11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 injured

[Ray]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

The last person to join the armed forces from my family was in the 1990s and is right now the only serving member.

After 1962 ? is it a fault of the system or Punjabi refugees or Punjabis or Sikhs or all three ?

Since you have mentioned a timeline, it appears that there was a change in the system, because I don't believe in astrology. If that is the case then @Decklander is wrong although his timeline suggests that since 1947, Indian Armed Forces and Society has been plagued by evil, (assuming the British had ushered in Ram Rajya).

So far as I know most of the junior officers are now coming from "different" backgrounds and we are seeing increasing disciplinary reports. And they have joined in the last 2 decades.

I am distressed that you ascribe the 'Punjabi' phenomenon to me, when I have repeatedly indicated that the morass has nothing to do with any community and instead with the influx of those who came from lowly paid jobs and jobs in 1962 and thereafter, where the 'ways' of the society led to the devaluing of the Honour Code, as some Keen Kumars picked up their ways since they realised that had become the name of the game.

As far as the rationale why some feel (and indeed there are many who do feel) that the Punjabis are brash and survivors, I merely alluded to the historical fact that all marauders who came to India, mainly came through the North. Hence, if there is a feeling, justified or not, it could be attributed to the theory of 'survival of the fittest'. I appended adequate links to indicate the attitude to include references to researcher, Kaur. I take it Kaur is a Punjabi name and she would not demean her people but base her research paper on facts. Now, if she is hallucinating, then it is most regrettable.

Yes, today the intake is from a level that is different from previous times. But that is no criterion for the decline that we see (and which many would not admit and feel that it the call of the times). When I joined, not all were from very highbrow family either. Deepak Kapoor is a JCO's son (or so it is said, but never mentioned), while VK Singh proudly admits he is a JCO's son.

While no corruption charge could be levelled at VK, Deepak Kapoor has indicated that being a COAS is a cash cow appointment!

The difference – grooming in the unit and the ethics taught.

There will be many who may not agree with me, but I am a firm believer that birth and family alone does not make an officer.

The grooming in ethics and gentlemanly behaviour does. And that cannot be done cloaked with 'scientific and statistical' gobbledygooks and sugarcoat failures of command and the deficit in leadership. Instead understanding human psychology and activating the stimuli that makes a good professional soldier, capable of looking after his command, generating the right chemistry to be respected, taken to be a commander who can lead one to battle, a commander who sacrifices unwarranted creature comforts that is denied to his command or not within accepted norms is what can cut down all these aberration that we see.

India is thriving on a web of lies, falsehood, and fudged statistics.

How can the military, that is so politicised today, not follow our so called leaders?

 

[Singh]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

@Ray sir,

I didn't ascribe the "Punjabi" comment to you, because I used your post as an affirmation of my stance. I hope that clears up any misunderstanding.

 

[Ray]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Any idea what happened with 10 SIKH LI?

I just can't reconcile with this.

Who the hell was this offg CO and who was the SM?

 

[Decklander]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

@Singh, I have stated it manytimes on this thread and I will repost to clarify.
The seeds for rot were sown in late 80s with third pay commission which greatly reduced the status of armed forces by equating them with the civil services and the emoluments were not enough. The situation became worst in mid 90s when REFUGEEs from Pakistan rose to senior ranks. They brought with them a mentality of loot and plunder. This was evident in Kargil war wherein the senior leadership failed and the Juniors saved the day for the nation.
In my expression of refugee, everyone who was a refugee is included. Punjabi is not a caste, it denotes people of a region which includes brahmins, sikhs, khatris, jaats, christians etc. All those who had this mentality of a refugee is what I meant. I had clearly questioned you that why is it that same group of people living in India and who were not refugees, did not display such liking for corruption and easy money. I had also given you an example of sindhi refugees who did not succumb to such lures.
I hope I have made myself clear to you. I still maintain my POV. You have to understand it and take a stand which you may feel is correct.

 

[Singh]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

@SinghThe situation became worst in mid 90s when REFUGEEs from Pakistan rose to senior ranks. They brought with them a mentality of loot and plunder.

Sir,

1. Punjabis esp Hindus and Sikhs themselves didn't distinguish themselves based on West or East Punjab.

Supporting Facts
"¢ Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs all voted for Unionist Party
"¢ Akali movement the current ruling party in Punjab was started by West Punjabis.
"¢ Rule of Maharaja Ranjit Singh which forged Punjabiyat.
"¢ Radclife Line was divised in 40s as per population of Muslims and Non-Muslims
"¢ Largescale Punjabi Migrations
==

2. West Punjabis(at the time of Independence) were the dominant soldiers(of the two Punjabs) in the Indian Army. And of them the Sikhs (and Hindus?) were present in disproportionately higher numbers.

Supporting Facts:
"¢ West Punjab was the region of most recruits during WW2
"¢ West Punjab was home to the most number of Military land grants , horse breeding grants, and irrigation facilities. ( @Ray sir made the points regarding Jagirs)
"¢ West Punjab was the most populace of the two; thanks to size, colonization of waste land (more than 50,000 km2)


==
3. West Punjab was the most prosperous region of North India. And Sikhs and Hindus were by far the richest and dominant

Supporting Facts
"¢ West Punjab was the granary of India at the time and very well irrigated, and in contrast East Punjab had virtually no irrigation facility and suffered frequent crop failures.
"¢ West Punjab was much more populace than East Punjab (PEPSU, HP, HR, PB etc)
"¢ Pakistani Punjab's cities are much bigger and numerous then Indian Punjab's.
"¢ Sikhs and Hindus controlled trade and businesses.
"¢ Sikhs and Hindus owned disproportionately higher land holdings, properties
"¢ Sikhs and Hindus were the most educated and dominated Administration

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4. West Punjabi origin Indians continued to join Indian Army after Independence

Supporting Facts
"¢ Your Sullen Attitude

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5. West Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs were the worst victims of violence, loot and plunder in recent Indian history.

Supporting Facts
Their high Status in West Punjab followed by Poverty in India.
Partition Violence

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6. West Punjabi migrants to India after Partition went from Paupers to one of the richest and most prosperous Community due to their enterprising nature.

Supporting Facts
"¢ In the 60s and 70s, there was a Small Scale Sector boom all over India, and specifically in Delhi and Ludhiana. Both centres of West Punjabis.
"¢ Empirical Observations
"¢ No demand for quotas, reservations or handouts.
"¢ They didn't loot or plunderer

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To me it appears, that West Punjabi origin folks historically haven't exhibited any traits of being looters or plunderers, not have they displayed them at present.

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This was evident in Kargil war wherein the senior leadership failed and the Juniors saved the day for the nation.

Clinching evidence that shows the 2 million strong West Punjabi are looters and plunderers.

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The situation became worst in mid 90s when REFUGEEs from Pakistan rose to senior ranks"¦"¦
B]They brought with them a mentality of loot and plunder[/B]...
...In my expression of refugee, everyone who was a refugee is included. Punjabi is not a caste, it denotes people of a region which includes brahmins, sikhs, khatris, jaats, christians etc. All those who had this mentality of a refugee is what I meant. Explain to me.

The West Punjabi from being paupers, today are one of the most richest and most prosperous community in India. They uplifted themselves without quotas, reservations, or handouts.

Is this a mentality or actions of looters and plunderers ?

What would you say about those people, who block roads and rails, and demand to be treated as low caste ?

=====

I had clearly questioned you that why is it that same group of people living in India and who were not refugees, did not display such liking for corruption and easy money.

Funnily, AAP is scoring higher support in places where these refugees are in a majority. Criminals are doing better in Delhi's villages.
=====

I had also given you an example of sindhi refugees who did not succumb to such lures.

Please don't talk to me about Sindhis. I have Sindhi relatives and friends.
Despite they being the butt of all jokes for their cultural traits, they are about as enterprising or corrupt as Punjabis.

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I hope I have made myself clear to you. I still maintain my POV. You have to understand it and take a stand which you may feel is correct.

You just called the heroes of Siachen, Longewalan and Dhaka (and from my family) as looters and plunderers. I have a hard time believing it.

 

[Decklander]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

@Singh, you are going beyond my posts. I had stated very clearly that culture of bribe was alien to present day India and refugees brought it and introduced it into India. Pls be clear that present day India had sikhs and also punjabis but they did not manifest such mentality. Infact even Delhi & haryana were part of punjab till 1966. Why did the population in these areas did not display such traits. You talk to a punjabi or sikh in Delhi and you will know the diff between those who came from Pakistan and those who were originally settled here. Why this difference?
Circumstances made that difference. Those who used to run a thela in pakistan started calling themselves an old landlord from pakistan. I have yet to meet a pakistani punjabi who says his father was a pauper in Pakistan. It seems everyone in Pakistan Punjab was a millionaire and bhikaaris were only in Indian Punjab. Once again I clarify, Punjabi means all those who came from Pakistan and not just sikhs.

 

[Decklander]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

@Singh, Are you aware as to how the compensation was given to these paki punjabis? A large number of muslims left their properties in India just the way large number of Hindus left their properties in Pakistan. These properties were given away on both sides of the border to refugees for settlement. Now the size of the property was based on the financial status of the family which they had in Pakistan. They all cheated, dhobis, thelawallas, tangaawallas and other such people claimed themselves to be zamindaars. That cheating runs deep in their blood.
No one in India can know them better than my family as all our lands were taken away from us to settle these cheats in south Delhi.

 

[TrueSpirit]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

@Singh, You have to explain as to why nearly all the officers of IA caught for corruption has such high percentage of Sikhs and Punjabis?

Sir, could it be because Sikhs constitute a significant portion of IA cadre (maybe, around 6% - 8% which is considerable when their limited numbers in Indian population is taken into account ) ?

 

[Singh]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

@Singh, you are going beyond my posts. I had stated very clearly that culture of bribe was alien to present day India and refugees brought it and introduced it into India.

When His Majesty's government took over the reins of the government from the Company, it applied the same principle to its own Indian staff through whom it ruled this huge (then undivided) nation from Peshawar to Dhaka to Kanyakumari. "Keep the officers and men happy to win their loyalty" was their motto. What is called bribe today was then called a "fee" or "commission", and was given openly across the table and not, as now, under it.

How our British rulers "legalised" bribery - The Hindu


When faced with elected Congress regimes' attempted exposure of administrative and police corruption in the late 1930s, colonial officials fell back on arguments that what Congressmen described as 'corruption', might often be better defined as 'custom'. The British Raj was run on a financial shoe-string, with officers thinly stretched over vast areas and populations. It was heavily dependent on armies of Indian subordinates, and could ill afford to consistently root out the 'customary' arrangements which secured its authority in the locality. Powerful landowners might control the local police constable, or compel free labour among the landless poor. The Raj needed him to help maintain law and order, and pay revenue. A local revenue official might take a commission (or 'dasturi' – customary payment) to allow cultivators access to land records, or a railway official might accept a 'gift' (or 'daalii') to arrange faster carriage for consignments of goods.
..
Britain's supposedly 'rational' system of revenue might thereby discipline the essentially corrupt societal interactions of India. The son of James – the philosopher John Stuart Mill – was influential on British administrative thinking about corruption as 'custom':

http://www.theindiasite.com/a-brief-history-of-corruption-in-india/



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Pls be clear that present day India had sikhs and also punjabis but they did not manifest such mentality. Infact even Delhi & haryana were part of punjab till 1966. Why did the population in these areas did not display such traits.

"While other governments were busy making tall moral statements about the need to maintain probity, Punjab under Kairon had already begun to move forward to contain corruption. The solution Kairon found was to establish a direct link with the people to know how they were being treated by government servants. This was much like the present effort to display the name and phone number of the vigilance officer in each government department. The big difference between then and now is that people then were still substantially in thrall of government servants. It required a special effort on the part of Kairon to ensure people lost their fear. His continuous and energetic travelling across the state and intermingling with workers from the field provided much needed inputs.

Kairon also built around him a phalanx of officers known for their probity, efficiency and no-nonsense behaviour. Such officers were also given considerable freedom to exercise their initiative. When in May 1957, the Central government instructed state governments to use merit as a criterion in appointing officers to the Selection Grade, Kairon promptly created an institutional structure to separate the chaff from the grain, as it were.

Such actions, however, earned Kairon the ill will of many government servants. By 1955, he had some 400 of them dismissed for serious malfeasance. Some 8,000 complaints were received during 1955-59. Of these, 4,000 were found to be baseless. Action was taken against some 2,000 people of whom 592 were dismissed from service.

Such actions endeared Kairon to the public. People voted for him. They also heeded his call to ignore the communal agitations being forced on the state by the Akalis, the Jan Sangh and the communists. Senior satraps from the Congress, moral do-gooders all, found themselves marginalised as Kairon expanded the Congress organisation.

Kairon's detractors within his party now began to charge him with corruption. Under Chaudhary Devi Lal, the detractors decided to be extraordinarily vocal. A detailed investigation by the AICC allowed Nehru to exonerate Kairon in a long, formal address to Rajya Sabha. Never before, or after, would a prime minister of India exonerate one of his own thus. When even this did not satisfy the detractors, Nehru ordered an inquiry by Sudhi Ranjan Das, retired Chief Justice of India. This much publicised inquiry took a few months to conclude that none of the charges against Kairon stood. Yet, it recommended Kairon be held "guilty" for his sons having independent businesses."

Chief minister and crusader - Indian Express

You were saying ?
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You talk to a punjabi or sikh in Delhi and you will know the diff between those who came from Pakistan and those who were originally settled here. Why this difference? Circumstances made that difference.

I have no idea what you are talking about ? Is it the dialect ?

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Those who used to run a thela in pakistan started calling themselves an old landlord from pakistan. I have yet to meet a pakistani punjabi who says his father was a pauper in Pakistan. It seems everyone in Pakistan Punjab was a millionaire and bhikaaris were only in Indian Punjab. Once again I clarify, Punjabi means all those who came from Pakistan and not just sikhs.

And I don't blame anyone for boasting either, its a good practice. They end up having a standard to live upto rather then face shame and ignominy.

As @Ray 's sir rather lengthy article by Kaur, showed that West Punjabis ended up working hard because they were too proud.

If you think a person is boasting, ask him about his street/village/mohalla, and go talk to his neighbours to corroborate.
Even today (although declining practice), marriage inquiries also depend on the socio-economic background from Pakistan.

 

[Decklander]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

@Singh, do you remember my post about Bribe=dastoori=custom? Whoever introduced it, the fact is that pak punjabis introduced it to mainland India. You have only supported my POV. Colonial rulers did it to keep their hold over India.
Deep down in my thoughts, I do not blame sikhs for not supporting 1857. if the nationalists had been victorious, India wud have been a nation with 500+ kingdoms. By default, the acts of sikhs to support British in 1857, ended up in a unified India that we are today. IMHO, Lord Mountbatton shud be given BHARAT RATNA.
The truth must be spoken in all its totality and with force to be heard by all.

 

[Decklander]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

West Punjabis never worked hard, they just bribed and prostituted their way Up.

 

[Ray]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

West Punjabis never worked hard, they just bribed and prostituted their way Up.

May I request that we now take a break?

 

[Singh]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

No one in India can know them better than my family as all our lands were taken away from us to settle these cheats in south Delhi.

So the cats out of the bag. I believe at @the_messiah also had some of his village lands redistributed.


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@Singh, Are you aware as to how the compensation was given to these paki punjabis? A large number of muslims left their properties in India just the way large number of Hindus left their properties in Pakistan.

These properties were given away on both sides of the border to refugees for settlement. Now the size of the property was based on the financial status of the family which they had in Pakistan.

They all cheated, dhobis, thelawallas, tangaawallas and other such people claimed themselves to be zamindaars. That cheating runs deep in their blood.

You should have admitted earlier that you had a personal grouse. I would've avoided this back and forth.

This is the Resettlement Criteria.

CONTENTS

==
The motivation on the part of the planners of partition riots on our side of Punjab may very well have included the landed and other properties. This point may go some distance to explain why the scale of Partition massacres in other areas of the present Pakistan, for instance Sindh, did not match what happened in Punjab.

It can be safely concluded that in the case of this agricultural property located in western Punjab, Sikhs and Hindus were the losers. The same goes for the huge trading interests and properties owned by Sikhs and Hindus in the region. Muslims, clearly, were the beneficiaries.
Victims and beneficiaries of Partition – The Express Tribune

==

 

[Blackwater]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

West Punjabis never worked hard, they just bribed and prostituted their way Up.

jallandhar is full of west punjabis,

they worked hard to make india sports industry,every west punjabi after partition worked hard to settle there families.

 

[Singh]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

@Singh, do you remember my post about Bribe=dastoori=custom? Whoever introduced it, the fact is that pak punjabis introduced it to mainland India. You have only supported my POV. Colonial rulers did it to keep their hold over India.

Please take a position. Culture of Bribes was alien prior to Independence, and yet it was introduced after Partition by the West Punjabis ?

Deep down in my thoughts, I do not blame sikhs for not supporting 1857. if the nationalists had been victorious, India wud have been a nation with 500+ kingdoms. By default, the acts of sikhs to support British in 1857, ended up in a unified India that we are today. IMHO, Lord Mountbatton shud be given BHARAT RATNA. The truth must be spoken in all its totality and with force to be heard by all.

Sikhs, Dogras, Multanis, Pathans, Gorkhas all supported the British in 1857.
In fact the way Pathans butchered the mutineers esp muslim mutineers sends shivers down the spine. Please refer to Darlymple's The Last Mughal.

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West Punjabis never worked hard, they just bribed and prostituted their way Up.

 

[Singh]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Sir, could it be because Sikhs constitute a significant portion of IA cadre (maybe, around 6% - 8% which is considerable when their limited numbers in Indian population is taken into account ) ?

A majority(out of all communities) of Officers are Punjabi (Hindus and Sikhs). So far in the last 6 years, in the Brigadier Rank and above, largely Brahmins have been convicted/indicted/arrested.

@Decklander Sir, is not blaming Sikhs nor Punjabis but specifically West Punjabis (Hindus and Sikhs). He blames them and solely them for corrupting both India and the Indian Army.

I believe most of your neighbours in Vishal Enclave are Punjabis ?

 

[Singh]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

jallandhar is full of west punjabis,

they worked hard to make india sports industry,every west punjabi after partition worked hard to settle there families.

Also Ludhiana, Chandigarh, Amritsar.
In fact most of the film industry Punjabis are West Punjabis.

 

[Singh]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

West Punjabis never worked hard, they just bribed and prostituted their way Up.

How about supporting me in AAP and ending corruption, bribery and prostitution ?

 

[Singh]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

May I request that we now take a break?

Absolutely Sir.

 

[TrueSpirit]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

A majority(out of all communities) of Officers are Punjabi (Hindus and Sikhs).

Percentage-wise, Yes. However, I believe the highest proportion is from my origin state Himachal
Numbers-wise, Punjabis would be at par with Rajputs, Pahadis & Brahmans(who are also disproportionately represented when their limited numbers in populace is accounted for).

@Decklander Sir, is not blaming Sikhs nor Punjabis but specifically West Punjabis (Hindus and Sikhs). He blames them and solely them for corrupting both India and the Indian Army.

I see that, but have no authority, experience or insight like Ray Sir to even comment on this.

I believe most of your neighbours in Vishal Enclave are Punjabis ?

Yes, all of them. And, they are mostly from now-Pakistan area. Many of them regularly visit their shrines in Pak, regularly organize langars & religious processions, even if they cannot easily afford it. Let me add that they are living off the rent from their tenants & cannot be said to be doing good economically. Some of them are pensioners from different deptt. like transport, water etc. but their sons did not do well academically (this is quite a consistent trend among them) & they are running petty shops, some in weekly markets (Sunday market in Tagore Garden, Mangal in Karol Bagh & Friday in Moti Nagar, I guess ?). But, they still own multiple cars (bare minimum would be Honda City-even if it is Second hand) & are easily the most ostentatious lot, anywhere. But, for all their shortcomings, I would say that people of this locality are much better-off in terms of ethics & civility than the Jat/Gurjar dominated areas. This entire stretch is definitely one of the most secure places in Delhi where petty crimes like theft, loot, robbery, eve-teasing rarely ever happen. Cannot recount even one instance. This people inhabiting the place deserve admiration for this.

As you must have noticed, it was always a happening destination: reasonably hip crowd, AR Rahman-type concerts, nearly a dozen or more malls/multiplexes with few hundred metres (many more upcoming). And, it is getting even better by the day.

I would never ever even think of living in any other place in Delhi (South Delhi included) except that....Save, Janpath area