India-China Relations

[Ray]

check what is southern part of China in the paper first.

from your quote:

"Also, "South," in China is the area from Shanghai down to the border of the Southeast Asian nations of Laos and Vietnam.

Other nonHan ethnicities lived in the South, such as the Lao/Thai (Tai-Kadai language group) folks also came from Central China and were pushed South by the Han, they still have relatives in modern China like the Zhuang and Dong peoples."

Check where is Shanghai in your 200bc map.

Obfuscation once again at best.

The exact boundary between these two regions has never been precisely defined.

Geographical dividing line between northern and southern China is the Huai River–Qin Mountains Line.

In the eastern provinces like Jiangsu and Anhui, the Yangtze River may instead be perceived as the north–south boundary instead of the Huai River, but this is a recent development.

There is an ambiguous area, the region around Nanyang, Henan, that lies in the gap where the Qin has ended and the Huai River has not yet begun; in addition, central Anhui and Jiangsu lie south of the Huai River but north of the Yangtze, making their classification somewhat ambiguous as well. As such, the boundary between northern and southern China does not follow provincial boundaries; it cuts through Shaanxi, Henan, Anhui, and Jiangsu, and creates areas such as Hanzhong (Shaanxi), Xinyang (Henan), and Xuzhou (Jiangsu) that lie on an opposite half of China from the rest of their respective provinces. This may have been deliberate; the Mongol Yuan Dynasty and Han Chinese Ming Dynasty established many of these boundaries intentionally to discourage regionalist separatism.

Northern and southern China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Qin Mountains and Huai River approximately separate northern Mandarin-speaking regions on the one hand, and southwestern Mandarin-, eastern Mandarin-, and non-Mandarin-speaking regions on the other. ("Mandarin" and "Southern" on this map refer to Sinitic languages, while other groups are not Sinitic.)

 

[CCP]

Obfuscation once again at best.

The exact boundary between these two regions has never been precisely defined.

Geographical dividing line between northern and southern China is the Huai River–Qin Mountains Line.

In the eastern provinces like Jiangsu and Anhui, the Yangtze River may instead be perceived as the north–south boundary instead of the Huai River, but this is a recent development.

There is an ambiguous area, the region around Nanyang, Henan, that lies in the gap where the Qin has ended and the Huai River has not yet begun; in addition, central Anhui and Jiangsu lie south of the Huai River but north of the Yangtze, making their classification somewhat ambiguous as well. As such, the boundary between northern and southern China does not follow provincial boundaries; it cuts through Shaanxi, Henan, Anhui, and Jiangsu, and creates areas such as Hanzhong (Shaanxi), Xinyang (Henan), and Xuzhou (Jiangsu) that lie on an opposite half of China from the rest of their respective provinces. This may have been deliberate; the Mongol Yuan Dynasty and Han Chinese Ming Dynasty established many of these boundaries intentionally to discourage regionalist separatism.

Northern and southern China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Again , the author define south China is :"South," in China is the area from Shanghai down to the border of the Southeast Asian nations of Laos and Vietnam, And his study based on that.

look again your post #678 .

 

[Ray]

Han people are from Hanzhong, which in turn, is derived from the Han River, which flows through the Hanzhong Plain (zhong means middle).

This important to note:

There is an ambiguous area, the region around Nanyang, Henan, that lies in the gap where the Qin has ended and the Huai River has not yet begun; in addition, central Anhui and Jiangsu lie south of the Huai River but north of the Yangtze, making their classification somewhat ambiguous as well. As such, the boundary between northern and southern China does not follow provincial boundaries; it cuts through Shaanxi, Henan, Anhui, and Jiangsu, and creates areas such as Hanzhong (Shaanxi), Xinyang (Henan), and Xuzhou (Jiangsu) that lie on an opposite half of China from the rest of their respective provinces. This may have been deliberate; the Mongol Yuan Dynasty and Han Chinese Ming Dynasty established many of these boundaries intentionally to discourage regionalist separatism.

Having Sinicised the 'barbarians', the Hans were always at work to be ambiguous so as to prevent regionalist separatism.

Just as the are doing in Tibet and Xinjiang now.

It is now an almost genetic trait for the Han to be duplicitous.

 

[parijataka]

Question..One China, as in? Taiwan and China, or is it Tibet and China? Anyways we should start talking to Taiwan, instead of the cold transactional relationship. They dont respect our sentiments so no reason to respect theirs.

`One China` policy refers to CHina-Taiwan being one nation.

 

[Ashutosh Lokhande]

`One China` policy refers to CHina-Taiwan being one nation.

also tibet

 

[JBH22]

In your face Indian hawks infact we are pussies

 

[ezsasa]

self-delete

 

[Compersion]

`One China` policy refers to CHina-Taiwan being one nation.

There is difference between one china policy and one china principle;

The One-China policy (simplified Chinese: 一个中国政策; traditional Chinese: 一個中國政策 ; pinyin: yī gè Zhōngguó zhèngcè) refers to the policy or view that there is only one state called "China", despite the existence of two governments that claim to be "China".

As a policy, this means that countries seeking diplomatic relations with the People's Republic of China (PRC) must break official relations with the Republic of China (ROC) and vice versa. Hence, all the countries recognizing the ROC recognize it as the sole legitimate representative of all of China and not just the island of Taiwan and other islands which it controls.[1] Similarly, all states that recognize the PRC either recognise the PRC as the legitimate representative of Taiwan or acknowledge the PRC's views on the matter.[2]

The One China policy is also different from the "One China" principle (一個中國原則/一个中国原则), which is the principle that insists both Taiwan and mainland China are inalienable parts of a single "China".[3] A modified form of the "One China" principle known as the 1992 Consensus is the current policy of both the PRC and ROC governments. Under this consensus, both governments agree that there is only one sovereign state encompassing both mainland China and Taiwan, but disagree about which of the two governments is the legitimate government...

One-China policy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The one china principle is agreed between PRC and roc, and one can say it is authoritative since there are some countries that don't recognise one china policy. (Recognise Taiwan). But there is provision in Taiwan constitution some say otherwise on one china principle.

You also get the terms like Governing authorities of Taiwan, autonomous region, special administration region, and even reclamation land on sea to support one china policy and principle.

The Taiwan Relations Act potentially requires the U.S. to intervene militarily if the PRC attacks or invades Taiwan. The act states that "the United States will make available to Taiwan such defense articles and defense services in such quantity as may be necessary to enable Taiwan to maintain a sufficient self-defense capabilities".

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Relations_Act

Some say that if USA control foreign policy of Taiwan (they are providing defence) it would be even more clear and simple.

When people say United Kingdom is the land of unwritten rules and laws and no constitution ...

It's clear and simple.

 

[Free Karma]

India Cancels Media Dialogue With China After Border Stand-Off

An India-China media dialogues scheduled for later this week in Delhi may have become the first casualty due to the border stand-off between the two countries.

The government of India has abruptly withdrawn clearances for Chinese editors who were coming to Delhi this week for a media exchange with Indian journalists, something that takes place every year.

The think tank organising the event says no reason was given and all they got was a one line fax that the clearances had been withdrawn.

"Due to unavoidable complications, we have had to postpone the India-China Media Exchange. We thank you all for agreeing to participate on Sep 24th -- and dinner -- and we will call on your participation again when we hold the event. But for now, it stands cancelled," the organisers told participating Indian journalists. They insist the Chinese editors had their visas in place.

So far, there has been no official comment by the government.

Soldiers of China's People's Liberation Army, who entered Chumur in Ladakh last week, have remained on Indian territory, despite the reported assurance by Chinese President Xi Jinping -who concluded his three-day visit to India on Friday - to Prime Minister Narendra Modi over the issue. PM Modi had taken up the incursions with President Jinping and bluntly stressed on the need to resolve the dispute quickly and clarify the Line of Actual Control (LAC).

Chumur, 300 kilometres north of Ladakh, stands at the intersection of the international border and the Line of Actual Control or the de facto border between the two countries. The Chinese troops allegedly brought in in heavy construction equipment and a large labour force to set up a road up to the border.

The standoff in Chumur worsened on Saturday after a second intrusion by Chinese army personnel in two days was reported at another point after they had withdrawn from the same area.

 

[CCP]

 

[cobra commando]

After border row, India, China plan counter-terror drills to build trust - The Economic Times

 

[sgarg]

As military strength of India grows, there will be mistrust about India's intentions.

As a nation, too few of India's citizens are under arms. I have said elsewhere that an ideal figure for India for people who are at least at infantry level (taught military discipline, can shoot) should be in the region of 10 million.

The active military size is OK and can be even reduced but reserves need to rise several times.

The small available military manpower is a constraint in power projection. Weakness always invites aggression.

India needs to introduce some type of draft where young people join military for 2-3 years. They should be compensated for these years in military service by way of some preference in government service, education grants etc. 2-3 years is no big deal in today's industrial economy. India no longer has a labour shortage.

 

[sgarg]

The biggest problem in dealing with China is the Chinese condescending attitude towards Indians. China keeps on making demands that India cannot agree to, thus defeating the whole purpose of negotiation.

Communication can improve only when China is willing to mellow its attitude. China has never controlled Arunachal Pradesh for example. What Tibet did in Arunachal Pradesh is besides the point. China's claim on Arunachal Pradesh is completely spurious.

Such demands make negotiation meaningless and creates rift between two societies.

Although somebody can dispute India's claim on Arunachal Pradesh too but the fact remains that India has controlled this territory since 1947, and India's claim is quite strong now.

China cannot really stop India from building roads in Arunachal Pradesh. China can bring covert actors but a determined India is unlikely to be cowed down by that.

 

[ghost]

As military strength of India grows, there will be mistrust about India's intentions.

As a nation, too few of India's citizens are under arms. I have said elsewhere that an ideal figure for India for people who are at least at infantry level (taught military discipline, can shoot) should be in the region of 10 million.

The active military size is OK and can be even reduced but reserves need to rise several times.

The small available military manpower is a constraint in power projection. Weakness always invites aggression.

India needs to introduce some type of draft where young people join military for 2-3 years. They should be compensated for these years in military service by way of some preference in government service, education grants etc. 2-3 years is no big deal in today's industrial economy. India no longer has a labour shortage.

Sir,
I have a humble suggestion.

1 All boys and girls after completion of 12th standard ,will go for compulsory military training for 1 year.

2 Under this military training for first 6 months they will be given basic arms and other military tactics training,after complication of 6 months, they will further move into specialization training as per their interest and performance eg demolition,communication,sniper,assault group ,field medics etc etc.


3 After competition of training each will be issued certificate of training,a assault rifle will be issued to everyone ,without ammunition and firing pin,which will be stored in government armory ,and will be issued when they return for yearly boot camps.The responsibility of maintenance and upkeep of rifles will be of it's owner,for any damage to rifle they would be charged for repair.

4 After completion of training for 1 year,everyone will be required to attend a boot camp of 10 days every year.In this boot camp they will practice,and polish their skills and learn new advancement in new tactics.

4 This procedure will continue till the age of 35 ,after which everyone will have to submit assault rifle and other gears issued to them.


The advantages of the following procedure are.

1 At times of war ,we will get a huge number of army that will be not only trained to fight wars ,but to assist in communication,medics and other important fields.We can put are regular trained professional army in fronts while defenses can be handled by these guys at back.

2 In a diverse country like India,this will not only encourage a sense of unity and patriotism as people will be trained together,but also promote religious harmony and spirit of collective strength.This will help in bringing people from all over the country together ,and promote the feeling of India first.This will lead to development of human resources.



3 Beside the above mentioned qualities ,it will instill discipline ,teamwork and leadership qualities in our people.This will help them lot in real life and develop good citizen.

4 Government will have to bear expenditure of the training facility , boot camps , and gear.Hence in a very little price we will get a huge trained and motivated man force. Which can be called upon at times of calamity.Without hefty amount of salaries or pensions.So you will have a great assets at your hand, without huge financial burden.


5 This training will help in our human resource development,this will not only help government and country ,but also the individuals themselves. As they will acquire discipline,decision making,teamwork and various other skill and quality through this.

6 I would like to call this citizen army ,with its own infantry battalions,special forces,medics and communication and others department divided as per the specialty of the people.These will not only supplement regular army at times of need,but add a valuable assets on its own to our nation.They will have their own uniform,logo etc.

 

[nrupatunga]

Reports suggest that amit shah has got an invitation from ccp to visit china.

 

[sgarg]

However I want to make it clear that India must find opportunities for collaboration with China.

I want to see railway connectivity and road connectivity with Western China. as it gives connectivity with Russia too..

Only China can provide safe land connection to Russia which is very important for both Russia and India. The routes through central Asia go through Pakistan or Iran and a number of unstable States.

India has to find a way to live with China peacefully. Efforts should be made constantly in this direction.

However coexisting with China MUST NOT come with giving up land. There is no point in giving up land currently controlled by India.

As I said earlier, cultural and business ties must be strengthened. The dialog must continue even if it is very difficult. The officials of both countries must visit each other frequently.

 

[Free Karma]

[tweet]536751227845869569[/tweet]

"Centre appoints NSA Ajit Doval as special representative for tackling boundary dispute with China."

 

[sgarg]

@ghost, sending each child to military training is not possible.

A voluntary military training - with associated benefits like small advantage in recruitment in government services (both armed and civilian) + educational benefits like waiving of tuition fees at university level will create enough interest in voluntary military training and associated commitment to defence of nation.

 

[ersakthivel]

Vietnam as India’s Pivot | Security Wise

The case that China is India's biggest challenge (not Pakistan that Indians and their government get mightily exercised about) and Vietnam is the pivotal state around which New Delhi can obtain a coalition of Asian rimland and offshore countries to ringfence China was a geostrategic scheme first articulated in my 1994 book "Future Imperilled". So, when the newly founded National Security Advisory Board constituted during Vajpayee's time met with MEA in the autumn of 1998 and I as member of the board, assuming the Indian diplomats were clued into the theories and practice of geopolitics, asked then foreign secretary K Raghunath why India had failed to respond to Beijing's calculated policy of nuclear missile-arming Pakistan over the previous decade with a tit-for-tat gesture and a policy of imposing costs on China, by transferring easily nuclearisable missiles to Vietnam, Raghunath replied with practised certitude. "It is not practicable," he said.

Fast forward 16 years and the impracticable has become Indian policy—the Modi government has decided to pass on the Brahmos missile to Hanoi which, appropriately, finds no mention in the Joint Statement issued by prime ministers Modi and Dung. These anti-ship weapons, for which there's no counter, will be installed in shore batteries along the Vietnamese coast fronting on the Hainan Island, to deter the Chinese South Seas Fleet based there, and as sentinels for that country's offshore claims and oil and gas exploration and drilling assets in the South China Sea, and to dissuade the Chinese navy from capturing disputed sea territories as happened in the case of the Paracel Islands.

The MEA during Manmohan Singh's time turned aside repeated Vietnamese requests for the Brahmos by asserting that the Russian partner company in this project, NPO Maschinostroeyenia was against any such deal. It lost India traction with a strategic partner Indonesia as well, which too had asked for the Brahmos. Denied by New Delhi, Jakarta directly approached Moscow and secured the slightly derated version of the Brahmos, the Ramos. The difference with the onset of the Modi dispensation was that India rather than merely seeking Russian assent for the transfer of this cruise missile to Vietnam pushed for it.

 

[cobra commando]

Le Yucheng wants India to do more for Chinese companies - The Hindu