Decision on $10 billion MMRCA deal soon

Immanuel said:

Personally, i would rather we develop our own 500 km subsonic missile. Taurus is freaking expensive, too expensive for the huge number of targets we'll have to engage if we have to fight both china and Pak. What we need is an inexpensive subsonic missile with a range of 500km, with similar warhead capability as the Nirbhay which should be it's larger cousin, They should just scale down the current Nirbhay down to a smaller missile and you get a mini Nirbhay with the same 24 warhead capability and low weight. For the likes of our enemies, we'll need huge stock, a mini Nirbhay missile inventory of around 3000 missiles and another 2000 normal Nirbhays.

Nirbhay would have a range of around 1000km, weight is expected to be around 1200 to 1500 kg and is expected to be able to deploy 24 types of warheads. I am sure they have been working hard to keep the weight as well as the design as stealthy as possible. It should be fairly easily to take the same well researched design and turn it into a smaller cousin weighing around 700 to 900 kg with a range of around 500 km. the smaller missile should be easily deployable from the Mirage, FGFA, MKI, mig-29, LCA mk 2 and Jaguars.

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Armand2REP said:

Sweden nothing, Taurus is 70% German. It isn't news except for the fact MKI handlers aren't happy with Brahmos in an air-launched land attack role. I only wonder if MBDA France hasn't been approached about Scalp EG as they are nearly the same once you cut down the range.

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SPIEZ said:

We can buy a few of these TAURUS missile's, study the technology used in them(for eg:GPS receivers, Radio links, target identifiers etc) and we can use them in our missiles.

Also air launched missiles will always be lighter because of the MOMENTUM of the aircraft which carriers it. Therefore in a lighter weight it will give more range.

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Immanuel said:

I hardly think we have much to learn from Taurus. We already have state of the art seeker tech on board the brahmos which can hit its target precisely in hard to hit mountainous valleys at speeds of mach 3. If anything Taurus's seeker is 2 generations behind the Brahmos. Brahmos using GPS and INS already can perform steep dives, abrupt terminal maneuvers to counter air defences and has precision of less than 1 meter.

We already have all the tech we need to make state of the art subsonic cruise missiles considering we were able to quickly have new capabilities in brahmos in q short duration through upgrades in seekers and software.

We simply have to provide funding and start a parallel project once nirbhay begins trials for a shorter range low cost subsonic cruise mini nirbhay.
With the same 24 warhead capability that they plan to have on nirbhay.

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SPIEZ said:

IMHO, the Brahmos will only be carried by Su-30 MKI, other air-crafts wont be able to carry it. The TAURUS will be lighter in weight and can be carried by most air-crafts.

Also the Brahmos is expensive and a supersonic missile. In cases where they will be needing low flying subsonic cruise missiles they ll use the TAURUS.

But whatever happened to the Israeli developed HAVENAP/POPEYE missiles ????

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Armand2REP said:

The only thing officially planned for MKI is 40 conversions to carry the anti-shipping variant of Brahmos. I suspect there will be no Block III LACM going on MKI at all and this RFI is what will be the LACM for Super 30. Like you said,

A) Brahmos is too heavy
B) it is too expensive
C) the structural reinforcement of aircraft is not fleet wide

TAURUS or SCALP EG would suit the IAF better since either EF or Rafale and M2000-9 will be carrying it too.

Last I heard the wing assembly on Popeye failed acceptance tests.

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p2prada said:

Oh! Will you grow up. We are buying a stand off missile simply because we need one and not because there is something wrong with Brahmos. I can just say "you wish" and end it.

We have already discussed the capabilities of the MKI and it is beyond that of the Rafale or any MRCA fighter when it comes to payload. The MKI already carries heavier stuff and will carry even heavier stuff once the upgrade is made.

There is nothing magical on the Block III Brahmos that the MKI cannot carry. The Brahmos capable MKIs aren't only for anti shipping role either. We don't even know the final numbers for MKI fitted Brahmos and you know how unpredictable the IAF can be by looking at the PAKFA numbers. Instead of 200 odd FGFAs, we are getting 166 PAKFAs and 48 FGFAs. So, hold on to your horses until official words are out.

In the end I would only agree with one point and that is Brahmos is expensive. If you failed to notice Brahmos is a full fledged cruise missile with a completely different capability and has no bearing whatsoever on the decision of buying Taurus, Scalp or Popeye. It merely enhances the MKIs choice of weaponry and Brahmos has it's own unique advantages as the Taurus or Scalp. So, IAF has use for both types of missiles.

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p2prada said:

you know how unpredictable the IAF can be by looking at the PAKFA numbers. Instead of 200 odd FGFAs, we are getting 166 PAKFAs and 48 FGFAs. So, hold on to your horses until official words are out.

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Armand2REP said:

The only thing officially planned for MKI is 40 conversions to carry the anti-shipping variant of Brahmos. I suspect there will be no Block III LACM going on MKI at all and this RFI is what will be the LACM for Super 30. Like you said,

A) Brahmos is too heavy
B) it is too expensive
C) the structural reinforcement of aircraft is not fleet wide

TAURUS or SCALP EG would suit the IAF better since either EF or Rafale and M2000-9 will be carrying it too.

Last I heard the wing assembly on Popeye failed acceptance tests.

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SPIEZ said:

It was issued to USAF!
It is now jointly produced by Turkey and Israel!
There's even an anti-ship variant !
Don't think all this would have been possible with failed wing assembly

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SPIEZ said:

Sir, what about the POPEYE missile ?

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p2prada said:

Hmm... I don't know what is it that you are looking for. We have already taken deliveries of the Popeye II missile some time back. Our variant was called the Crystal Maze. We are planning to buy Delilah II from Israel. This missile is capable of loitering in the air until targets can be seen again. We have plenty of different types of cruise missiles or Russian origin missiles as well. Brahmos and Nirbhay will fill in the indigenous component while the others will give us a proven capability.

Nothing we buy from foreign shores can be 100% reliable, that's why we have to buy different things from different vendors. Even if one of them fails, the other is bound to work. So, this will help us to better prepare for war. For eg: During Kargil war, French supplied LGBs could not be used due to manufacturing defects, so we had to switch over to Israeli systems and delay LGB use by a month. This is done to avoid such situations again.

The Popeye II missile has been in use in India since sometime now and is a downgraded version of the Popeye.

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SPIEZ said:

Darn! can't we ever get any good missiles, or is it like this in most airforces???

Seriously feel sorry for the IAF!!!!

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Kunal Biswas said:

There is problems with Duds mainly Russian, I for my self see Missile some time work abnormally..

There is problem with a batch of R77 otherwise all other were good enough..

Karsnoop Laser Guided arty shells were total Duds..


But till date non of IMI hardware are degraded or proved faulty, If you see the vid posted by member, You will find IN purchased a ASHM which was outdated already, Many others have problems with date and manufacturing types, This is not the fault of IAF or The Shopkeeper But MOD`s paper works..

In Kargil French Kits were useless coz the work with American Laser Pods, Which were denied later we took IAI Lighting Pods..
French Weapons have highest quality mark in Indian armed forces..

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SPIEZ said:

Darn! can't we ever get any good missiles, or is it like this in most airforces???

Seriously feel sorry for the IAF!!!!

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p2prada said:

Hmm... I don't know what is it that you are looking for. We have already taken deliveries of the Popeye II missile some time back. Our variant was called the Crystal Maze. We are planning to buy Delilah II from Israel. This missile is capable of loitering in the air until targets can be seen again. We have plenty of different types of cruise missiles or Russian origin missiles as well. Brahmos and Nirbhay will fill in the indigenous component while the others will give us a proven capability.

Nothing we buy from foreign shores can be 100% reliable, that's why we have to buy different things from different vendors. Even if one of them fails, the other is bound to work. So, this will help us to better prepare for war. For eg: During Kargil war, French supplied LGBs could not be used due to manufacturing defects, so we had to switch over to Israeli systems and delay LGB use by a month. This is done to avoid such situations again.

The Popeye II missile has been in use in India since sometime now and is a downgraded version of the Popeye.

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