Chinese Troops Intrude into Indian Territory in Ladakh!!!

[CCTV]

The number one lesson china should learn from 67, Not to attack well prepared dug in enemy..

Even God wont help those bastards stuck inside our land..

What do you mean ' dug ' ?

 

[Immanuel]

hmm I think we should wait and let them come a bit deeper, they seem to have a hurry to build roads, we can drive them away after the roads are built

Saves the BRO and the Govt. a whole lot of money I am actually hoping they come all the way in beyond their perception of LAC so that once the roads are done, we can ***k em up

 

[t_co]

The number one lesson china should learn from 67, Not to attack well prepared dug in enemy..

Even God wont help those bastards stuck inside our land..

Why would China attack in this case? What would China gain?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Flame-baiting and Inviting flame-baiting, Will not be tolerated..

================================

The number one lesson India should have drawn from 1962 is never to let your rhetoric outpace your reality...

Why would China attack in this case? What would China gain?

 

[pmaitra]

Kaul was an incompetent man but was man of honour and accepted his responsibility in clear words.

his being close to Nehru ultimately ruined his name till eternity.

Kaul was a man of honour - Yes.

He accepted his responsibility - No. Au contraire, he took responsibility even when he was incapable, due to his lack of experience, or sickness. He would typically put forward multiple options and let his juniors decide (especially allowing Pathania to call the shots, multiple times). A true general would give strict instructions, and based upon those instructions, he would direct other commanders, and also prepare for contingency. He did quite the opposite. He was giving too many ad hoc decisions, and they were influenced not by the terrain and features of the threatre, but influenced by how less territory the PLA could be yielded to. Also, he forcibly took responsibility when he was utterly incapable, and people did not oppose him, simply because of his connections with Nehru. Also, who, in his right mind, would station troops in a valley? In moutain warfare, you effectively use height to your advantage. Kaul did just the opposite, and even when he had the option of consolidating his troops in the high ridges, he positioned them in a self-created trap. Given that Kaul is a Kashmiri, one would expect more common sense about mountain warfare from him.

 

[ladder]

Border alert in Arunachal - Call for vigil after Ladakh incursion

NISHIT DHOLABHAI

New Delhi, May 3: An alert has been sounded and vigil heightened along the Sino-Indian border, especially in Arunachal Pradesh, after China blocked Indian security forces' access to three of the five patrol points in the Depsang plains in Ladakh.

The entry of Chinese troops into the Depsang plains and assuming control of a vital access route in the strategically important Daulat Beg Oldi area, has prompted anxiety that Beijing might resort to similar moves elsewhere.

"There are two or three areas elsewhere, besides Aksai Chin where there could be challenges. This includes one or two places in Arunachal Pradesh and Sikkim, and one place in Uttarakhand," sources said. "Although we have observed nothing untoward, we are vigilant," a government official said.

Forward areas in Lohit district and northern Lohit are said to be "highly unlikely" to be under threat from Chinese incursions. But Tawang is considered to be "vulnerable".

In case of an incident, strategists are reminded of the Sumdorong Chu incident when the government of India had to lodge a formal protest with Beijing in June 1986 against the latter's intrusions. Largescale troop movement had followed that incident and long-winding diplomatic negotiations became a necessity.

Another area of concern is the Kibithu area in Anjaw district of Arunachal Pradesh, a spot best known for Dong, where the sun rises first in India and the access to patrol parties that India always wants ensured.

New Delhi now believes that signing of the Agreement on the Maintenance of Peace and Tranquillity along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) on the Sino-Indian border during Prime Minister Narasimha Rao's visit in 1993 "reflected the growing stability and substance in bilateral ties".

The latest face-off in eastern Ladakh, although on a much lower scale, is not being taken lightly by the men on the ground.

Sources in the security forces said contrary to reports that patrolling has stopped in eastern Ladakh, patrol plans and patterns keep changing and the same is true for the Northeast as well.

"Advisories have been sent (for heightened vigil)," said a source, adding that an incident in Ladakh is not seen to have a bearing directly on security scenario in Arunachal Pradesh or Sikkim.

The sources said the situation in Dibang and Lower Dibang valley areas was not as "vulnerable" because of the treacherous terrain.

Border alert in Arunachal

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Lions led by sheep..

 

[pmaitra]

Border alert in Arunachal

Right to the east of Bhutan, in Northern Arunachal Pradesh, lies some really vulnerable points. There are massive plateaux, and PRC has built roads right upto several points from where they can look over the lower peaks in India, and also bring in howitzers and tanks in a very short notice. India needs to be very careful, but also, it is time to raise a few divisions of civil defense and keep them right behind the military divisions, so that they can be used in road/fortification building projects everytime the IA gains territory.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[arnabmit]

Eye on China, India holds talks with US, Japan

The United States, India, and Japan held their fourth trilateral dialogue here on Wednesday, discussing among other issues, greater security cooperation at a time all three countries are facing what they perceive to be an increasingly belligerent China.

The previously scheduled engagement, not directly linked to the ongoing border and maritime spat India and Japan respectively are having with China, is part of the growing security and economic dialogue between the three countries. It is also in tune with Washington's Asian pivot aimed at shoring up its Asia-Pacific alliances in the face of Beijing's growing assertiveness. Although India is not a formal US ally, it has signed up for the dialogue that goes beyond security cooperation.

A boilerplate statement from the state department said the United States hosted Japan and India for their fourth trilateral dialogue, "exchanging views on a wide range of regional and global issues of mutual interest." This discussion, it said, was co-chaired by Assistant Secretary of State for South and Central Asia Robert Blake and Acting Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for East Asia and Pacific Affairs James Zumwalt.

The Indian delegation was headed by external affairs ministry joint secretaries D B Venkatesh Varma and Vikram Doraiswami and Japanese delegation was headed by deputy vice-foreign minister for foreign policy Kenji Hiramatsu and deputy director-general Kanji Yamanouchi.

Ribbed by journalists to spare them anodyne statements, the state department later expanded the statement to say the "discussions focused on the prospect of greater Indo-Pacific commercial connectivity and regional and maritime security, and cooperation in multilateral fora." All sides welcomed the frank and comprehensive nature of the discussions and agreed the talks help advance shared values and interests, it added.

The group agreed to meet again in the fall in Tokyo to continue their deliberations.

The Obama administration incidentally has noted the ongoing border row between India and China, and expressed hope that the two sides would resolve the issue amicably.

The US-India-Japan trilateral began in 2011 as part of Washington's endeavor to start "mini-laterals" in Asia to circumvent any possible disagreement that a larger multi-lateral could engender, given the dissonance between various middling powers in the region on how to deal with China. The USInJa grew out of separate East Asia specific bilateral that Washington initiated with New Delhi in 2009 after President Bush pledged to support India's rise as a global player with the unspoken aim of countering China. The US also has a separate trilateral involving Japan and Australia.

All countries are leery of China's rise, but India alone among the players has refused to sign on to an alliance with Washington, believing it has to live harmoniously with its giant neighbor. For the record though, both Washington and New Delhi have said their East Asia engagement is not directed at Beijing. In fact, Washington has also tried to initiate a US-China-India trilateral but Beijing has not responded to the idea.

Growing mistrust of China in the region is expected to further spur multilateral initiatives in the region.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The way things are heading seems this Government want another Indian defeat, They are intentionally letting the guard down and provoking the enemy more..

I am not political but is this a intentional step to divert public attention from coming elections ?

There is not a single politician or representative over the hot zone..

 

[CCTV]

The way things are heading seems this Government want another Indian defeat, They are intentionally letting the guard down and provoking the enemy more..

I am not political but is this a intentional step to divert public attention from coming elections ?

There is not a single politician or representative over the hot zone..

You worried too much bro.
politicians are payed to take care of their countries, we should trust them as we trust our bus drivers.

 

[roma]

Atop the peaks, Lowest in winter: approx -40 degrees Highest in summer: approx -10 degrees

guys guys when i graduated after first degree i was considering spending a year with the antarctic survey - there men and women spend at least the summers continuous for a few months uninterrupted and you know the "summer" temps there are re -28 deg C ( ref Antarctica Facts, index and look under the climate heading ) - if we women can do it .......... you know the rest

secondly look up oymyakon the coldest continuously inhabiited town on earth in the russian sakha region with a poplation of aabout 470 people with a bus transport system and schools ......temps can go to -72 deg C ...-40 is very common and schools close only when the temp drops below -42 deg which happens every so often

now you re telling me that professional border guards leave their posts in arunachal and ladakh when the weather gets too clod and they return to find chinese occupying the positions ?? !!!!!!!

THIS IS A FUNDAMENTAL COMMUNICATIONS-BASED DISCONNECT that is now working against India. For instance, while the Senior Colonel (a political commissar) representing the PLA contingent at the Flag Meetings over the past two weeks freely and openly raised political issues, his Indian counterpart, an IA Brigadier, was aghast and speechless simply because he had never been exposed to such negotiating tactics and procedures anywhere else within India. What the PLA's Senior Colonel said was that despite China's repeated requests for the past two years at the highest levels (i.e. Defence Minister-level) to India to conclude a comprehensive package of CBMs dealing directly with a freezing of military force-levels on both sides, China's Ministry of National Defence (MND) is of the view that India not only continues to drag its feet regarding progress on such issues, but is also undertaking hectic military force expansion activities all along the LAC for no meaningful reason, and that too at a time when China has never undertaken any such India-specific military activity.

china is very good at claiming they wanted this clarification and that from the goi - they are very good at becoming technical when they want
but when they ir president signs and accord - it aint worth toilet paper ......further more the spirit of the agreements peace - who keeps breaking the peace


someone wrote quite rightly that is is lions being led by sheep .......somehow i feel there is also a donkey somewhere in the line connecting the two

the IA used to patrol and occupy the areas up to 2010 but after that they were pulled back ? what kind of policy-making is that - sop they invited the dragon in ?
the is looking more and more like 1962 revisited

there are now only two options left ...1) a limited war
2) india surrenders the territory without a war

either way if india loses territory , the electorate might decide to take govt away from the upa ?

 

[pmaitra]

I don't see this as much from a political angle, as much as I see it as circumstances, in a way,that whoever were in power, this would have the case, anyway!

• Not Enough: India has been taking steps to improve infrastructure in the contentious regions, but given Indian system, it is not possible to quickly build infrastructure, because a democratic setup, and qualition politics, dilutes consensus on where India needs to invest more. PRC has an authoritarian government, and they can get people to do whatever they want in a very short notice. India cannot do that.
• Terrain: Thereafter, comes terrain. Indian access to parts of J&K and AP, is limited. Road building projects are delayed. There are not enough roads, and most roads are narrow, or resemble a road subjected to mortar attacks.
• Short-Sightedness: India also does not plan in the long term. Politicians are more about getting short term advantages. There is lack of consolidation of opinion across India. Most people are out of touch of ground realities, or are totally deluded.
• Unrealistic Expectations: The Indian Mililtary RFCs are often unrealistic. They expect a tank to perform like a heavy tank, but also expect it to weight like a light tank. They issue RFCs, but fail to improve infrastructure on which it will be transported. It is like expecting a mobile phone than can be hidden in the palm of a hand, and at the same time, must have a 21" screen, and a battery life of 72 hours.
• Defense is a Duty, not a Business: The Indian Army has been rather uncooperative in the past decade or so, in encouraging home grown defense industries. There is too much stress on following the procedures of testing and certification before some hardware is inducted. Foreign countries, however, induct their weapons, even before they are fully tested, because, it helps keep manufacturing and development costs justifiable. The Indian Army has gone on a spree to include a massive variety of weapons systems, making it a major hodge-podge, which will create a logistic nightmare, and further inhibit a quick reaction to external threats. In my personal opinion, for example, I fail to see a good justification why India needs yet another type of round, in between 7.62 mm and 5.56 mm.
• Red-Tapism and Corruption: Too much thought is spent on clearing weapons acquisition projects. Requirements are modified to suit a particular supplier, not what the country needs. Too much reliance on middlemen, and the constant fear of getting caught up in a scam. Politicians are in politics to make a personal fortune, and not to serve the country.

 

[roma]

The biggest mistake India made in 1962 in NEFA sector was stationing troops in the valleys.

such idiocy is just unbelievable !

Lions led by sheep..

hmmmmmm i also feel there is a lot of room for donkeys as well !

The way things are heading seems this Government want another Indian defeat, They are intentionally letting the guard down and provoking the enemy more.. I am not political but is this a intentional step to divert public attention from coming elections ?
There is not a single politician or representative over the hot zone..

that is a very deep insight sir , which i humbly have to admit caught me totally unawares - you have raised a superb point there

 

[pmaitra]

someone wrote quite rightly that is is lions being led by sheep .......somehow i feel there is also a donkey somewhere in the line connecting the two

the IA used to patrol and occupy the areas up to 2010 but after that they were pulled back ? what kind of policy-making is that - sop they invited the dragon in ?
the is looking more and more like 1962 revisited

there are now only two options left ...1) a limited war
2) india surrenders the territory without a war

either way if india loses territory , the electorate might decide to take govt away from the upa ?

We don't need lions, frankly. Lions end up like Porus. We need good thinkers.

Chest thumping and brow-beating should be restricted to Bollywood.

PRC enjoys a position of strength, today, because they have continuously built upon their ruins, and secured the borders, instead of lecturing the world on moral values. India won her independence through prayer and petition, while PRC won her's through revolution and wars, that too after suffering massive casualties. PRC is a Phoenix that rose from the ashes. India was far better poised to be where PRC is, but India's hybrid-system, which was supposed to bring in the good qualities from a centralized communist government and a free democratic government, ended up in introducing the bad things of both as well. On top of that, Indians are obsessed with being 'peaceful' and 'hoping' and 'praying.'

However, coming back to the point of what India should do now?

Either, India should let this freeze in a stalemate, or India should whole heartedly fight PRC, and give them a quick solid sucker punch, and offer ceasefire, withdraw, and restore status quo ante. This will prevent future provocation from PRC, and give more time for India to recuperate, and build up its defenses. There is no way, and I repeat, there is no way India can gain extra territory with PRC. As a matter of fact, India cannot even do that with Pakistan. Whatever India does, if it is half-hearted, it will not work.

This is the time to listen to all the conflicting voices, but once a decision is made, all should stand by it, even those who disagreed.

 

[roma]

if we look even at the relief map as a simple example:- Creating Annotated Relief Maps of Ancient China besides others, we can easily see that there is a much better route for a road higher up in latitude, which can connect xinjiang with tibet and also go almost in a straight line to the east coast of china in a relatively low level altitude, all in their own territory ....otoh the road via aksai is a v high altitude alternative comparatively

so the point they made for needing the road thru aksai is pure BS ! ....... it is a limiting claim to thwart Indian geopolitical dreams northward and in central asia

@roma,

Perhaps when you get time, please take a snapshot from Google Maps and draw out the road you are talking about. It'll give me a better idea.

actually a stay in mom using her teenage kids relief map could figure it out but apparently the whole media crcus espscially in the west has withut even doing the most primitive study has been repeating parrotlike what ccp has asked or told them to - that they need the road to connect tibet to xinjiang

it is total nonsense ...here is the inland road shown byt the thick red line - it goes from the extrem weterly point in xinjiang right in a straight line to the east china sea coast and nowhere along that line does it ever cross the brown colored region which is the highest relief contour

....the url is ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

on the same map i have drawn a short white line line showing their road which they have built in aksai ....it is totally on the highest terr rain as shown by the legend describing the heights - so those PLA must be laughing at the whole world in falling for their lies ...err white lies ?

ive also drawn two thick yellow line ...one at the aksai region ....if you notice that line actually indicates a line of opportunity for india to cross into the plateau of tibet ...it is where the high mountain walls are at its smallest width ...so the PLA have pre-empted an indian attempt to cross into tibet - not that we wanted to

secondly a second yellow line showing a similar opportunity at the far south-eastern tip of arunachal is the second thinnest area where the very high land crosses into the tibetan plateau - but the thickness there is quite large and especially in comparison to the thin wedge at aksai

so we can see another reason why PLA wanted to dominate this are ---- to pre-empt any of even the slightest possibility of IA crossing over

like i said even a schoolboy ........ but we keep saying they wanted it for the road ...ahahahahahhahah

like virendra often signs off with best regards, i'd say all the best , we really need it with the kind of leadership we seem to be having

 

[roma]

the correct url for the relief map showing the roads and all ive descriibed above is
ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

( somehow when i wanted to edit the earlier message i just get a blank ?)

 

[pmaitra]

the correct url for the relief map showing the roads and all ive descriibed above is
ImageShack� - Online Photo and Video Hosting

( somehow when i wanted to edit the earlier message i just get a blank ?)

I see what you are saying.

That red line does not connect Tibet with East Turkestan.

The brown region represents the Tibetan Plateau, and represents a range on 8,200 to 18,000 feet. It is a big range, and one needs to look at the finer details of only the plateau. All of the plateau is not 18,000+ feet. If you see the terrain in Google Maps, you would see why PRC wants to keep Aksai Chin and the highway through it.