Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

If Tanks have to evolve, which path they should follow?

  • Light Vehicles-Best for mobility

    Votes: 25 7.4%
  • Heavy Armour-Can take heavy punishment.

    Votes: 57 16.8%
  • Modular Design-Allowing dynamic adaptions.

    Votes: 198 58.2%
  • Universal Platform-Best for logistics.

    Votes: 60 17.6%

  • Total voters
    340

Kunal Biswas

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The Arjun price tag of Rs 16 Crore is a 2005 figure, not the latest 2010 figure and it was unit costs. The T-90 price tag was for an operational tank in 2008 and was the program cost.

Latest figure is same as it was in 2005 as their are no upgrades to the tank, However, it is important to know that MBT Arjun had a cost of Rs 17.20 crore per system from the production line
http://frontierindia.net/indian-mod-outlines-roadmap-for-mbt-arjun-mark-ii-in-pipeline

The cost of each T-90 for the Russian budget was estimated to be around 35mln RUB (USD1.3mln at the time) in 2005 and is quickly growing (ostensibly mostly due to the big increases in the costs of raw materials). In 2006 the price was 42mln RUB (USD1.6mln at the time) and in 2007 - already 58mln RUB (USD2.3mln at the time)

http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/MBT/t-90.html
Which also effected on export models like Indian T-90S, Each T-90S cost more than +2.3 million..

The Arjun price tag was for a tank with just chassis, engine and tracks, also FCS. It did not take into consideration cost of ammo, spares and cost of communication equipment and some other electronics like Night Vision.
Arjun use thermal not NV, and its included with turret, gun, ammo too..
Besides Arjun and T-90/72 use DRDO made rounds..
Above note also clarify the same thing..
http://frontierindia.net/indian-mod-outlines-roadmap-for-mbt-arjun-mark-ii-in-pipeline
 
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Singh

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T-90"M", the one Indian Army will be acquiring, will have Kanchan inserts, LEds-150 APS, NG Kaktus ERA, NG FCS, better autoloader, BMS, improved gun and ability to fire NG Russian rounds including DU rounds iirc and there are quite a few other foreign and domestic subsystems; basically it will be one of the, if not the best tank in the world. Hope Zraver turns up and adds his 2 cents to this discussion.
Arjun in its present configuration is an excellent tank and quite capable of decimating Chinese and Pakistani armour but is no match for the T-90M beast that we are acquiring.

PS: Are we adding sunk costs of Arjun into the calculation ? and the cost in time delays ?
 

san

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T-90"M", the one Indian Army will be acquiring, will have Kanchan inserts, LEds-150 APS, NG Kaktus ERA, NG FCS, better autoloader, BMS, improved gun and ability to fire NG Russian rounds including DU rounds iirc and there are quite a few other foreign and domestic subsystems; basically it will be one of the, if not the best tank in the world. Hope Zraver turns up and adds his 2 cents to this discussion.
Arjun in its present configuration is an excellent tank and quite capable of decimating Chinese and Pakistani armour but is no match for the T-90M beast that we are acquiring.

PS: Are we adding sunk costs of Arjun into the calculation ? and the cost in time delays ?
How can you know Arjun is not match with T90M. Russians has told you that. Some corrupt armywalla also have said it with T90S. Then what had happned? How many T90M Russian army planning to acquire , 200.
 

Kunal Biswas

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T-90"M", the one Indian Army will be acquiring, will have LEds-150 APS, NG Kaktus ERA, NG FCS, better autoloader, BMS, improved gun and ability to fire NG Russian rounds including DU rounds iirc and there are quite a few other foreign and domestic subsystems; basically it will be one of the, if not the best tank in the world. Hope Zraver turns up and adds his 2 cents to this discussion.
T-90M recent configuration is ERA 'Relict' not Kaktus.
T-90S even T-72 have NG FCS.
T-90M gun is same as T-90S that is 52CAL 2A46M5..
Their is no DU round for export..

After all its all the same T-90M with turret basket and Relict ERA..

Arjun in its present configuration is an excellent tank and quite capable of decimating Chinese and Pakistani armour but is no match for the T-90M beast that we are acquiring.
T-90S/M have only advantage is the heavy era, and rest is no match for Arjun`s mobility and firepower..


Armored..
The following information is at-least 6-7 years old, Today's Arjuns are much better and updated with ERA, therefore its Armour will enhance and protection and it will be more Armored than T-90S..

Arjun:
Turret: 500-570mm RHAe, Glacis: 410mm RHAe vs. APFSDS, ( WITHOUT ERA )
Turret: 650-830mm RHAe, Glacis: 730mm RHAe vs, HEAT. ( WITHOUT ERA )

T-90S:
Turret: vs APFSDS: 550 mm Glacis: 250-280mm ( WITHOUT ERA )
Turret: vs HEAT: 650 mm Glacis: 500-700mm ( WITHOUT ERA )

T-90S:
Turret: vs APFSDS: 550 mm Glacis: 250-280mm ( with Kontakt-5 ) = 800-830mm
Turret: vs HEAT: 650 mm Glacis: 500-700mm ( with Kontakt-5 )= 1,150-1,350mm


This is the time when the Russian Tank T-72 imported by Indian Army could not penetrate the Kanchan Armor protected Arjun Tank , with APFDS at point blank range. Subsequently, the debate took place if the Russians had supplied us with training rounds rather than the actual ammunition. As a side note, in January 2000 at Proof & Experimental Establishment (PXE), Balasore, Arjun tank armor defeated all available HESH and FSAPDS rounds including Israeli FSAPDS rounds.

Kanchan armor composition has undergone massive changes since 1980's. The volume of the RHA has been reduced to lesser mass because of better metallurgy. The composite has evolved too and it does not use the 1980's technology anymore.

Fire Power:
Arjun:
The rifled 120 mm can fire high velocity rounds.

DRDO rounds can archive 1680m/s muzzle velocity
Foreign Rounds Like,The German design DM-43 with special Sabot specially modified for Arjun 120mm cannon, DM-43 can Archive 1780m/s muzzle velocity.

This Information is being discussed with some of my close friends during DEFEXPO 2010.
btw, their is no information abt this on net or any official site..


Also Arjun can fire LAHAT Antitank missile which have a range of 6km, most importantly it strike enemy tank from the top ( High kill rate )!


Indian T-90S:
125mm smoothbore gun fires high velocity rounds.
3VBM8/3BM17/18, An export version of the 3BM-15 without the tungsten carbide plug ( Degraded rounds )

DRDO 125mm round can archive 1680m/s ( Same round use by Arjun but modified for 120mm rifled bore )

Can fire 9M119M Refleks or 9M119 Svir at range of 75-5000 m
http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/ARM/refleks.html


Mobality:
Arjun: Is equipped with 1400hp engines and can run 70km on roads and 40km on off-roads also the ground pressure is better which is 0.84 kg/sq. cm.
T-90s: Is equipped with 1,000 hp engine and can run 70km on roads and 40km on off-roads ground pressure is 0.91 kg/sq.cm
In case of 'M' Its powered by 1200hp engine which have no effect on ground pressure also the new ERA increase the protection, and all the other details remain the same..
 
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san

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T90S engine cannot produced 1,000 hp in thar summer. It is around 850 hp in summer. I heard as per OEM is it is somewhere near to 850 hp not 1000 hp as mentioned.
 

Kunal Biswas

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T90S engine cannot produced 1,000 hp in thar summer. It is around 850 hp in summer. I heard as per OEM is it is somewhere near to 850 hp not 1000 hp as mentioned.
The present T90s with Indian army are equipped with 1000hp engines..
 

p2prada

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Disadvantages of Arjun compared to the T-90M.

Bigger
Weak armour
Weak gun
Expensive to maintain and operate

Advantages

Indigenous
Mobility
Targeting
DRDO ammo

I know which to choose.
 

SHASH2K2

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Disadvantages of Arjun compared to the T-90M.

Bigger
Weak armour
Weak gun
Expensive to maintain and operate

Advantages

Indigenous
Mobility
Targeting
DRDO ammo

I know which to choose.
I am sure its Arjun but I have a doubt about armour. I thought armour of Arjun is better than T 90.
 

Kunal Biswas

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I am sure its Arjun but I have a doubt about armour. I thought armour of Arjun is better than T 90.
Disadvantages of Arjun compared to the T-90M.

Bigger
Weak armour
Weak gun
Expensive to maintain and operate

Advantages

Indigenous
Mobility
Targeting
DRDO ammo

I know which to choose.
Strange, i have given all the specifications and comparison on the same page still i get such comments!
 

bhramos

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Strange, i have given all the specifications and comparison on the same page still i get such comments!
dont worry bhai, most of the members are young and hot blood, they are too fast to catch up.
well comapered to T-90 and Arjun each is best in its ring and features, so what ever the army personal feel about their tanks, the final is Indian Govt. it does only what it thinks,
 

Singh

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@san you are damn rude.


How can you know Arjun is not match with T90M.
Russians has told you that.
Some corrupt armywalla also have said it with T90S.
Then what had happned? How many T90M Russian army planning to acquire , 200.
Specs and expert opinion of others.
No.
Calling anyone who is pro T90 in the Army is corrupt ? that is an original argument
The T-90s we are acquiring henceforth will be the upgraded ones so they ought to be in thousands.

T-90M is amongst the very best in the world, even Russia will never get as good a version of this tank so why are you sad ?

--

@Kunal Biswas - I believe you claim to be in the armed forces hence the title ?
Lots of folks in here are related to the army; and I have on record statements by a General (recently retired) who said that the Army prefers T90 to Arjun.
 

ajtr

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Delete if already posted.....

Tank Trouble


Manu Pubby[/b]
Posted online: Thu June 17 2010, 01:31 hrs

New Delhi : More than 30 years after the project was conceptualised, the Indian Army will finally have a sizeable number of the indigenously developed Arjun tanks in its inventory. With the order for 124 additional tanks finalised by the government, the Army will have close to 250 Arjun MKI tanks in its mechanised forces over the next few years as the Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment ramps up production.
The Army, on its part, is looking forward to the Arjun MK II, an improved, new, next generation tank that will meet its future requirements. The project to develop the newer version of the tank was approved by the government last month on the recommendation of the Rama Rao Committee and on the insistence of successive top Army officers. The Arjun's excessive dependence on foreign equipment — the engine, gun control system and gunner's main sight are all imported — has come under criticism and DRDO wants to bring down the foreign components from 60 per cent to 30 per cent.

A JITTERY START

While the project seems to have got some respite after the Army turned around from its initial stance that the order book would be frozen at 124 to make way for a new generation tank, it has been fraught with setbacks, delays and cost overruns since being sanctioned in May 1974. DRDO was allotted Rs 15.50 crore to develop the tank within 10 years. However, the first prototype rolled out only by 1983. The project suffered repeated delays and deadlines and costs were revised on three occasions — 1980, 1987 and 2000.

When the project was officially closed by DRDO in 1996, its cost stood at Rs 306 crore. The first of the 14 pre- production versions of the tanks were handed over to the Army for trials in 2005 but they failed to satisfy. The real saga of the Arjun began post-2005 after DRDO started to aggressively push for large orders of the tank by the Army.

TRIAL FAILURES

From 2005 till the present, when the order book stands at close to 250, a series of critical reports and observations by experts have haunted the tank. Over the years, the tank failed to impress the Army, which kept pressing for improvements and modifications in order to make it combat-worthy. The tank's dismal performance in the trials carried out in 2006 was of particular concern to the Army.

In its trial report, the Army reported problems with the laser range finder of the gunners main sight and the piston rods of the suspension system. One of the Army's major concerns was the tank's fuel efficiency and its trial report said that the "high fuel consumption was evident during the validation trials in June 2006". Defence Minister A K Antony, who had been pushing for early induction of the tanks in the Army, too had to concede that problems remained. "Some more problems are there but I am hopeful that we will be able to remove that," he said after the report was made public.

After months another batch of the improved tanks were handed over for trials in 2007-08. Again, this round of trials ended in disappointment.

After the tank failed to clear a round of winter trials, the then Army chief General Deepak Kapoor wrote to Antony saying that a "lot of improvements" are needed before the tank can be cleared for bulk intake. The letter had its roots in the five months of Accelerated Usage cum Reliability Trials in Rajasthan in which two Arjun tanks were tested by the Army. The tanks suffered engine failures on four separate occasions after being put through only 1,000 km of trials.

'NEED A NEW TANK'

An Army report in April 2008 said: "The tanks have performed very poorly. There have been four engine failures so far. The tanks have done about 1,000 km each. There is a problem". A parliamentary panel monitoring the Arjun project then called for immediate modifications in the tank. "The causes for failure of the tank should be identified without loss of time and necessary modifications carried out at the earliest so that the tank becomes acceptable to the Army," the panel said, adding it was "startled" over the poor performance.

A month later, in May 2008, the Defence Ministry too conceded that the tank was suffering engine failures and did not even manage to fire straight during the trials. Admitting its poor performance during the trials, the Ministry said five major faults, including low-firing accuracy, have been identified in the indigenous tank. Listing the problem areas, the then Minister of State, Defence, Rao Inderjit Singh informed Parliament that the tank had "low accuracy and consistency", chipped its gun barrels while firing live rounds at the Accelerated Usage cum Reliability Trials and suffered a failure of the hydro pneumatic suspension units.

The dismal performance prompted the Army to tell DRDO that the tank should be treated as a technology demonstrator and a platform to work on a totally new tank design for the future. Months after retiring as the Director General of Mechanised Forces at Army HQ in 2008, Lt Gen K D S Shekhawat told The Indian Express that it was time for a new next generation tank. "After 30 years, the Arjun has not fructified and now we need to start with a new design and a new tank. We have always said that a next (generation) tank has to come out in due course of time. We now have a base and expertise to start on the futuristic tank," he said.

It finally took the Rama Rao Committee, which was instituted to suggest a revamp plan for DRDO, to give a clear direction for the tank. The report said that the main reason for the repeated delays on the project was the over-optimism of developers who underestimated the time needed for making weapon systems. "Too much time and effort was spent in developing an engine for the tank without meeting success. DRDO looked at outsourcing turret control systems only in the mid-eighties after failing to develop it in-house. Inexperienced and overoptimistic developers underestimated the time required. The tank suffered from poor product quality and sub-optimal performance during development, testing and production stage," said the report. "DRDO should immediately start work on a MK II version of the tank to meet requirements of the Army". It also said advanced versions should be built on a "joint development model and foreign collaborators should be roped in to gain expertise".

After repeated improvements, the first regiment of the Arjun — 124 had been originally ordered at the start of the project — was officially inducted into the Army in May 2009. The first armoured regiment of 45 tanks was inducted symbolically on the day Antony took charge in his second term as the Defence Minister.

The decision to induct the regiment came after DRDO carried out major modifications to suit the Army's needs. A major improvement was modifications in the transmission by its German manufacturer, Renk. The failure of the transmission had been identified by DRDO as the main reason for the repeated engine failures during the trials. Improvements were also carried out on the suspension system.

THE ARJUN VS T-90 DEBATE

Since the first induction, there was immense pressure from the DRDO on the Army to conduct comparative trials between the Arjun tank and the T 90 MBT. However, the unfairness of comparing two different tanks rankled experts both within and outside the military establishment.

With adequate pressure from the ministry, the trials were carried out earlier this year but reluctantly, as the huge difference in the class of the two tanks did not leave much scope for comparison. The biggest difference is the weight. At 58.5 tons, the Arjun is more than 10 tons heavier than the T 90. The added weight and size gives it several advantages over the Russian machine in terms of more armour, greater capability to carry ammunition as well as extra sensors.

DRDO on its part said at that time that there is "room for both tanks" in the Army's inventory and the trials were carried out to find a role for the Arjun tank in the Army. While the report has not yet been made public, the DRDO officials have said the trials were successful and the Arjun's performance has been satisfactory for the Army. After more than 10 years of trials and improvements, the tank was finally found fit for limited induction.

The additional order for 124 more tanks is being seen as a victory of sorts for the Arjun but after more than three decades in development. The Arjun is the smallest part of the Indian tank fleet, well behind the T 90 and T 72 tanks that make up the armoured backbone of the Army. This is still a far cry from the concept behind the development of an indigenous Arjun tank. The whole idea was to develop the Arjun as the Army's main battle tank to reduce dependence on imports. However, the frequent delays in the project appears to have given the Armed Forces a tank that will only be produced in limited numbers and is likely to get outdated after just a decade of service.

While DRDO is pushing for larger orders of the Arjun to justify developmental costs, the Army is constrained by the fact that it has already ordered sizeable number of the T 90 tanks to fulfill current requirements. Experts say it takes several years to train and optimise crews and tactics for a new class of tanks. Interestingly, while creating new infrastructure and training personnel means extra finances, the Army also finds it hard to justify the cost of the Arjun tank that comes close to Rs 17 crore per piece. On the other hand, the ready-to-use, battle-hardy and in-production T 90 tank costs the Army around Rs 13 crore per tank. And, this cost would go down progressively as the Avadi Ordnance Factory churns out T 90s in larger numbers.

The mainstay battle tank of the Army is the T 90 that was first ordered from Russia in 2001. The Army has placed orders for 660 T 90s from Russia to replace the ageing fleet of T 72s. The orders were placed again in 2007 after it became clear that the Arjun was not even close to induction. In addition, over 1000 T 90s will be manufactured at the Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory. Given Arjun's slow progress, the Army has also decided to upgrade 650 of the older T 72s.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FIREPOWER

The tank has a 120 mm calibre rifled gun that fires indigenously developed Fin Stabilised Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot (FSAPDS) ammunition. It has a German-origin computer-controlled fire control system with an all-weather sighting system. The DRDO says that this gives the Arjun a "very high first round hit probability and reduced reaction time".

Main Armament

The rifled 120 mm gun is the main fire power of the tank that is designed to beat the armour used by contemporary tanks. While the tank cannot fire missiles from the gun like the one atop the T 90 tank, DRDO says that the capability has been demonstrated and can be incorporated if required.


Secondary Armament

The Arjun has a co-axial 7.62 mm machine gun for an anti-personnel role and a 12.7 mm machine gun for anti-aircraft and ground targets, similar to the T 90 Main Battle Tank (MBT).


Gunner's Main Sight

The Delft-SAGEM Gunner's Main Sight that has been imported from Belgium, has all weather, day-night capability. The thermal imager gives the gunner night vision and also the ability to engage targets even in the presence of haze, dust or smoke.


Panoramic Sight

The tank commander has a "panoramic sight" that gives him an "all round surveillance" capability. Without removing eyes from the sight and despite the turret motion, a stable a view of the environment is available. This view can also be magnified if the need arises.


Ammunition

The Arjun is being equipped with two types of ammunition, the FSAPDS ammunition is the main battle ammunition of the tank and has performed satisfactorily in trials. The tank will also have High Explosive Squash Head (HESH) ammunition. DRDO is also developing an anti-helicopter round to combat aerial threats.


MOBILITY

One of the major systems imported for the Arjun is the power plant provided by German company MTU. The transmission has been imported from German company Renk. The tracks are being manufactured by Larsen and Toubro but are again of German origin.

The Arjun has come under criticism for the hydro-pneumatic suspension. While the new generation suspension makes the tank a very stable platform for firing , the system requires high maintenance and is prone to failures.


PROTECTION

The main feature of the protection system is the indigenously developed Kanchan armour. The developer claims that the armour gives the tank much better protection than current Russian origin tanks in the Army's inventory. In its trials in 2000, the armour withstood a direct hit from a T 72 tank at point blank range. Newer versions of the tank may be equipped with a new reactive armour under development by the DRDO
 
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Singh

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T-90M recent configuration is ERA 'Relict' not Kaktus.
T-90S even T-72 have NG FCS.
T-90M gun is same as T-90S that is 52CAL 2A46M5..
Their is no DU round for export..
There are 2 T-90Ms one is T-90M made by Russia for export and one is T-90M which is an upgraded T-90S already in the Indian service. The T-90M with India is what we are interested in and it is the one I am talking about and for which this thread was begun.

1. T-90M will have Kaktus ERA and Kanchan armour inserts.
2. You are correct but the new FCS is again an upgraded one of the current hybrid FCS
3. As I said T-90M's gun is improved not different.
4. Regardless T-90M can fire DU rounds whilst Arjun can't.

T-90S/M have only advantage is the heavy era, and rest is no match for Arjun`s mobility and firepower..
That will entail that T-90 M will survive shaped charges and Arjun will be found lacking here. T-90M will fire the whole gamut of Russian Shells and lets not even talk about hte kind of shells Arjun will be firing. And Lets not forget T-90M will be having APS too.
 

Singh

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Disadvantages of Arjun compared to the T-90M.

Bigger
Weak armour
Weak gun
Expensive to maintain and operate

Advantages

Indigenous
Mobility
Targeting
DRDO ammo

I know which to choose.
T90M will be incorporating Kanchan armour in place of Russian ceramic armour.
 

Singh

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I am sure its Arjun but I have a doubt about armour. I thought armour of Arjun is better than T 90.
Yes Arjun's armour is better than the legacy T-90/T-72 armour when it comes to a certain type of tank rounds but T90M with NG ERA and Arjun Armour inserts is a totally different ballgame.
 

Kunal Biswas

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There are 2 T-90Ms one is T-90M made by Russia for export and one is T-90M which is an upgraded T-90S already in the Indian service. The T-90M with India is what we are interested in and it is the one I am talking about and for which this thread was begun.

1. T-90M will have Kaktus ERA and Kanchan armour inserts.
2. You are correct but the new FCS is again an upgraded one of the current hybrid FCS
3. As I said T-90M's gun is improved not different.
4. Regardless T-90M can fire DU rounds whilst Arjun can't.
Their is only one T-90M and the same one is form of export model, In case of India we have done enormous changes in the tank..
1. I agree abt Kanchan Armour inserted in-place of Russian module, But the Kakatus is a old story and not updated since, Recent show model is T-90M and it will be 'Relict' and report say specifically it will be for the export purpose mainly.
http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php/208-India-s-Born-Again-T-90M-MBT/page9

2. We will see..

3. It may be improved but it will fire Russian rounds and exported are usually degraded ones..

4. India hardly import rounds, The rounds are usually Indians,
Even T-90M gets DU/ TUNGSTEN its Muzzle-velocity is below 1700m/s, Where as Arjun will be using the most sofisticated Round avaliable in europe that is 'DM-43' which have muzzle velocity of 1780m/s..
Previously explained in my post..

Foreign Rounds Like,The German design DM-43 with special Sabot specially modified for Arjun 120mm cannon, DM-43 can Archive 1780m/s muzzle velocity.

That will entail that T-90 M will survive shaped charges and Arjun will be found lacking here. T-90M will fire the whole gamut of Russian Shells and lets not even talk about hte kind of shells Arjun will be firing. And Lets not forget T-90M will be having APS too
@Singh,
Read my earlier post, I have given you figures..

Arjun:
Turret: 500-570mm RHAe, Glacis: 410mm RHAe vs. APFSDS, ( WITHOUT ERA )
Turret: 650-830mm RHAe, Glacis: 730mm RHAe vs, HEAT. ( WITHOUT ERA )

T-90S:
Turret: vs APFSDS: 550 mm Glacis: 250-280mm ( WITHOUT ERA )
Turret: vs HEAT: 650 mm Glacis: 500-700mm ( WITHOUT ERA )
Also u the shell used by India in every Tank is DRDO made APFDS which have high velocity of 1680 m/s that u hate to talk about is same as American Silver round..
Indian Army use Indigenous shell over Russian shell in tanks, if u have doubt u can ask any armored officer ..
Pls read my post before commenting this.
Arjun:
The rifled 120 mm can fire high velocity rounds.
DRDO rounds can archive 1680m/s muzzle velocity

Indian T-90S:
125mm smoothbore gun fires high velocity rounds.
3VBM8/3BM17/18, An export version of the 3BM-15 without the tungsten carbide plug ( Degraded rounds )

DRDO 125mm round can archive 1680m/s ( Same round use by Arjun but modified for 120mm rifled bore )
T-90M will have a APS which will be Hard kill defensive suit LEDS-150 active protection system (APS) for the Indian Army's T-90S+ and T-90M main battle tanks and same will be applied on Arjun Or DRDO's Adavi-based Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment has also developed a mobile camouflage system to provide multi-spectral signature management for reducing vehicle visual, thermal and radar signature against sensors and smart munitions.
 
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Kunal Biswas

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@Kunal Biswas - I believe you claim to be in the armed forces hence the title ?
Lots of folks in here are related to the army; and I have on record statements by a General (recently retired) who said that the Army prefers T90 to Arjun.
I like to keep thing personal though i already mentioned abt my residence here.. lol
Well with all respect, i would like to tell him that it was a past, Some of men in army who operate T-72/90 can never answer you abt Arjun until they themselves operate Arjun..

People i know in force are Pro ARJUN..
 
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sob

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Kunal is there some reservation about the Arjun having 4 crew members while the T 90 has 3 crew members.
 

ppgj

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Also, Igors views may be good at times, but they are not the official view from the Russian or Indian officials.
the fact that these tanks were shown to no less than Mr. Putin does add value to what Igor says. isn't it?? now i leave it to you to judge whether it can be termed official or not. Indian officials view do not matter because they are not collaborators in T-90, just customers.

What he has defined as T-90M may not be the same as what we are talking about.
are you suggesting there are 2 or more versions of T-90M?? does not sound right.

The Russians actually make a lot of different prototypes and everybody gets confused in the end, with help from the media. The export model is T-90S. We are improving on that model with the Kaktus ERA. Some one from the media calls it T-90M. The T-90M you are talking about actually does not exist. So, the media may have decided to name this version of T-90S as the T-90M.
hard to beleive that. Igor is a resident of Russia and a credible source too. besides he is a member here too. may be somebody could ask him.. he is not active though. may be AV can help here.

besides there were pictures on the links.

That may be a future upgrade to the T-90. Lets not jump to conclusions to what it is designated as.
The first 300+ tanks are T-90S with Kontart, the next 1300 are with kaktus 5. That's about it. Nothing else will be changed except maybe the APS.
how come just adding an ERA can be termed as T-90M then?? it will be still T-90S with Kaktus.. that's all.

the fact that T-90M is different is because of the specs listed in the links.

T-90S rounds penetration to defeat enemy is weak due to better armour in the modern tanks. reason why they are going for better and longer rods and that is why they need a better auto loader to fire those which also means changes to turret. seems plausible to me.
 
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