11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 injured

[Decklander]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Let's leave it.

The politicians have corrupted the innards of the military, and the 'cat's whiskers' are making hay while the sun shines!

Though I don't know why Kapil Vij was sacked.

I know him personally and he is a good sort.

Sir, I agree that Lt. Gen Vij was a gallant officer who commanded the strike corp during that time. George Fernandes removed him for moving his tanks to just within 3Kms of the border. he did not show guts like Adm Vishnu Bhagwat to ask GOI what sin did he commit by moving his tanks close to border when he was deployed for war.
Compare the conduct of this officer with that of Timmy, Cariappa and Manekshaw. If you bend, people will ride you. That is the reason for the rot in Indian armed forces. Officers have started licking the boots of JS in MOD for promotions and do not have guts to ask umcomfortable questions to political masters. Imagine what will happen if the three Chiefs threaten to resign for lack of weapons? This govt will be on its knees.

 

[Ray]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Any idea why the Sikh LI chaps clashed with the officers?

 

[TrueSpirit]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

1999, kargil was a failure of senior officers of the IA and the situation was saved by the heroism of Junior officers. The rut in IA started way back in mid 80s with third pay commission. We no longer get candidates from well to do respected families who joined armed forces for the honour and not money. Now we have problems even between the NDA cadets who are children of officers and those who are children of JCOs.
After partition, the children of punjabi refugees grew up and joined forces in large numbers sometime in mid sixties. These guys grew up to be flag ranks in late 90s and they brought with them the mentality of looters. from ketchup col to booze brigadiers to those asking for Blue labels were nearly all punjabis.
One of the thread on DFI has clearly brought out that punjabis never fought a war in their history. they always surrendered to the invaders meekly. The first round of battle used to be on Khyber and next Panipat. Nothing in Punjab. The short period of dominance of Punjabis in mid 18th century was due to the third battle of panipat which resulted in complete destruction of Afgan forces even after winning the battle, to such an extent that they never recovered from it. And pls have a look at the roll of dishonour of IA+IAF+IN, Punjabis have defeated evryone in that. Only place where they have been victorious.
two Punjabi Generals, JJ & Kapoor together have done more damage to IA than anyone else in the history of IA. They have tried to make IA same as PA, punjabian dee baap kee jaagir.

Even I had discerned this trend some time back & posted something to this effect, only to receive warning from one moderator that I am vilifying an entire community unjustly.

Anyway, why go far in past; even if one reckons the last 4 Army chiefs during UPA regimes- the trend is for all to see. Except for Gen.VK Singh (a non-Punjabi) who is considered to be an upright, honest gentlemen (by serving IA officers), irrespective of propaganda directed against him, remaining 3 IA chief's are widely (if not unanimously) alleged by serving Army officers (again), to be UPA stooges & target of several unsavory insinuations.

 

[Ray]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Even I had discerned this trend some time back & posted something to this effect, only to receive warning from one moderator that I am vilifying an entire community unjustly.

Anyway, why go far in past; even if one reckons the last 4 Army chiefs during UPA regimes- the trend is for all to see. Except for Gen.VK Singh (a non-Punjabi) who is considered to be an upright, honest gentlemen (by serving IA officers), irrespective of propaganda directed against him, remaining 3 IA chief's are widely (if not unanimously) alleged by serving Army officers (again), to be UPA stooges & target of several unsavory insinuations.

Let is leave it at that.

Please!

There are many reasons for what is happening.

It is just not one issue.

But why was this clash over such a mundane issue as Inter Company Boxing?!

Any idea?

 

[TrueSpirit]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

IN is saved from the Punjabis for the simple reason that firstly it needs highly educated technical manpower and secondly, Punjabis don't like sea as much. To get good education, you need to be from a well to do family if you are not a guy who grew up on quotas. The quota varieties, if well educated go for other meaty jobs like IAS/IPS/PCS or clerical jobs where you get upar ka income instead of joining Armed forces. So the majority of officers in IN are from well to do families for whom money alone is not the criteria for choosing armed forces as a carear option.
I have studied in BPS Pilani, Sainik School-Chittorgarh and NPS Delhi and I can say that after leaving SS-Chittsberg, When I joined NPS delhi, I was shocked to see the attitude of the huge Punjabi community in Delhi in those days.

Again, much to my dislike, I find your observation to be on-the-mark. Likes of Admiral Nanda's & the IN officer (involved in Gorkshkov) who was honeytrapped in Russia (who has not seen his smiling pic) further buttress your claim.

 

[Decklander]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Any idea why the Sikh LI chaps clashed with the officers?

Sir, after boxing bouts when have the sailors or the jawans not fought eachother. It was a kind of ritual in Navy. The loosers wud make comments and the winners will retaliate. We all know how charged up the envoirnment is during boxing bouts in intraship, Intership, intracommand championships. same is true about IA. The losing company commander got carried away and used abusive language, now you can well imagine what must be abusive for jawans of Sikh LI who normally use highly abusive lingo. The jawan who had lost was already feeling cheated by the refree and he gave it back to the officer. Boxing main toh yeh hota rahta hai sir. Media is making ado about nothing. Only thing is that Officer shud have been cautious and probably handled it in a better manner.

 

[Ray]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Sir, after boxing bouts when have the sailors or the jawans not fought eachother. It was a kind of ritual in Navy. The loosers wud make comments and the winners will retaliate. We all know how charged up the envoirnment is during boxing bouts in intraship, Intership, intracommand championships. same is true about IA. The losing company commander got carried away and used abusive language, now you can well imagine what must be abusive for jawans of Sikh LI who normally use highly abusive lingo. The jawan who had lost was already feeling cheated by the refree and he gave it back to the officer. Boxing main toh yeh hota rahta hai sir. Media is making ado about nothing. Only thing is that Officer shud have been cautious and probably handled it in a better manner.

Well that is new to me.

But where is the cause to rough up officers and the Offg CO?

 

[TrueSpirit]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

You might find this interesting: Battle of Saragarhi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1) 1999, kargil was a failure of senior officers of the IA and the situation was saved by the heroism of Junior officers.

2) The rut in IA started way back in mid 80s with third pay commission.

3) We no longer get candidates from well to do respected families who joined armed forces for the honour and not money. Now we have problems even between the NDA cadets who are children of officers and those who are children of JCOs.

@pmaitra The above 3 points made by Decklander Sir are kosher, undiluted truth. Anyone with slightest interest in Indian Armed Forces knows it for a fact. Absolutely futile trying to contest something as plenary as this.

 

[TrueSpirit]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

History indicates that most of the marauders who came into India came from the areas where these people lived. Hence, they learned the art of 'survival of the fittest'. I presume this ethos became genetically a signature of the psychology.

As expected, you have nailed it again, Sir. Hats-off

 

[Ray]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

As expected, you have nailed it again, Sir. Hats-off

I like to analyse issues.

Superficiality, dogmas and clichés do not appeal to me.

But then, it does not mean I am right!

I would like to contest this contention - 1) 1999, kargil was a failure of senior officers of the IA and the situation was saved by the heroism of Junior officers. . You may start a thread.

I am sure you do not expect the General to lead the attack. After all, if he dies, then the whole plan dies since there is no to oversee the battle. coordinate the battle, and manoeuvre the resources to the right place when needed, since he alone has the authority to order it!

The two other issues, I ave not given a thought to.

 

[Decklander]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Well that is new to me.

But where is the cause to rough up officers and the Offg CO?

Sir, To me it does not seem free for all kind of fight. It seems that Officers got hurt while separating the jawans.
As I had told you I was boxing blue in NDA infact double blue as I had Blue in football also for captaining NDA team. Delta, Echo and Lima sqns were considered to produce best boxers of NDA and we used to have inter sqn fights after boxing bouts in NDA. After that the sqns involved were punished the whole night by none other than NDA Adjutant himself. But we did it as it developed killer instinct and comaradeire. As Batty in NDA, you must have also seen it happen.

 

[Ray]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Sir, To me it does not seem free for all kind of fight. It seems that Officers got hurt while separating the jawans.
As I had told you I was boxing blue in NDA infact double blue as I had Blue in football also for captaining NDA team. Delta, Echo and Lima sqns were considered to produce best boxers of NDA and we used to have inter sqn fights after boxing bouts in NDA. After that the sqns involved were punished the whole night by none other than NDA Adjutant himself. But we did it as it developed killer instinct and comaradeire. As Batty in NDA, you must have also seen it happen.

My tenure in the NDA was truncated.

As a Bat Com, my aim was to bring in the Honour Code that has always spearheaded my zeal to serve.

 

[Decklander]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

I like to analyse issues.

Superficiality, dogmas and clichés do not appeal to me.

But then, it does not mean I am right!

I would like to contest this contention - 1) 1999, kargil was a failure of senior officers of the IA and the situation was saved by the heroism of Junior officers. . You may start a thread.

I am sure you do not expect the General to lead the attack. After all, if he dies, then the whole plan dies since there is no to oversee the battle. coordinate the battle, and manoeuvre the resources to the right place when needed, since he alone has the authority to order it!

The two other issues, I ave not given a thought to.

Sir why I have stated that Kargil was a failure of our senior officers is bcoz, even after it was known that PA has infiltrated a large area and that IA was facing a huge task, they took time to inform the truth to the civil leadership. The initial action of IA Generals was to somehow keep it under lids and try and do something to evict these intruders as it was clearly a failure of correct appriciation of situation not only in terms of magnitude but in terms of remedial measures and such decisions are taken at HQ level(Army Commander level) and not at Brigade or Batallion levels. I am a naval guy, telling you all this is like lighting a candle to sun.
The IAF also got a jolt when the Canbera which they sent for recce got hit by Anza missile while descending over Leh. It was then that they made a presentation to CCS and the orders to deploy IAF were taken alongwith mobilisation of IN for an all out war shud the need arises. If you look at the first 15 days of ops, IA had sent raiding parties even without arty support and we took majority of casualties in those days. Once Arty and IAF joined the scene, the situation turned in our favour. gen Badhwar was calling it a small intrusion by just 40-45 jihaadies who he wud have evicted in 48hrs. What a colossol mistake.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Media >> S E N S U A L I S A T I O N ..

Boxing Match >> There are no officers or jawan called in a Ring !! Its one opponent vs other ..

There must be some local media invited there, He must have reported this in his news as fight get out of hand in an Army Boxing and Mainstream paid media took it as an excuse to make a bad image of Army as it already doing in many fronts ..

I agree, Things should have been in control but in such areas things get out of hands sometimes

 

[Decklander]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Media >> S E N S U A L I S A T I O N ..

Boxing Match >> There are no officers or jawan called in a Ring !! Its one opponent vs other ..

There must be some local media invited there, He must have reported this in his news as fight get out of hand in an Army Boxing and Mainstream paid media took it as an excuse to make a bad image of Army as it already doing in many fronts ..

I agree, Things should have been in control but in such areas things get out of hands sometimes

Boxing is a game but a very funny game which tests the ultimate ability of a man. It is a game in which you break faces and get your face broken for sport. This does not have doubles. It is just you vs other. You have to keep your cool and mind in place while being hit to be killed or knocked out. AND you have to remember & plan your moves under such a situation to counter attack your opponent. Your legs, arms and brain is under extreme strain during boxing.

Lt. Tripathi of 10th Para SF who died in that ill fated assualt to capture Pirabhakaran in Jaffna in 1987/88 was from Hunter sqn NDA 68th course. He was the Boxing vice captain of NDA in fourth term itself. The best technical boxer tilldate of NDA. I was second termer. I had been boxing in Delhi in YMCA before I joined NDA and I suffered DNS(Left) as a result of the hits I got on my nose in boxing. I was given temp rejection in medicals for NDA and I had my nose operated to straighten it and cleared appeal medical in Ambala to join NDA.
When I joined NDA wing in Ghorpadi, Pune, I was forced to fight novices rounds with one of my coursemates. We had decided not to hit eachother and just play around. To our shock our PT officer who was an officer from branch commission(Soldier turned officer) understood it all and told us that if we did not fight properly, he will put on the boxing gloves and also ask the JCO Gurung ( Military medalist in Boxing national level) to do so and hammer us in the ring. My opponent got scared and he actually started hitting me hard. I asked him to cool it but he was so scared of being bashed by Gurung that he let it out on me. seeing no escape I got into my stride and with just two combinations, knocked out my opponent.
next was what??? The officer jumps into the ring with gloves on and asks me where have I done boxing and what level did I reach? I tried to fool him by stating that sir I am from civil background and have never boxed before. he hit me staright on my face. I did not respond. next he again tried and this time I dodged him. next was, If you have never boxed, why is your foot work so good?
Can you believe it he saw my footwork when I knocked out my coursemate in Novices and he came to know everything about my boxing abilities.

Anyway, I was forced to fight proper boxing bouts and a big jat sikh gentleman from PPS Nabha got it really bad from me in finals for calling me a timid brahmin who survived on the grants given by his forefathers.
In NDA, I landed up in Delta sqn or Dalda sqn as @Ray sir wud call it. We used to hang our medals on our fan blades when we entered main NDA from Ghorpadi for all seniotrs to see what we did in wing. I was straigh away in sqn boxing team and a 4th term cadet from SS kozikuttam was our boxing vice captain and Dilbagh Singh Dahiya who is now a MARCO from the second batch was our boxing captain. After the rape on boxers hill we used to return to the sqn and central lobby of the sqn was the boxing ring and everyday, we used to get beaten by sqn cadets to make us strong without the option of retaliating. We were allowed to dodge. After that used to be the fights with a higher wt cadet. NDA is the biggest mad house of the world. You don't know what you are doing? You don't have permission to ask questions why it is happenning and best is that even if you get the answers, you can't do anything about it.

I will now come back to Lt. Tripathi. Pls note that I have neither addressed him as late or martyr. Such brave men never die.
I have very strong bone structure which resulted in my weight being fixed 10% higher than the ht/wt standards of NDA. I was fit to fight in Welter wt but I used to drain my body fluids to get into lower Light welter wt which brought me in same ht category and reach ability as my opponents. I will tell you the next part shortly after a break.

 

[pkroyal]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Read my posts and you will realise why they are what they are.

But if you feel that you alone understand the Army and others don't you delude yourself.

You are merely looking at the Army from an ant'e eye view with limited experience.

One requires experience and knowledge from every level, to understand the broader picture.

For instance, what the Chief knows, maybe the Lt Gens don't.

Heard of the jawan's view of the progress of the Kargil war when asked by the excitedly breathless Barkha Dutt?

Now, only the gullible and ignorant will believe that the jawan's view was the last word of how the war was progressing and what is to be done!

Not only senior officers should set and example, but ALL officers.

Further, corruption and the promotion at all costs attitude is also dependant on family grooming.

Maharaja Bhawani Singh of Jaipur,, who was an Armoured Corps officer, raised 10 PARA Commando,

He was awarded India's second highest military honour, the Maha Vir Chakra, for his gallantry in the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971.

Having proved that he was not a mere soft Maharaja, but a real Rajput warrior, he hung up his boots in the rank of Brigadier in 1974.

He required no promotions to add to his glory and he required no ill gotten gains to refurbish his funds because he had a family reputation to live up to and guard from being sullied!

But a boy living in a cramped chawl, who becomes an officer and finds that officers are living in larger houses which are well appointed, he wants to reach that status quick time. That leads him to cut corners (if you know what I mean)!

As far as seeking a Bradley for you, seek and ye shall find.

Good reference about HH Jaipur, does it mean all Brig,s who hang their boots have his integrity.
Ant,s eye view etc, and yours again a lofty, preachy one. What earth shattering experience is required to air corrupt practices, by seniors or juniors alike. It takes immense guts and courage to swim against the tide and yet maintain a steady course. I recall two stone age CO,s 0ne 1965 commissioned and the other 1968, who had such double standards of sucking up to their seniors, for eg, scotch for the Cdr /GOC from offrs mess fund when they were invited for a unit party and rot gut cheap Indian whisky for other guests who did not matter as IO/ RO. I am told this is the practice which has percolated to modern day times as well. Good example of " atithi devo bhavah"(all guests are like God).[ this is what youngsters were taught, " one must know which side of the bread to butter up".

 

[Decklander]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

When I joined main NDA, I was up against this guy called Tripathi from hunter sqn. We both were from same wt group. We both won our fights by knockouts to reach finals. I was told by Dahiya to fight him and not get knocked out as that wud be a defeat for him. No one from my own sqn gave me any chance of winning against him. he was very very strong and very good at exploiting the loopholes in defences of the opponent. I watched all his fights and I came to know his biggest weakness. He had never faced a very hostile opponent. All his opponents used to go into defensive against him. I saw a game and victory by going into him without guard, complete madness and non stop hammerring. I cud take lot of punishment and that was my strength but will he be able to withstand my hammerring?
My bout with him was billed as the best which NDA cud see. Our Deputy Comandant Air Cmde Bhardwaj came down to watch it along with most officers with families as they wanted to see two madman kill eachother. The Science block was reverbrating with likes of,"Kill him, floor him, we want blood, Up Up deadly Daggers hard into them kill them all".
The fight started, before the deputy comandant cud take his seat, I had knocked out Tripathi. Fastest Knockout in the history of NDA. No one has walked thru Pashaan gate till date who can break my record. Cadet 16478 of Delta sqn.
In 21 seconds, I did not take guard, I launched myself into a murderous asault on him, he was completely taken aback as no one had ever done that to him. he forgot all his skills as he had to somehow save himself from the pounding that I gave him and I too got hit badly from him. I knocked him out by a repeat of three consecutive repetitions of combinations of undercut, hook and straight punch. I am a righty but my knockout punch makes me a south paw.
He was knocked out flat and he lost his breathing due to the hit I gave him on his phalanx. he was removed to command hospital in Pune, I was carried by the sqn on the shoulders to my cabin. For next seven days, I was Att-C unable to cough or walk or sleep on properly. My lips were punctured, my left eye had a cut, my nose was bleeding and my whole chest was like as have been run over by a tank. That was the hammering Tripathi gave me in those 21 seconds. More than 60 punches each were exchanged in those 21 seconds by us. If the fight had prolonged to another 10 seconds, I wud have been dead. He was so good.

 

[Decklander]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Ek baar usko zameen par toh aanay daytay, LTTE wud have known what that guy was all about.

 

[Singh]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

https://twitter.com/saikatd/status/388671035446263809
https://twitter.com/saikatd/status/388671175330525184
https://twitter.com/saikatd/status/388671493837553664
https://twitter.com/saikatd/status/388671665019682818
https://twitter.com/saikatd/status/388671823870566400
https://twitter.com/saikatd/status/388674216242868224
https://twitter.com/saikatd/status/388679952247164929

 

[Decklander]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

https://twitter.com/saikatd/status/388671035446263809
https://twitter.com/saikatd/status/388671175330525184
https://twitter.com/saikatd/status/388671493837553664
https://twitter.com/saikatd/status/388671665019682818
https://twitter.com/saikatd/status/388671823870566400
https://twitter.com/saikatd/status/388674216242868224
https://twitter.com/saikatd/status/388679952247164929

So it clearly proves my point of view. Timid soldiers refusing to fight that too from SikhLI. I always knew that Sikhs of India are overblown fighters. Good for nothing except self killings. Good for ceremonial duties and and best for licking the backsides of Goraas. In Delhi, Tis Hazaazi is named after the 30k sikh soldiers who were posted to Delhi by third rate sikh kings of Punjab to support British in keeping India under British rule.
Do you know why 1857 failed? Sikhs gave shelter to english under Maharaja of Patiala and who supported them. The englishmen were given shelter by that bastard who even took out guns from sutlej river and gave them to british to defeat the nationalists.