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    1.ATK Huq was an outstanding officer of the Regt. He got posted to command the Senior Tigers on promotion after serving in PMA as the Term Commander of 29th PMA. Till recent years that Course produced the highest number of generals for PA. Musharraf is from that Course. So was Shabbir Sharif, elder brother of the current PA Chief and recipient of Nishan-i Haider in '71. Huq was next posted as DA at Yangon where he expired unfortunately pre-'71.
    2. Conflicts in SA will not end till:
    a. Kashmir issue is resolved amicably.
    b. India openly accepts The Two Nation Theory which means that the Muslims by themselves are a nation separate from the rest.
    3. The mindless slaughter in SA will continue, and peace and prosperity will evade the SA peoples till these issues are resolved. On the other hand, the Shaytan who had manipulated the Divide will keep peddling arms to both/all.
     
  11. bose

    bose Senior Member Senior Member

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    very unfortunate...

    The fate of Kashmir is settled now... whatever little chance of an amicable settlement during Nehru time in early 60's was lost with 1965 war...

    "Amicable" has different meaning for different people...

    best possible solution, I can think off from my POV is to accept the LoC as IB and give the local Kashmiris free to move across the two Kashmir without travel documents ...

    India agreed to two the nation theory where all people of all religion can stay in peace... at the same time one can not divide each and every village and Mohallas between Muslims and non Muslims... It is not possible...

    Two nation theory represented by Pakistan is a sick ideology where non Muslims are prosecuted and treated un fairly...

    As far as I know Islam does not preach the concept of nationhood... Why is Muslims divided among themselves ? a Shia can not live along side with a Sunni Muslims...

    We have to look at the Shaytan within ourselves... Why do we kill each other... for what ?
     
  12. rockey 71

    rockey 71 Senior Member Senior Member

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    We, BD, are also a fruit of The Two Nation Theory. This is a nation of predominantly Bengali Muslims where other races or faiths are not discriminated against - which is a Bengali heritage.
     
  13. bose

    bose Senior Member Senior Member

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    Bangladesh is not an Islamic country ... rather a soft Muslim country... heritage of Abbasuddin & Nazrul [ although he is in not from East Bengal] is very different than two nation theory... although there is all out effort now days to break basic tolerant value system killing those who criticize ones belief...
     
  14. rockey 71

    rockey 71 Senior Member Senior Member

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    We are a Muslim dominated nation, not Islamic. We were not absorbed into India like W Bengal because of The Two Nation Theory which was promoted and championed by Bengali Muslims. There is no effort to break the tolerant nature of our culture - although this seems to be increasingly under attack in our neighborhood.
     
  15. bose

    bose Senior Member Senior Member

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    Two nation theory has different meaning in India... that will be different debating point which is out of context of current thread... let one be happy with its own interpretation ...

    We from West Bengal are very proud to be on the frontlines to make sacrifice for MOTHER INDIA ... Bengalis are very nationalistic and proud Indians... A Bengali will say "West Bengal" is INDIA... a Punjabi will say PUNJAB is INDIA ... a Gujarati will say GUJARAT is INDIA...for us NATIONHOOD is PARAMOUNT and above all... everything else is secondary... even religion comes second...

    Will it be possible for IRANIANS to live side by side with SAUDIS or MALAY in same country ? Indians have done it for 1000 years... and continues it now...

    One of my wish in my morning prayers before I start the day is if I have to born again it must be in MOTHER INDIA...

    There is a concerted effort now in Bangladesh to turn to extremism ... no doubt about it... but it is also true that there is a big constituency within Bangladesh that will fight extremist out is every street and mohallas...

    What surprises me is to see even the peace loving Buddhists in Sri Lanka are also turning against Muslims...
     
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  16. rockey 71

    rockey 71 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Reference to the Two Nation Theory has become relevant here. If there was no Two Nation Theory and we in BD subscribed to pure Bengali nationalism, then today W Bengal must join us to carry that forward.
     
  17. Yumdoot

    Yumdoot Regular Member

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    Normally West Bengal would be more than happy to join you alongwith the Rest of India too :devil:. We can name it United States of South Asia if you like :p.

    Unfortunately you have too many islamists among you and that means trouble for everybody. Just look around yourself :biggrin2:.
     
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  18. rockey 71

    rockey 71 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Yes, around us there are insurgencies, killings, massacres, communal riots, etc. We, however, are an island of peace. And being Muslims we are Islamists - whatever you mean by that.
     
  19. Shadow

    Shadow Regular Member

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    United States of South Asia.LOL :rofl:
     
  20. bose

    bose Senior Member Senior Member

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    Mujib a hardcore Muslim League supporter in 40's got hard time from the same country Pakistan for which Mujib took a arduous cycle ride from Kolkata to Delhi for support of two nation theory in 45 if I am not wrong...

    Two Nation did one thing very well... it broke the backbone of two states Punjab & Bengal...
     

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