11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 injured

[hit&run]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

You need to get yourself educated about brahmins. Who were Dron & krip? ever heard of Tyagis, Gaurs, Bhumihaars? Who are they and what do they do as brahmins? Who took a pledge from them to give up Dakshshina and to become professional warriors?

Being a brahmin myself I can bet I know every thing about brahmins. When a person picks up a weapons and learns how to use it, is a warrior. He can be from any cast. There is no scientific reasoning that anyone coming down from lineage of Bharadwajs (for example) will be a warrior.

 

[Singh]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Being a Brahmin, I hold Brahmins solely responsible for the rot of Hindu society. They being the learned, fooled people, distorted the Vedas, forced people to accept practices which were against the very basics of Vedas to strengthen their hold over the uneducated classes. They changed Karma based system of society to varna based system and also made it subject to birth of a child.
if Brahmins are just 6% of indian society today inspite of being protected thru the ages by kings, it for their own fault. I will never defend Brahmins for their acts which has left Hindu society divided forever and no solution to the caste system which they created in place of Karma system. Brahmins have done more damage to India than any muslim invader till date. Muslims cud get in only bcoz of the caste system. Imagine nearly 50% of the population not even allowed to defend their own country or religion.
by Brahmin, I mean the priest class of brahmins and not the warrior class of Brahmins.
I spare none, not even myself.

I am not an expert on Brahmins, Insofar as the Sikhs/Punjabis are concerned, you have been way off the mark on this thread.

 

[hit&run]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

My comment was on this



It would not be a truism to club Punjabis and their sub divisions and the different categories of Sikhs as a monolithic whole.

They are diverse and each with its singular ethos and psyche ( call it bigotry if you wish as you call it), even if it appears as minor.

I was telling Decklander to be more forth coming than hiding behind word Punjabi when ridiculing Sikhs.

The kind of expressions he has thrown against all communities during this discourse following an opening generalized remark against Sikhs/Punjabi tells a lot about his propensity of playing safe.

The word bigotry fits to followers of every religion be Hindu, Sikh or Muslim, Without the dose of bigotry or feeling of superiority I see no religion proliferating or able to endorse itself amongst likewise or outsiders.

 

[Singh]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

1999, kargil was a failure of senior officers of the IA and the situation was saved by the heroism of Junior officers. The rut in IA started way back in mid 80s with third pay commission. We no longer get candidates from well to do respected families who joined armed forces for the honour and not money. Now we have problems even between the NDA cadets who are children of officers and those who are children of JCOs.

After partition, the children of punjabi refugees grew up and joined forces in large numbers sometime in mid sixties. These guys grew up to be flag ranks in late 90s and they brought with them the mentality of looters. from ketchup col to booze brigadiers to those asking for Blue labels were nearly all punjabis.

Two disparate, and contradictory points.

First you claim that since 80s Candidates are not from well to do families and join only for money and not honour. and Secondly you claim that from the 60s the Punjabi "Refugees" kids joined the army who are nothing but looters.
So only from 48-60 Honourable men joined, from the 60s to the 80s Army officers have been looters and indigent ?
Not bad for an Army with such shitty officers.

If the Punjabi "Refugees" were indeed looters, how come they are much richer than an average Indian ? Is it by looting or by their enterprise ?

Don't forget at the time of Partition, they controlled almost three quarters of the wealth in West Punjab despite being about a third in numbers, and today again they are much richer than an average Pakistani Punjabi.

One of the thread on DFI has clearly brought out that punjabis never fought a war in their history. they always surrendered to the invaders meekly. The first round of battle used to be on Khyber and next Panipat. Nothing in Punjab. The short period of dominance of Punjabis in mid 18th century was due to the third battle of panipat which resulted in complete destruction of Afgan forces even after winning the battle, to such an extent that they never recovered from it.

Assuming Punjabis centuries back used to give up meekly as indeed did all of India what does it prove ?

Centuries back women used to commit Sati , children used to be married, people practiced untouchability and invaders used to destroy Hindu temples. These are all aberrations.

If Maurya Dynasty and Gupta Dynasty were Biharis how does it change the present lot of Biharis ?

And pls have a look at the roll of dishonour of IA+IAF+IN, Punjabis have defeated evryone in that. Only place where they have been victorious.

Well at least the non Punjabi officers saved the day.

two Punjabi Generals, JJ & Kapoor together have done more damage to IA than anyone else in the history of IA. They have tried to make IA same as PA, punjabian dee baap kee jaagir.

If Punjabis had made IA their baap kee jaagir a la PA, all Punjabis would've had corner facing plot in Defence Enclaves across India's big cities.

 

[Singh]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

As a Delhiwallas you are just jealous of the Pendu Punjabis (as you so quaintly call them), Ludhianvis and Chandigarhites who are giving a run for your money and about to surpass you in all departments!

Painndu Punjabis are culturally very different from Urban Punjabis. In any case, I envy their ability to speak chaste Punjabi. Chandigarh is a lot more gentrified, Ludhiana is way too flashy and dirty, and Delhi is turning into a very cosmopolitan city.

 

[Ray]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

First you claim that since 80s Candidates are not from well to do families and join only for money and not honour. and Secondly you claim that from the 60s the Punjabi "Refugees" kids joined the army who are nothing but looters.
So only from 48-60 Honourable men joined, from the 60s to the 80s Army officers have been looters and indigent ?
Not bad for an Army with such shitty officers.

The actual answer lies here:

The reason is not hard to find. After 1962, the attitude changed. High morality and the strength of character gave way to the 'world ways' i.e anything does so long it meets one's aim and desire!

Emergency Commission brought in all sorts of people to become officers. People, who were already employed, but in lowly paid jobs, found the Army officer's rank a God given chance to improve the status and give a new meaning to life. Many were of the clerk and petty officials in the Govt status and equivalent (like bank clerks). They were savvy about the 'ways' of life in the Civvy Street, double dealing, bribes and immorality of all kind.

They were also aware that since they were older in age, their prospects to rise were limited to the extent age restrictions permitted. And so it laid the foundations to the morass that we notice these days to include misplaced ambitions, stats, non stats, graft, skulduggery, diluting of norms and so on.

The foundation for double standards (that you talk about) lies at the doorstep of post 1962, where those who knew that they had very little scope to rise because of age, used all forms 'out of the book' to ensure that they rise to the highest rank that age permitted them, so that their relatives and friends would acknowledge that a clerk had done well in life and had acquitted the 'respectability' to be called an 'Officer Sahab'.

What was the rpercussion that had an adverse effect of these type of "Officer Sahabs"?

Their juniors, irrespective of their Entries, realised that this wheeling dealing immorality was the name of the game!

And so the rot got further and further to the morass that we see today!

 

[Ray]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Painndu Punjabis are culturally very different from Urban Punjabis. In any case, I envy their ability to speak chaste Punjabi. .

Actually, I find it more easy on the ear and comprehension than the chewy anglicised Punjabi that is spoken by the noveau riche of Delhi.

Have you heard Sheila Dixie speak in Hindi?

She makes it sound some type of bastardised English!

Total pretensions.

One must be true to one's roots.

 

[Singh]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

The actual answer lies here:

So it has nothing to do with Punjabis (specifically "Refugees"). British Indian Army was full of Punjabis, and it did alright.
And a large number if not a majority of officers are Punjabis (and have been since Independence)

 

[Singh]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Actually, I find it more easy on the ear and comprehension than the chewy anglicised Punjabi that is spoken by the noveau riche of Delhi.

Have you heard Sheila Dixie speak in Hindi?

She makes it sound some type of bastardised English!

Total pretensions.

One must be true to one's roots.

Tavleen Singh calls it educated Subcontinental accent.

I have trouble understanding thet Punjabi, and I am most comfortable in either Hindi or English.

 

[angeldude13]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Being a Brahmin, I hold Brahmins solely responsible for the rot of Hindu society. They being the learned, fooled people, distorted the Vedas, forced people to accept practices which were against the very basics of Vedas to strengthen their hold over the uneducated classes. They changed Karma based system of society to varna based system and also made it subject to birth of a child.
if Brahmins are just 6% of indian society today inspite of being protected thru the ages by kings, it for their own fault. I will never defend Brahmins for their acts which has left Hindu society divided forever and no solution to the caste system which they created in place of Karma system. Brahmins have done more damage to India than any muslim invader till date. Muslims cud get in only bcoz of the caste system. Imagine nearly 50% of the population not even allowed to defend their own country or religion.
by Brahmin, I mean the priest class of brahmins and not the warrior class of Brahmins.
I spare none, not even myself.

It's good to see a brahman accepting the fact that brahmins distorted Sanatana dharma for there own benifits.
BTW warrior brahmin is a new thing to me.
Are you intermixing the khatriyas and brahmins.
Many khatriyas have gotras like bhardwaj,vatsa and tyagi because of the fact that there gurus were bhardwaj or vatsa but never heard of such things as warrior brahman clans.
I mean they use to fight but i don't know nothing about a single brahman king in history.

 

[sob]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

I have trouble understanding the Punjabi my relatives from Pakistan speak. Maybe I get 40% of what they speak.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

So the thread starts with a matter of loss of military discipline and then gets way off track with a discussion about religion and ethnicity. It's really not a good thing.

 

[angeldude13]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

So it has nothing to do with Punjabis (specifically "Refugees"). British Indian Army was full of Punjabis, and it did alright.

Refugee punjabis are different.
I have lots of punjabi friends from ludhiana and amritsar who dislike them refugee punjabis and call them jhangees.
They are totally different.They even do cousine marriage.
Also they are quickwitted and backstabbers(this is from my own experience)

 

[kseeker]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

I mean they use to fight but i don't know nothing about a single brahman king in history.

This one may help

Kota Venkata Chelam - Ancient Indian History: Kings in Taranga VI. - Brahmin Kings.

Also, http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_are_brahmin_kings

 

[angeldude13]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

So the thread starts with a matter of loss of military discipline and then gets way off track with a discussion about religion and ethnicity. It's really not a good thing.

Why do you think India was enslaved for so many years???

 

[angeldude13]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

This one may help

Kota Venkata Chelam - Ancient Indian History: Kings in Taranga VI. - Brahmin Kings.

It's a blog bro.
give me some credible source.
Blogs are not a trustable source

 

[Ray]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Since I enjoy learning of people, I was pleasantly informed by one of my informed Sikh friend that there is no one Sikh dialect and one cannot club all the dialects in one basket.

I had asked him as to why there are those who spoke a softer and more polite form of Punjabi. He told me that they were the Rawalpindi chaps and that is the way they speak in Pindi. It had a lilting type of Punjabi that sounded polite, while those of rural Punjab appeared a bit rough.

He told me of the following, which I saved in my archives.

He told me of the following:

In India, the major dialects of Punjabi are Majhi, Doabi, Malwai, and Powadhi. In Pakistan, they are Pothohari, Lahndi, and Multani. Majhi is the standard in both countries.

Majhi
The Majhi is Punjabi's prestige dialect because it is standard of written Punjabi. It is spoken in the heart of Punjab in historical region of Majha which spans the Lahore, Sheikhupura, Kasur, Okara, Nankana Sahib, Faisalabad, Gujranwala, Wazirabad, Sialkot, Narowal, Gujrat, Pakpattan, Hafizabad, Mandi Bahauddin districts of Pakistan's Punjab Province and also in major cities of Pakistani Punjab.

In India Amritsar, Tarn Taran Sahib, and Gurdaspur Districts of the State of Punjab and sizable population also in major cities of the States of Punjab, Haryana, Utherchal Pradesh, Delhi and Mumbai India.

Shahpuri
Shah Puri dialect is mostly spoken in Pakistani Punjab. It is one of the oldest dialect of the Punjabi language spoken in Sargodh Division of Pakistani Punjab. Its name is derived from former Shahpur District (now Shahpur Tehsil, being part of Sargodha District). It can be described as a mixture of Majhi, Pothohari and Thalochi dialects. Shahpurias in the Khushab area speak this dialect in a more Thalochi tone while those in southern parts of its distribution have color of Jhangochi on their language. It is spoken throughout a widespread area, spoken in Sargodha and Khushab Districts and also spoken in neighbouring Mianwali and Bhakkar Districts. It is mainly spoken on western end of Sindh River to Chennab river crossing Jehlam river. The Shahpuri dialect of Punjabi has several aspects that set it apart from other Punjabi variants.

Jhangochi/Changvi
Jhangochi dialect is oldest and most idiosyncratic dialect of the Punjabi. It is spoken in Pakistani Punjab throughout a widespread area, starting from Khanewal and Jhang at both ends of Ravi and Chenab to Hafizabad district. This entire area has almost the same traditions, customs and culture. The Jhangochi dialect of Punjabi has several aspects that set it apart from other Punjabi variants. This area has a great culture and heritage, especially literary heritage, as it is credited with the creation of the famous epic romance stories of Heer Ranjha and Mirza Sahiba.

Jangli/Rachnavi
Jaangli is a dialect of former nomad tribes of areas whose names are often suffixed with 'Bar' derived from jungle bar before irrigation system arrived in the start of the 20th century, for example, Sandal Bar, Kirana Bar, Neeli Bar, Ganji Bar. Former Layllpur and western half of Montgomary district used to speak this dialect. Currently area includes Faisalabad, Chiniot, Sahiwal, Toba Tek Singh districts in Pakistani Punjab. Rachnavi is alternate names of this dialect.

Malwai
It is spoken in the eastern part of Indian Punjab and also in Bahawalnagar and Vehari districts of Pakistan. Main areas are Ludhiana, Ambala, Bathinda, Ganganagar, Malerkotla, Fazilka, Ferozepur. Malwa is the southern and central part of present day Indian Punjab. It also includes the Punjabi speaking northern areas of Haryana, viz. Ambala, Hissar, Sirsa, Kurukshetra etc. Not to be confused with the Malvi language, which shares its name.

Doabi
Doabi is spoken in both the Indian Punjab as well as parts of Pakistan Punjab owing to post-1947 migration of Muslim populace from East Punjab. The word "Do Aabi" means "the land between two rivers" and this dialect was historically spoken between the rivers of the Beas and the Sutlej in the region called Doaba. Regions it is presently spoken includes the Jalandhar and Kapurthala districts in Indian Punjab, specifically in the areas known as the Dona and Manjki, as well as the Toba Tek Singh and Faisalabad districts in Pakistan Punjab where the dialect is known as Faisalabadi Punjabi.

Pwadhi
Powadh or Puadh or Powadha is a region of Punjab and parts of Haryana between the Satluj and Ghaggar rivers. The part lying south, south-east and east of Rupnagar adjacent to Ambala District (Haryana) is Powadhi. The Powadh extends from that part of the Rupnagar District which lies near Satluj to beyond the Ghaggar river in the east up to Kala Amb, which is at the border of the states of Himachal pradesh and Haryana. Parts of Fatehgarh Sahib district, and parts of Patiala districts like Rajpura are also part of Powadh. The language is spoken over a large area in present Punjab as well as Haryana. In Punjab, Kharar, Kurali, Ropar, Nurpurbedi, Morinda, Pail, Rajpura and Samrala are the areas where the Puadhi is spoken and the dialect area also includes Pinjore, Kalka, Ismailabad, Pehowa to Bangar area in Fatehabad district.

Pothohari/Panjistani or Potwari-Mirpuri
Spoken in north Pakistani Punjab and Azad Kashmir. The area where it is spoken extends in the north from Muzaffarabad to as far south as Jhelum, Gujar Khan ,Rawat and Rawalpindi, Murree Hills north of Rawalpindi, and east to Bhimber and Rawalakot. Chibhali and Dhundi-Kairali dialects may be related. It is in a dialect chain with Majhi and Hindko dialects of Punjabi.

Multani
It is spoken in Multan and Lodhran districts of Pakistan Punjab. It had been historically classified as a dialect of Punjabi. In the 1920s Garrison in his Linguist Survey of India classified into Southern cluster of Lahnda (Western Punjabi). In 1964 Multani was termed as Saraiki which is claimed as a separate language.

Kohati/Peshaweri/Hindko
These similar dialects are spoken in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa Province of Pakistan in the districts of Peshawar, Nowshera, Kohat, Mansehra, Abbottabad, Haripur and the lower half of the Neelum District of Azad Kashmir. They had been historically classified as dialects of Punjabi. In the 1920s, Garrison in his Linguist Survey of India classified them within the Western cluster of Lahnda (Western Punjabi). The debate over Hindko as a separate language or dialect of Punjabi is an issue which could not be resolved.

Derawali
It is mostly spoken in Rajanpur, Dera Ghazi Khan districts in Pakistani Punjab. It is also recently classified as Saraiki, which is considered a separate language by many linguists.

Ghebi
This dialect is quite similar to the Potowari dialect, but differs slightly, for example in the past tense, in which it uses (ahay+prefix) for 'was'. For example "Mea ahayaan" means "I was". It also uses "Vinjna" instead of "jaana" or "gchna" for "going". It is mostly spoken in Fateh Jang Tehsil and Pindi Gheb Tehsil in Pakistani Punjab. The Awaankari dialect spoken in Mianwali is also very close to Ghebi.

Riasti
Also known as Bhawalpuri/Choolistani; spoken in Bahawalpur, Lodhran and Rahim Yar Khan districts of Punjab (Pakistan). Its name is derived from Riast (State) of Bahawalpur. It is a mix of Rajasthani, Punjabi and Multani(Saraiki).It is spoken throughout a widespread area on the banks of river Sutlej and Choolistan desert.It is also recently classified as Saraiki dialect, but Saraiki as a separate language or dialect of Punjabi is an issue which could not be resolved to date because of contrasting views of Local linguists.

Chhachi
It is one of dialect spoken in Pakistani Punjab which is a mixture of Potowari, Hindko dialects of Punjabi.Its name is derived form Chach region in Attock District of Pakistani Punjab where chhachi clan which is sub section of the Kohli Khokhran clan. It is mainly spoken in Attock District, Parts of Hazara Division and adjacent araes of Pakistani Punjab and Khyber Pakhtunkha.

Jandali
Jandali is a mixture of Potowari, Chachi (Hindko sub dialect) and Thalochi dialects. It is also called Rohi. It is mostly spoken in Jand Tehsil and Mianwali district in Pakistani Punjab.

Thalochi/Thali
Spoken in Thal Desert of Pakistani Punjab. Its name is derived from Thal Desert. This dialect has great proximity with Shah puri Dialect of Punjabi Language spoken in Sargodha and Khaushab Districts. It is spoken throughout a widespread area, starting from Bhakkar, Layyah to Muzzaffargarh Districts on eastern end of Sindh River In Punjab Province of Pakistan. It is also spoken on western end of Sindh River from Bannu, Tank runs down to Dera Ismail Khan in KPK Province of Pakistan.

Dhani
Spoken in parts of Rawalpindi Division (Pothohar) of Pakistani Punjab.[3] Its name is derived from Dhan valley where its spoken. It is spoken in Chakwal, parts of Jehlam Distr

 

[Singh]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Refugee punjabis are different.
I have lots of punjabi friends from ludhiana and amritsar who dislike them refugee punjabis and call them jhangees.
They are totally different.They even do cousine marriage.
Also they are quickwitted and backstabbers(this is from my own experience)

A significant number of middle class Ludhianvis and Amritsaris are themselves refugees.

Jhangis are those who speak Jhangi (Multani/Seraiki). They are often ridiculed and caricatured by Punjabis esp the older generation.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Why do you think India was enslaved for so many years???

Your question is yet another distraction from the issue (gross violation of discipline in an IA unit) raised by the original post.

If you want to kvetch about "enslavement" there must be at least hundreds of existing threads to join in.

 

[Ray]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

So the thread starts with a matter of loss of military discipline and then gets way off track with a discussion about religion and ethnicity. It's really not a good thing.

I presume that is because none is any wiser and this being an unit of the Chief, the reasons must have been kept under the wraps.

Even the reasons why the other fracas in the two Armoured Regt and the Arty Regt is under wrap.

Though what one learns of the Arty fracas was that they had thought they were of the Mughal times wherein their families could travel around while they were at professional work. It was something that no old timer can even think can be done! It broke all rules that the Arty themselves lay down.