11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 injured

[Decklander]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

IN is saved from the Punjabis for the simple reason that firstly it needs highly educated technical manpower and secondly, Punjabis don't like sea as much. To get good education, you need to be from a well to do family if you are not a guy who grew up on quotas. The quota varieties, if well educated go for other meaty jobs like IAS/IPS/PCS or clerical jobs where you get upar ka income instead of joining Armed forces. So the majority of officers in IN are from well to do families for whom money alone is not the criteria for choosing armed forces as a carear option.
I have studied in BPS Pilani, Sainik School-Chittorgarh and NPS Delhi and I can say that after leaving SS-Chittsberg, When I joined NPS delhi, I was shocked to see the attitude of the huge Punjabi community in Delhi in those days.

 

[Ray]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Thanks Etc

Incidentally two stone age ex army chiefs and one air force chief are facing corruption charges for Adarsh & Copter deal respectively. They negotiated these deals while in sevice, Leading from the front ?? at least six Lt Gen / Maj Gen's have been Court Martialled or are facing inquiry in the last five years, for serious charges, grooming and training youngsters ?? what a joke, the seniors need to set their house in order first. The previous army chief went to court for his DOB, a similar case of a Lt Gen who realised late in life that his DOB was wrong as it was from a tewa ( horoscope) which was wrongly filled up as his mother was illiterate. The number of court cases, stat & non-stat complaints by senior officers is mind boggling. They are all today's generation ??

No, they are not of today's generation.

But when today's generation becomes stoneage to the newer generation, they would be in a worse shape.

One of the reasons why this rot that you have mentioned has set in, is because we are now an egalitarian army with its negative effects.

The reason for some of the example that you have given is because ever since the Terrorism hit Kashmir Valley and the Army went into the LICO mode, unit cohesiveness and regimental traditions (that means grooming too) went for a six. The units became 'on call', operated in sub units and sub sub units, training in such an environment because 'on the job', and in essence, the unit structure transmogrified and there was no time to build unit cohesion.

Terrorism and LICO also brought under negative factor into play. Military actions were dictated by politics played by politicians under the direction of the joint command at Srinagar. The importance of politics and politicians were not lost. So, some seized the 'chance' to feed fat their misplaced ambitions.

When the civil leadership is ignorant of military manoeuvres but shares equally in the command of armies, the soldiers get confused. - Sun Tzu

Mulayam Singh, as the Defence Minister, brought in the full force of political dispensation.

Mulayam Singh Yadav wrestled his way securing promotions, extensions and waivers for his favourites, the collective cause of the present crises in service headquarters. In his time, it was simply a case of "yeh General banega (He will become a general)".

This is how a major general, twice rejected in a board, was given an extension and promoted while another's case was deferred to accommodate this officer. Yet another major general having hibernated for nearly two years was forced to go to court to secure his promotion.

The new slogan at army headquarters, 'MoD Power: Go get it', was coined after Sachin Tendulkar's ad campaign for a credit card. General Ved Malik had to remind Mulayam Singh Yadav that there was an army regulation forbidding serving officers from contacting politicians and bureaucrats for favours as this would undermine the chain of command and sanctify of promotion boards. Mulayam gave Malik a lecture on democracy.

If the rot sets in, then the cookies will crumble. Therefore, it is not surprising that some have used politicians to rise to the helm or take their protection to loot.

As far as Stat and non Stats go, isn't it natural when politics creeps into the system like termites and promotions and postings are for the grabs depending upon which side of the political dispensation the misplaced ambition Joes latch on?

Are you aware that you are supposed to go to the AG's and check your Record of Service, every time you pass through Delhi and if there is an error you are responsible. Is it possible?

I would like to mention that I never found time to go to Delhi to check my Record of Service.

When I retired, and my Record of Service was sent to me, I was astonished to find that the fact I had done JC Course was not endorsed! And yet, I was a JC instructor, did Staff Course (JC is mandatory for appearing in the exam), commanded a unit (JC mandatory again) and fmn!

That much for record keeping in the Army!

As far as court cases, you feel that it is confined to senior officers alone? Now, which today's officer will like to burn his boats when there is still hope that it is still buoyant.

A senior officer who goes to court knows that he has burnt his boat and the only salvation is the Courts and even then, it could get no worse.

Psychology and its effect is an important factor to a man's motivation and that should not be forgotten!

 

[pmaitra]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

1999, kargil was a failure of senior officers of the IA and the situation was saved by the heroism of Junior officers. The rut in IA started way back in mid 80s with third pay commission. We no longer get candidates from well to do respected families who joined armed forces for the honour and not money. Now we have problems even between the NDA cadets who are children of officers and those who are children of JCOs.
After partition, the children of punjabi refugees grew up and joined forces in large numbers sometime in mid sixties. These guys grew up to be flag ranks in late 90s and they brought with them the mentality of looters. from ketchup col to booze brigadiers to those asking for Blue labels were nearly all punjabis.
One of the thread on DFI has clearly brought out that punjabis never fought a war in their history. they always surrendered to the invaders meekly. The first round of battle used to be on Khyber and next Panipat. Nothing in Punjab. The short period of dominance of Punjabis in mid 18th century was due to the third battle of panipat which resulted in complete destruction of Afgan forces even after winning the battle, to such an extent that they never recovered from it. And pls have a look at the roll of dishonour of IA+IAF+IN, Punjabis have defeated evryone in that. Only place where they have been victorious.
two Punjabi Generals, JJ & Kapoor together have done more damage to IA than anyone else in the history of IA. They have tried to make IA same as PA, punjabian dee baap kee jaagir.

You might find this interesting: Battle of Saragarhi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[pkroyal]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Another interesting trend in officer mess parties is sit down table for four, ie the IO / RO when invited for dinner / parties in regimental functions, the CO willingly obeys these diktats and is party to this charade as he joins this high table with his spouse. Rest of the officers shovel their food with indifference and we speak of breaking bread together !!. My personal experience in a formation just prior to my PMR was "inner circle" / ''outer circle" for snacks which meant 80:20 ( a combination of walnut kernels + cashew nuts) for Brig,s & above and peanuts with shredded onion for Cols & below in the officers mess. My opposing it in a mess meeting was declared as immature & brushed aside as" out of section average " as no one else opposed it . Phew ! more gems to follow.

 

[Decklander]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

You might find this interesting: Battle of Saragarhi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am well awre of this and I had posted this link earlier in another thread. But that does not mean anything. you will be shocked to hear that a particlar batallion of a regiment of mostly Punjabi soldiers of IA has the dubious distinction of having been taken POW in 1965 & 1971 war and was disbanded for this very reason. That regiment does not have that particular number in its regiments list. It had something to do with Sikhs and punjabis only.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

I am well awre of this and I had posted this link earlier in another thread. But that does not mean anything. you will be shocked to hear that a particlar batallion of a regiment of mostly Punjabi soldiers of IA has the dubious distinction of having been taken POW in 1965 & 1971 war and was disbanded for this very reason. That regiment does not have that particular number in its regiments list. It had something to do with Sikhs and punjabis only.

I am not challenging what you said about that PoW thing. The Sikh Light Infantry did wrap up East Pakistan in 14 days. That is a great achievement. I think it is fair to say that there are equally enough glorious achievements.

 

[Decklander]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

I am not challenging what you said about that PoW thing. The Sikh Light Infantry did wrap up East Pakistan in 14 days. That is a great achievement. I think it is fair to say that there are equally enough glorious achievements.

Can you imagine whole batallion with CO taken POW? Can you find anyother regiment of IA with such shocking stats?

 

[pmaitra]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Can you imagine whole batallion with CO taken POW? Can you find anyother regiment of IA with such shocking stats?

Is there any verifiable source? This is news to me.

 

[Ray]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

1999, kargil was a failure of senior officers of the IA and the situation was saved by the heroism of Junior officers. The rut in IA started way back in mid 80s with third pay commission. We no longer get candidates from well to do respected families who joined armed forces for the honour and not money. Now we have problems even between the NDA cadets who are children of officers and those who are children of JCOs.
After partition, the children of punjabi refugees grew up and joined forces in large numbers sometime in mid sixties. These guys grew up to be flag ranks in late 90s and they brought with them the mentality of looters. from ketchup col to booze brigadiers to those asking for Blue labels were nearly all punjabis.
One of the thread on DFI has clearly brought out that punjabis never fought a war in their history. they always surrendered to the invaders meekly. The first round of battle used to be on Khyber and next Panipat. Nothing in Punjab. The short period of dominance of Punjabis in mid 18th century was due to the third battle of panipat which resulted in complete destruction of Afgan forces even after winning the battle, to such an extent that they never recovered from it. And pls have a look at the roll of dishonour of IA+IAF+IN, Punjabis have defeated evryone in that. Only place where they have been victorious.
two Punjabi Generals, JJ & Kapoor together have done more damage to IA than anyone else in the history of IA. They have tried to make IA same as PA, punjabian dee baap kee jaagir.

I would not go so far as to label any community.

I would rather prefer to analyse it from the point of view of psychology.

The people who came from West Pakistan (as it was later known) mostly congregated in Delhi. Quite of few were well to do people, who had overnight had become paupers from having lived an affluent life.

History indicates that most of the marauders who came into India came from the areas where these people lived. Hence, they learned the art of 'survival of the fittest'. I presume this ethos became genetically a signature of the psychology.

After Partition, some went into business and some sought a respectable career and given the shortage that occurred when the Muslim elements of the British Indian Army went to Pakistan, they filled the void; and they were taken to be the 'martial races'. The mentality of survival of the fittest never left them. And, you have to grant them, that they are a very enterprising people.

The examples that you give of people are those, who are a victim of this psychology – survival of the fittest.

I don't brush all Punjabis with the same brush since the original citizens of Delhi, also Punjabis, look on the immigrants with disdain and label them of 'the Lajpat Nagar mentality'.

Further, I will add, because of Regimentation and the Izzat stuff drummed in, aberrations through this mentality was under check.

It is only when egalitarianism, espoused by Nehru and made into a fine art by Krishna Menon, and the slow politicisation of the Army through promoting the interests of favourites like Kaul etc, did these people realise that aligning to politicians was looking at gift horse in the teeth.

JJ and Kapoor are but children of this culture though they have given a new 'high' to the rot!

 

[pkroyal]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

No, they are not of today's generation.

But when today's generation becomes stoneage to the newer generation, they would be in a worse shape.

One of the reasons why this rot that you have mentioned has set in, is because we are now an egalitarian army with its negative effects.

The reason for some of the example that you have given is because ever since the Terrorism hit Kashmir Valley and the Army went into the LICO mode, unit cohesiveness and regimental traditions (that means grooming too) went for a six. The units became 'on call', operated in sub units and sub sub units, training in such an environment because 'on the job', and in essence, the unit structure transmogrified and there was no time to build unit cohesion.

Terrorism and LICO also brought under negative factor into play. Military actions were dictated by politics played by politicians under the direction of the joint command at Srinagar. The importance of politics and politicians were not lost. So, some seized the 'chance' to feed fat their misplaced ambitions.

Mulayam Singh, as the Defence Minister, brought in the full force of political dispensation.

Mulayam Singh Yadav wrestled his way securing promotions, extensions and waivers for his favourites, the collective cause of the present crises in service headquarters. In his time, it was simply a case of "yeh General banega (He will become a general)".

This is how a major general, twice rejected in a board, was given an extension and promoted while another's case was deferred to accommodate this officer. Yet another major general having hibernated for nearly two years was forced to go to court to secure his promotion.

The new slogan at army headquarters, 'MoD Power: Go get it', was coined after Sachin Tendulkar's ad campaign for a credit card. General Ved Malik had to remind Mulayam Singh Yadav that there was an army regulation forbidding serving officers from contacting politicians and bureaucrats for favours as this would undermine the chain of command and sanctify of promotion boards. Mulayam gave Malik a lecture on democracy.

If the rot sets in, then the cookies will crumble. Therefore, it is not surprising that some have used politicians to rise to the helm or take their protection to loot.

As far as Stat and non Stats go, isn't it natural when politics creeps into the system like termites and promotions and postings are for the grabs depending upon which side of the political dispensation the misplaced ambition Joes latch on?

Are you aware that you are supposed to go to the AG's and check your Record of Service, every time you pass through Delhi and if there is an error you are responsible. Is it possible?

I would like to mention that I never found time to go to Delhi to check my Record of Service.

When I retired, and my Record of Service was sent to me, I was astonished to find that the fact I had done JC Course was not endorsed! And yet, I was a JC instructor, did Staff Course (JC is mandatory for appearing in the exam), commanded a unit (JC mandatory again) and fmn!

That much for record keeping in the Army!

As far as court cases, you feel that it is confined to senior officers alone? Now, which today's officer will like to burn his boats when there is still hope that it is still buoyant.

A senior officer who goes to court knows that he has burnt his boat and the only salvation is the Courts and even then, it could get no worse.

Psychology and its effect is an important factor to a man's motivation and that should not be forgotten!

"when today,s generation becomes stoneage etc,"

your analysis is hypothetical & speculative, as we are discussing present times and not declarations of clairvoyance for future. The chiefs I mentioned were not in regimental service in 1990 when LICO started, their grooming was over by then. So you agree that the seniors need to set an example first.
regarding supersession & service GET ME A BRADLEY , I WILLINGLY WILL BECOME HIS PATTON AFTER SUPERSESSION

 

[Ray]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

No unit or Regiment is good or bad.

There are only good or bad officers.

 

[Ray]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

"when today,s generation becomes stoneage etc,"

your analysis is hypothetical & speculative, as we are discussing present times and not declarations of clairvoyance for future. The chiefs I mentioned were not in regimental service in 1990 when LICO started, their grooming was over by then. So you agree that the seniors need to set an example first.
regarding supersession & service GET ME A BRADLEY , I WILLINGLY WILL BECOME HIS PATTON AFTER SUPERSESSION

Read my posts and you will realise why they are what they are.

But if you feel that you alone understand the Army and others don't you delude yourself.

You are merely looking at the Army from an ant'e eye view with limited experience.

One requires experience and knowledge from every level, to understand the broader picture.

For instance, what the Chief knows, maybe the Lt Gens don't.

Heard of the jawan's view of the progress of the Kargil war when asked by the excitedly breathless Barkha Dutt?

Now, only the gullible and ignorant will believe that the jawan's view was the last word of how the war was progressing and what is to be done!

Not only senior officers should set and example, but ALL officers.

Further, corruption and the promotion at all costs attitude is also dependant on family grooming.

Maharaja Bhawani Singh of Jaipur,, who was an Armoured Corps officer, raised 10 PARA Commando,

He was awarded India's second highest military honour, the Maha Vir Chakra, for his gallantry in the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971.

Having proved that he was not a mere soft Maharaja, but a real Rajput warrior, he hung up his boots in the rank of Brigadier in 1974.

He required no promotions to add to his glory and he required no ill gotten gains to refurbish his funds because he had a family reputation to live up to and guard from being sullied!

But a boy living in a cramped chawl, who becomes an officer and finds that officers are living in larger houses which are well appointed, he wants to reach that status quick time. That leads him to cut corners (if you know what I mean)!

As far as seeking a Bradley for you, seek and ye shall find.

 

[Decklander]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

I would not go so far as to label any community.

I would rather prefer to analyse it from the point of view of psychology.

The people who came from West Pakistan (as it was later known) mostly congregated in Delhi. Quite of few were well to do people, who had overnight had become paupers from having lived an affluent life.

History indicates that most of the marauders who came into India came from the areas where these people lived. Hence, they learned the art of 'survival of the fittest'. I presume this ethos became genetically a signature of the psychology.

After Partition, some went into business and some sought a respectable career and given the shortage that occurred when the Muslim elements of the British Indian Army went to Pakistan, they filled the void; and they were taken to be the 'martial races'. The mentality of survival of the fittest never left them. And, you have to grant them, that they are a very enterprising people.

The examples that you give of people are those, who are a victim of this psychology – survival of the fittest.

I don't brush all Punjabis with the same brush since the original citizens of Delhi, also Punjabis, look on the immigrants with disdain and label them of 'the Lajpat Nagar mentality'.

Further, I will add, because of Regimentation and the Izzat stuff drummed in, aberrations through this mentality was under check.

It is only when egalitarianism, espoused by Nehru and made into a fine art by Krishna Menon, and the slow politicisation of the Army through promoting the interests of favourites like Kaul etc, did these people realise that aligning to politicians was looking at gift horse in the teeth.

JJ and Kapoor are but children of this culture though they have given a new 'high' to the rot!

The culture of corruption was alien to non Punjabis, they brought it into India and they are the most corrupt as for them bribe means Dastoori-tradition. DGMO is Rajiv Bhatia, another Punjabi who has done max damage to IA by doing that inquiry into TSD. BTW, who was the Lt Gen who was removed during Kargil war and who was the Lt. Gen who was sent packing during Op Parakaram who commanded the strike corp.

 

[Decklander]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

No, they are not of today's generation.



Mulayam Singh, as the Defence Minister, brought in the full force of political dispensation.

Mulayam Singh Yadav wrestled his way securing promotions, extensions and waivers for his favourites, the collective cause of the present crises in service headquarters. In his time, it was simply a case of "yeh General banega (He will become a general)".

This is how a major general, twice rejected in a board, was given an extension and promoted while another's case was deferred to accommodate this officer. Yet another major general having hibernated for nearly two years was forced to go to court to secure his promotion.

The new slogan at army headquarters, 'MoD Power: Go get it', was coined after Sachin Tendulkar's ad campaign for a credit card. General Ved Malik had to remind Mulayam Singh Yadav that there was an army regulation forbidding serving officers from contacting politicians and bureaucrats for favours as this would undermine the chain of command and sanctify of promotion boards. Mulayam gave Malik a lecture on democracy.

George fernandes sacked Adm Vishnu Bhagwat for opposing the appointment of kaju Kishmiss Kohli. The most third rate Adm IN has ever had. Adm Bhagwat openly challanged Fernandes that he will not accept Kohli and will not sign his orders for promotion. Kohli was posted in Cochin, he was flown in a BSF ac overnight, kept in an area away from IN, and made to take over as FOCWF in the early hours by the baboos of MOD. he flew his flag for the first time on my ship INS Gomati in late 1990. He is the only Adm I have seen in my life who wud drink at sea when neither officers nor sailors drink. sailors can't drink as they can drink only ashore and so the officers don't drink as the sailors can't drink. His standard demand was the costliest scotch and wines with coconut water and kaju kishmiss. so Adm KK Kohli came to be known as Kaju kishmiss Kohli.

 

[Neil]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

@ Decklander sir...:: sir arent u being too harsh on a particular community ...?? i mean this wasnt a mutiny ... yes worrisome since army is characterized by its discipline ... but not anywhere near to being very serious incident like the one we saw in Ladakh to pin the blame on a particular community... no offence meant to u sir...!!

also the fact about army officers being money minded ... i think the armed forced cant be blamed for that ... the society at large has changed ... the personnel have family ... the family has needs .. and the amount of hard work our boys put they are paid in peanuts ... - not siding with corruption but there are always a few bad apples and our boys cant be blamed for bad deeds of some douche ... just my 2 cents

 

[Ray]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Another interesting trend in officer mess parties is sit down table for four, ie the IO / RO when invited for dinner / parties in regimental functions, the CO willingly obeys these diktats and is party to this charade as he joins this high table with his spouse. Rest of the officers shovel their food with indifference and we speak of breaking bread together !!. My personal experience in a formation just prior to my PMR was "inner circle" / ''outer circle" for snacks which meant 80:20 ( a combination of walnut kernels + cashew nuts) for Brig,s & above and peanuts with shredded onion for Cols & below in the officers mess. My opposing it in a mess meeting was declared as immature & brushed aside as" out of section average " as no one else opposed it . Phew ! more gems to follow.

Read my post on Dinner/ Regimental/ Guest/ Ladies Nights?

It was not partaken on tables sitting four. It was on a long single dining table.

What you are mentioning is what the New Generation is doing.

The whole idea of eating on separate tables is idiotic and most disgusting.

However, when there are Raising Day Celebrations, practically the whole Station is invited.

There can be no single table that can accommodate the whole station.

Another non military thing (at least in my view) that is done, is cutting a cake.

What should be done instead is to raise a Toast which is raising one's glass high when wishing someone good health

It is surprising that you served under people who encouraged 'inner' and 'outer circles' for snacks. That is a new one for me!

do regale us with more of this new 'innovations' that you experienced.

 

[Ray]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

The culture of corruption was alien to non Punjabis, they brought it into India and they are the most corrupt as for them bribe means Dastoori-tradition. DGMO is Rajiv Bhatia, another Punjabi who has done max damage to IA by doing that inquiry into TSD. BTW, who was the Lt Gen who was removed during Kargil war and who was the Lt. Gen who was sent packing during Op Parakaram who commanded the strike corp.

Bhadwar and Vij.

 

[Decklander]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

@ Decklander sir...:: sir arent u being too harsh on a particular community ...?? i mean this wasnt a mutiny ... yes worrisome since army is characterized by its discipline ... but not anywhere near to being very serious incident like the one we saw in Ladakh to pin the blame on a particular community... no offence meant to u sir...!!

also the fact about army officers being money minded ... i think the armed forced cant be blamed for that ... the society at large has changed ... the personnel have family ... the family has needs .. and the amount of hard work our boys put they are paid in peanuts ... - not siding with corruption but there are always a few bad apples and our boys cant be blamed for bad deeds of some douche ... just my 2 cents

I agree to your POV and also to that of @Ray sir. I may be harsh on them, but that is also the truth.
Officers of armed forces come from Indian society only and grow up with biases and ambitions and dreams with which they join armed forces. So the moral and mental fibre of Indian armed forces is a manifestation of the society. The old traditions and seniors and demands of the profession can only suppress them and modify them a bit, but they can't completely remove or change them. Whenever such person finds authority, those traits of his personality will come out.
I have debated the issue of," leaders are not made, Leaders are born" or Leadership quality can't be taught, It is inherited".
We have to chose officers of better caliber than what we are choosing today and for that we need better and bigger target group. For that we need changes in the service pattern and rewards(pay) which the armed forces offer to a prospective recruit. Is it not shocking that educated youth of India prefers to remain unemployed but does not want to consider armed forces as a great way of life.
Also can we restore the glory of armed forces which we enjoyed till late 80s? Pls remeber that only officers of armed forces are called officers rest all are secretaries to govt of India and shockingly these secretaries are dictating terms to officers thanks to the Nehruvian neglect of forces and mentality of third rate decocratic secular leaders.

 

[Decklander]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Bhadwar and Vij.

AND sir which part of India did they come from AND which community?

 

[Ray]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

AND sir which part of India did they come from AND which community?

Let's leave it.

The politicians have corrupted the innards of the military, and the 'cat's whiskers' are making hay while the sun shines!

Though I don't know why Kapil Vij was sacked.

I know him personally and he is a good sort.