Would IAF have worked to induct 80-120 Tejas mk-1 if no MRCA alias MMRCA program

If MMRCA program is dropped, will tejas mk-1 be given life with 80-120 more orders?


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icecoolben

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Fighter cost analysis

Once order numbers come down and Europeon companies increasingly are footing the development bills too. All cost of technology development for AESA radar, Engine Enhancement will be paid by Indian taxpayer.

India already imports vast quantities of munitions from different sources: ASRAAM, Harpoon, lots of subsystems for Tejas. If tejas has to be given the oppurtuninty to develop local alternatives, the token number 40 mk1, 120 mk-2 will not suffice even for peanuts. A production run of atleast 400 LCA Tejas is required if unit cost of program needs to stand below $ 34.5 million. If its 140, the costs shoot to $ 52.14 million. It is a rape of trust of the tax payer by the establishment going in search of new platforms that afford lesser or same capabilities as the Su-30 mki, just because IAF receives Janes weekly.
 

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Rahul Singh

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Nobod till now has been able to rationalise this - why is the gripen a top MRCA contender and why isn't the LCA.
You missed it all together. Gripen C/D is not the top contender of M-MRCA but its differently designed and re-engined version called Gripen NG. I think this is the reason why nobody even tried.
 

icecoolben

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i think the question would be better posed as "If foreign procurement of fighter aircrafts is dropped, will tejas mk-1 be given life with 80-120 more orders?" rather than "If MMRCA program is dropped, will tejas mk-1 be given life with 80-120 more orders?"

if its the former i would say yes since that blocks the russian sales, for the latter, which is what the question is, my answer is no, my sense is even if mmrca was to be scrapped IAF would rather rely on more su30MKIs or possibly orders for su35. additional orders for LCA mkI, highly unlikely if IAF has the option to procure from over seas.
If you are true then Mig-35 will win MMRCA with Gripen narrowly loosing, since it can project the lowest cost with the infrastructure to support already existing in India.

If I'm right only a western option will be chosen which would be compromise of political and military interest with Industry, economics coming last.

We would see when the decision is out, won't we?
 

icecoolben

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You missed it all together. Gripen C/D is not the top contender of M-MRCA but its differently designed and re-engined version called Gripen NG. I think this is the reason why nobody even tried.
How much do you think Gripen NG will carry in most of its sorties only 2 tons of ordnance against advertised 7.2 tons. A size of aircraft is determined by the range it is expected to operate, but now with drop tanks and a-a refuelling, any aircraft can go toe to toe with a bigger adversary. If by 2014, chobam can develop a-a refuelling for tejas mk-1 it would match Gripen, atleast a/b model then Mk-2 can even outstrip Gripen NG, since if there are no orders it will remain a paper plane till swedish air force orders it by 2017.

Remember even USAF was reluctant to take F-16, it was wiser US policy makers assisted by professionals in the industry who prevailed upon them to induct a cost effective low end alternative compliment and I don't need to tell u about F-16 success.
 

Rahul Singh

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As for the IAF changing specs on the LCA....well when you take 30 years to develop a 3+ gen aircraft - you should expect the end-user to change the specs on you.
30 years and 3+ generation aircraft? From where did this 30 year figure came? Did development started in 1980? Friend, first ASR was not out even by 1989. When the user has not conveyed what they exactly require how can the project be called rolling? Does any round table conversation that too only in between designers marks beginning of the project?

And this 3+ generation? Will you like to share, what is the standard on which generation of a jet is decided? As far as i am concerned, i believe it the generation of the technology involved in making that jet which decides which generation a particular jet belongs to. With 'fly by wire', 'composite airframe' and fully multi mode radar LCA MK-1 is well above 4th generation.

Its like when you frequently change ASR (just because earlier you were in mindset that these ADA people can't develop technologies like digital fly by wire, composite airframe and multi mode radar and you think since they can now why not ask for higher) and push requirements close to M-MRCA then you get the final product late, very late. It is user's responsibility to write an ASR well predicting future requirements keeping in mind natural delays associated. This is something in which IAF failed.

The IAF is doing exactly what you said - taking a few token planes. The Gripen is way ahead of the LCA. Tejas is a sub-par fighter and should be considering a learning experience - nothing more.
IAF inducted two squadrons of Mirage-2000s and three squadrons of Mig-29U/UB and as far as i know no body has ever called them Token planes!

Critics can call it whatever they want but the fact is HF-XX Tejas MK-1 is very well built for the purpose. Which in fact is to fill void created after retirement of Mig-21s, Mig-23s and Mig-27s.

Like it or not, one possibility is that with LCA MK-2, IAF is actually trying to cap 126 at 126.
 

thakur_ritesh

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If you are true then Mig-35 will win MMRCA with Gripen narrowly loosing, since it can project the lowest cost with the infrastructure to support already existing in India.

If I'm right only a western option will be chosen which would be compromise of political and military interest with Industry, economics coming last.

We would see when the decision is out, won't we?
you came to a conclusion that i didnt even spell out, you could have atleast asked be before making that assumption, on mmrca you should be digging into what i have said about the decision.

since you wont be possibly able to do that, here is what i have said:

political decision: then it will be either of the 2 teens with boeing likely to walk away with the deal and there is a lot to be gained politically if we were to go for the US aircraft.
technical decision: i am technically not qualified enough to say which one neither have i had the opportunity to have a first hand feel of any of the contenders, but from what i read the choice could be between either of the 2 european aircrafts making the cut.

in india when it comes to such huge money, the decision is generally political and most likely in that case it will be an american jet but the IAF is making it self heard about all the restrictions that come along and india getting watered down version of what is on show case from the american side so it could eventually be a tough call between f18/rafale/eft with gripen having an outside chance.
 

icecoolben

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you came to a conclusion that i didnt even spell out, you could have atleast asked be before making that assumption, on mmrca you should be digging into what i have said about the decision.

since you wont be possibly able to do that, here is what i have said:

political decision: then it will be either of the 2 teens with boeing likely to walk away with the deal and there is a lot to be gained politically if we were to go for the US aircraft.
technical decision: i am technically not qualified enough to say which one neither have i had the opportunity to have a first hand feel of any of the contenders, but from what i read the choice could be between either of the 2 european aircrafts making the cut.

in india when it comes to such huge money, the decision is generally political and most likely in that case it will be an american jet but the IAF is making it self heard about all the restrictions that come along and india getting watered down version of what is on show case from the american side so it could eventually be a tough call between f18/rafale/eft with gripen having an outside chance.
U are trying to approve as the deal furthers very short term political interests. The US is no dog to roll over for $ 10 billion biscuit. They annually give their favourite dog pakistan $ 2 billion bone to chew on. The USA still wishes to engage Russia and France, while it runs over UK or buldozes it to be amiable to its terms. There is no harm in buying critical components not immediately available locally or not cost effective to be produced in limited numbers during development from USA which spends billions for R&D to invent them. But buying a comletely american platform has to be accompanied by Aim-120 AMRAAAM, Aim-9x, JDAM, Mk-802 and every itsy bitsy weapon down to the 20 mm cannon rounds that US uses on the platform., which is very detriminal in the medium run itself. In case of US, there is no liability on the OEM, the USAF, Pentagon is the seller. I doubt any babu/politician in MOD has the balls to sue pentagon boss over late delivery of spares, improper support or not following offsets by the rulebook.

I used to support US platforms too in the beginning. but as I dug deeper I found the competition to be completely hollow.
 

thakur_ritesh

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U are trying to approve as the deal furthers very short term political interests. The US is no dog to roll over for $ 10 billion biscuit. They annually give their favourite dog pakistan $ 2 billion bone to chew on. The USA still wishes to engage Russia and France, while it runs over UK or buldozes it to be amiable to its terms. There is no harm in buying critical components not immediately available locally or not cost effective to be produced in limited numbers during development from USA which spends billions for R&D to invent them. But buying a comletely american platform has to be accompanied by Aim-120 AMRAAAM, Aim-9x, JDAM, Mk-802 and every itsy bitsy weapon down to the 20 mm cannon rounds that US uses on the platform., which is very detriminal in the medium run itself. In case of US, there is no liability on the OEM, the USAF, Pentagon is the seller. I doubt any babu/politician in MOD has the balls to sue pentagon boss over late delivery of spares, improper support or not following offsets by the rulebook.

I used to support US platforms too in the beginning. but as I dug deeper I found the competition to be completely hollow.
politically let us put it like this. which are the two most likely contenders to win. it is either the US or the europeans.

as far as the EU as an entity is concerned, with an economy that is in doldrums they dont come across as someone who can entirely address our mid term interests of elevating our status in the global scene, the little support we want from them that we can make do even by doing FTAs and economic deals where they get a larger share of our economy and deals where they are pushed across as favorites and these people would be do things as we would wish them to do, they are as such wary of the prc, and then india ofcourse is an economy which is touted to be the second largest over a period of time and if all were to go right then the 3rd largest in another 10-15 years at max so in the mid term EU and individual nations from EU do not have much options but to listen and deliver on what we want from them and all this even without we handing them out military deals but the advantage of doing military deals with them would be that the equipment being bought would most likely be sanction proof which certainly cant be guaranteed with the US.

when it comes to US, they are the sole reigning super power and they along with russia are the two nations who are of immense importance to us in achieving our mid terms goals be it our energy requirements, our galloping economy, our desire to have a bigger say at the global stage, our military needs with russia chipping in with stuff and technology that no one else would bother to offer and US to an extent since they have a china phobia, if i were to put it like that which is where i think we can extract our pound of flesh but then things on that front will all the restrictions dont look too good.

as far as pakistan is concerned and US's role there, in my point of view it is in our interest to have a pakistan where US plays a big enough role. we dont want to end up in a situation where pakistan like dprk runs around like a mad dog ready to bite who does as is told by the chinese because if the chinese had their way then they would make sure india is contained in the region through pakistan and what better way to do that by making this region burn in a war and chinese in that case would want to fight us till the last standing pakistani. when US plays a role in pakistan, whatever that may be, in that case the above scenario happening has little chances and it also to an extent addresses our concern on putting pressure on pakistan on curbing terrorism in india and this is one reason why now the paks have started saying that all the terrorism is happening because of kashmir which is where they again get snubbed, let us also not forget musharraf under the pressure from the US did a lot of give away on kashmir and world opinion over a period of time has been shaped in favor of india by constant support of the US to the extent even the mid east it seems has stahed toeing our line on kashmir and if we want to achieve our goal of becoming one of the leading economies then it is detrimental that we have a peaceful rise so in all this a pakistan with significant US involvement is in our interest.

as far as pakistan is concerned, there are just two long term solutions, either this country is truly brought under the rule of civilians who have little to no influence from the establishment otherwise it is in our interest to break this country off with new found countries under our sphere of influence.

coming to the last line, "I used to support US platforms too in the beginning. but as I dug deeper I found the competition to be completely hollow", well i am no fan of the US or the EU or russia or the PRC, for me what matters is the benefits that my country stands to gain and if that means at times dealing with the PRC gets my country the most benefit then i wont for a second hesitate dealing with them.
 

icecoolben

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Scam takes shine off India's top brass By Sudha Ramachandran

If u let the armed forces be the spoiled rich brat, this happens

Scam takes shine off India's top brass
By Sudha Ramachandran

BANGALORE
- The involvement of India's top generals in a corrupt building deal worth millions of dollars has shattered the relatively clean image of the military.

The armed forces, arguably the most respected institution in the country, now seem to be taking the same path as other corruption-plagued spheres of influence just as the military prepares for a vast procurement spree.

Investigations are underway to determine how senior politicians, and bureaucrats and officers took ownership of apartments in a block constructed on Ministry of Defense-owned land for widows



and war veterans of the brief 1999 Kargil war with Pakistan.

Owners of flats in the Adarsh Cooperative Housing Society, built in the upmarket Colaba area of south Mumbai
, include former army chiefs General Deepak Kapoor and General Nirmal Chander Vij, former navy chief Admiral Madhvendra Singh and former army vice chief General Shantanu Choudhary.

The controversy was revealed when Admiral Sanjeev Bhasin of the Western Naval Command wrote to army headquarters and the Defense Ministry complaining that the building posed a security threat to nearby military installations. The land is located within the security perimeter of the Colaba naval base.

Originally meant to be six storeys high, the Adarsh building project instead became a 100-meter high, 31-storey structure overlooking the base. The building stands virtually on the seashore, despite coastal regulation zone laws that forbid construction in a 200-meter zone from the high-tide line of the coast.

Some years ago when journalists drew attention to the violation of security and environmental norms at the site, defense officials said civilian rules did not apply to land belonging to the military. The officials also cited humanitarian reasons, stating that the building was meant for war widows and veterans.

Kapoor and Vij have claimed they did not know the apartments were meant for war widows. It seems odd that a top general should be unaware of such a high-profile scheme.

It has emerged that Kapoor apparently bent other rules to get himself allotted an apartment in Adarsh. When he applied for the flat in 2005, the rules stated owners must have lived in Mumbai for 15 years. He quickly got himself a domicile certificate from Maharashtra chief minister Vilasrao Deshmukh. The salary slip he submitted with his application was also false.

The apartments, completed in 2008 and bought for as little as 6 million rupees (US$130,000), are now worth about 80 million rupees ($1.8 million) in Mumbai's rising real estate market, according to local media.

This is not the first time that generals have become entangled in land scams. Last year, 70 acres (28.3 hectares) of army land in Sukhna in West Bengal
was sold to a private real-estate developer. Four serving generals, one of them a close aide of Kapoor, then chief of army staff, were indicted. Among the indicted was Lieutenant General P K Rath, who was then poised to take over as deputy army chief. He now faces a court-martial.

In previous decades, corruption in the armed forces took the form of simple pilfering of rations and supplies. But in the past 10 years, the scale has grown enormously, particularly with regard to the procurement of military hardware and weapons systems. What is more, it is the top brass that is increasingly being found with its hand in the cookie jar.

According to the Times of India, "at least 10 generals - of two- and three-star rank, which means major-generals and lieutenant-generals - have come under the scanner for corruption and financial misappropriation in a series of meat, ration, fuel and liquor scandals over the last few years".

Several scams have laid bare the depths to which army officers are willing to sink to make a fast buck. During the Kargil conflict, which raged between India and Pakistan across the disputed Kashmir region for three months in 1999, aluminum caskets meant to transport the bodies of dead soldiers were purchased from an American company at several times the actual cost.

Three army officials were named in the chargesheet. Soldiers, including those serving in the icy heights of the Siachen Glacier, were supplied with substandard food. Food and liquor meant for soldiers was diverted to the black market.

It seems army officers will try anything to cheat the system. They have been repeatedly found faking combat mission with an eye on cash and bravery awards. In Assam, a colonel made civilians pose in photographs as dead insurgents, their faces splashed with ketchup. In Siachen, a major and a colonel made video footage of fake killings of "enemy soldiers" in an attempt to win medals.

Unlike their more venal counterparts in the political establishment and civilian bureaucracy, military officers had generally been looked on as incorruptible. When scandals involving officers emerged over the years, they were dismissed as aberrations. The concerned officers were described as a few rotten apples. But the involvement of former army chiefs in these land scams has triggered a realization that the rot goes much deeper.

One reason why corruption has spread so deep into the armed forces is that the military is treated as a holy cow. Scrutiny is frowned on. Decision-making on military procurements is opaque and national security is often cited to brush allegations of corruption under the carpet. Those who dare to try and expose the rot in the system are labeled as dangerous troublemakers and can find themselves in legal hot water.

In 2001, when Tehelka, a news website, launched the sting operation "Operation West End" to expose corruption in high places including in defense procurement deals, it was subjected to a witch-hunt. Tehelka's founder-editor Tarun Tejpal was charged with "immoral trafficking" for offering prostitutes to defense officials during the sting operation. Tehelka's funders came under immense pressure, and were subjected to income tax raids among other things, almost ruining the company.

While Indians are willing to criticize politicians and their corruption, as slow pace of democratic institutions, the military are seen as disciplined, efficient and clean. This tendency to look on democracy with suspicion is a "hold-over from the days of Raj", Umair Ahmed Muhajir wrote recently in Outlook magazine. Taken to its extreme in India's neighbors, it has resulted in public support for military rule in Pakistan, Bangladesh and Myanmar. Indians might not have gone as far as in endorsing the role of the military, but it is putting the military on a pedestal and that is dangerous, Muhajir warns.

There is good reason for India to quickly stem the rot in its defense establishment. India is on the brink of what global consultancy firm KPMG describes as "one of the largest procurement cycles in the world". Between now and 2016, it expected to spend $112 billion on capital defense acquisitions. This in turn will create opportunities for Indian firms to the tune of $30 billion, KPMG said in a recent report.

Leading defense manufacturers are engaged in aggressive lobbying for lucrative contracts. Many in India's defense establishment will be keenly eyeing kickbacks. Corruption in defense procurement can be expected to surge, unless the government acts now.
 

icecoolben

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ASQR favoured a very light LCA Tejas with minimal range and ordnance

Assuming that all engines have same efficeincy, every aircraft's performane such range and payload capability depend solely on the thrust of the engine in a direct proportional relation.

If India wished for a gripen fighter in LCA Tejas it should have set the empty weight at 6500 kg like gripen not 5000 kg. It clearly shows IAF was the culprit that in evaluating its requirements it made generous assumptions for a very small airframe, then went on vacation mode for the rest of development. It is now heavy headed to accept its deformed child as its own asking for plastic surgery mk-2.

From the below pic u can see out of the last four Rafale, Eurofighter and F-22 raptor, whose engine tech are competant with one another. there is corrosponding increase in T/W as we empty the aircraft of fuel, The F-35 doesn't seem to fit in, may be A-A refuelling has reduced the need for large fuel loads.
 

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neo29

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It is a known fact that MMRCA was introduced since LCA was getting delayed. But years later after the shortfall of fighters in the IAF for a 2 front war, it became evident that mmrca is indeed a good decision and a must to make sure that the IAF has a formidable airforce in the region.

So merely inducting 120 tejas does not solve the 2 front problem. We need mmrca, lca and 5th gen fighter.
 

icecoolben

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It is a known fact that MMRCA was introduced since LCA was getting delayed. But years later after the shortfall of fighters in the IAF for a 2 front war, it became evident that mmrca is indeed a good decision and a must to make sure that the IAF has a formidable airforce in the region.

So merely inducting 120 tejas does not solve the 2 front problem. We need mmrca, lca and 5th gen fighter.
It is not a question of need, if u look within the context. First U nned to imagine that MMRCA is abandoned, cancelled and put in cold storage forever, then answer the debate.
 

icecoolben

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Anyway ne29, for u I took the time to get an analysis, Hope its good for u

People sitting in the USA can see through our folly, only our own people play cheer leading for foreign weapons manufacturers.

India's MMRCA Deal: Muddled Rationale, Costly Adventure?
Vipin Narang
Vipin Narang
10/26/2009

Although nowhere near as high profile or politically dramatic as the 2008 Indo-U.S. nuclear deal, India's proposed $10 billion procurement of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) may have a much more profound impact on India's strategic relations, particularly if a U.S. Platform – either Lockheed's F-16 E/F or Boeing's F/A-18 E/F – is selected as the winning bid. Indeed, given that the first eighteen aircraft bought in flyaway condition will likely not be operationalized into the Indian Air Force (IAF) until at least 2014-15, and the remaining 108 – aimed to be assembled indigenously – will not be operational until at least 2022, the strategic impact of the deal may far outweigh the tactical utility of this proposed stop-gap solution for a fourth generation fighter that might be dated by the time it is deployed. This raises the natural question, given other pressing needs for the IAF, of whether or not this is worth it.

Why did the IAF and Ministry of Defence (MoD) issue a request for proposal for 126 medium fourth generation MMRCA? The IAF currently operates between thirty and thirty-two combat aircraft squadrons, well below the mandated level of 39.5 squadrons; this combat strength is envisioned to fall further to roughly twenty-seven to twenty-nine squadrons in the next decade or so as older MiG-21 squadrons are retired without replacement. With such a depleted combat strength, the IAF cannot maintain the deployment patterns and operational readiness that are required for India's self-defense. India's air superiority over Pakistan could also be threatened, particularly as Pakistan takes delivery of further F-16 orders in the coming years. As a result, faced with imminent depletion of force-strength, the IAF and MoD began considering options several years ago to replace its aging combat aircraft fleet.

One option was to replace the light combat MiG-21 squadrons with modern aircraft of similar, but augmented capabilities, such as the MiG-29 or French Mirages. The indigenous development of the Tejas light combat aircraft, however, which is roughly of the same class and capability as a modernized MiG-21, mitigated the need to acquire a foreign replacement for the MiG-21 squadrons. The Tejas, though, has run into engine problems, triggering a fresh search for a higher-thrust engine in August 2009; the IAF is thus not expecting to take delivery of its first operational Tejas aircraft for another several years. In addition, the IAF has been steadily incorporating the highly capable and versatile 4.5 generation Su-30 MKI, a Russian medium-to-heavy platform with interceptor, bomber, and ground attack capabilities into its force structure since 2002, and it is increasingly indigenously assembled by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL); a total of 280 will be inducted into the IAF by 2015. The combination of the Tejas and the Su-30 MKI will largely replenish and supersede India's retiring assets by the middle of the next decade, putting the IAF at full combat strength by 2022.

The other alternative was to leapfrog technologies entirely and acquire a fifth generation fighter capable of operating in a network-centric environment, with some stealth capability, such as the U.S.-made F-22 or F-35, or Russian-made Sukhoi PAK-FA. India and Russia have agreed, in principle, to jointly develop the Sukhoi PAK-FA which is roughly in the same weight-class as a medium combat aircraft. Recently-retired Air Chief Marshal Fali Major expects the fifth generation fighter to be operational around 2020. While the IAF will be below-strength in its targeted combat aircraft capability until 2015, once the full complement of Tejas and Su-30MKIs are incorporated by then – and with the targeted development and acquisition of the Sukhoi PAK-FA true fifth generation aircraft – the IAF will be well-placed with a mix of light and medium-to-heavy multirole combat aircraft capable of executing most envisioned fighter and attack missions.

So where does the MMRCA deal fit into the IAF's force requirements? It was initially envisioned in 2001 as an interim solution to replace the retiring MiG-21 fleet with a more capable set of 126 4.5 generation fighters. The six candidates for the MMRCA deal are a mix of single and twin-engine aircraft all broadly classified as medium multirole combat aircraft: the F-16 E/F (with a vague future option of the F-35), the F/A-18 E/F, the Dassault Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Saab Gripen NG, and Russia's MiG-35. These six aircraft are currently undergoing IAF trials in a variety of combat environments: Bangalore, Jaisalmer, and Leh. These trials will continue for at least the next year as the IAF undergoes its evaluation both in India and in-country to evaluate weapons complements.

Once the IAF makes its recommendation to the MoD, the black-box of Indian bureaucracy will be responsible for awarding the contract. According to Rahul Bedi of Jane's Defence Weekly, this process is expected to take until 2012-14, and the criteria by which the MoD will make its final selection are incredibly ambiguous. The first eighteen aircraft, to be bought off-the-shelf in flyaway condition, are not required to be delivered until three years after the awarding of the contract; any delays in the acquisition process may push the first delivery of MMRCA platforms into the latter half of next decade. The indigenization process for the remaining 108 aircraft will also be time-consuming, and will vary significantly by the platform selected, so it could be up to 15 years – if not more – before the bulk of the MRCA are inducted into the IAF.

This elongated timeline undermines the primary rationale for the MMRCA deal. Since the Tejas and the Su-30MKIs will be operational well before even the first eighteen MMRCAs are delivered, and the Sukhoi PAK-FA fifth generation fighter is likely to be developed around the same time as the indigenously produced MMRCAs, the $10 billion MMRCA complement could be dated by the time it is incorporated into the IAF's force structure – and certainly by the end of its three-decade life cycle – particularly since an expanded order of Su-30MKIs might provide broadly similar capabilities. Though it presently lacks an "active electronically scanned array" (AESA) radar, this may be upgradeable.

Critics of this view will argue that the MMRCA deal nevertheless provides a necessary capability in between the takeoff weights of the slightly heavier Su-30MKI and the Tejas, allowing India to expand its "operational envelope." For a largely status quo power, the natural question is, of course, where to expand for the IAF. In what specific missions and roles will there be a gap? There does not appear to be an articulated role for the MMRCA that cannot be filled by the IAF's existing combat aircraft and the mix of the Tejas, Su-30MKI, and proposed fifth generation fighter; capabilities judged sufficient to meet most realistic regional attack and fighter contingencies. As such, there are other capabilities the IAF could invest in that would reap greater tactical utility. Big ticket items may be prestigious and sexy, but the IAF may benefit more from necessary role-specific capabilities, particularly close ground support aircraft for mountainous combined arms operations (e.g., A-10 Thunderbolts), transport, further high-altitude attack helicopters, and surveillance or attack drone capabilities for counterinsurgency operations.

Strategically for India, the MMRCA deal is an opportunity to expand its burgeoning arms relationship with the United States, from which it has recently purchased P-8 maritime reconnaissance aircraft as well as C-130 transport aircraft. It could also help reduce its dependence on Russia for mainline platforms, which has recently frustrated the Indian military and MoD with the Gorshkov delays and a persistent lack of supply of spare parts. The selection of a frontline U.S. combat aircraft would mark a watershed moment in India's strategic outlook as it would be the first major shift away from Russian platforms, embedding India in a deeper commercial and military relationship with the United States for parts, weapons, maintenance, and operational training, generating an integrated client-side relationship.

But precisely because this shift would be such a break from India's past suppliers – Russia and France – it would require the costly development of a separate production, maintenance, weapons procurement, and training line in an IAF that already supports at least twenty-six different aircraft platforms. And even though the MMRCA deal mandates a 50 percent indigenous offset, stringent licensing and monitoring agreements will likely mean that the U.S. will not allow certain sensitive technologies to be transferred to India for indigenous production. While a diversified strategic relationship with the United States is certainly in both nations' interest, the MMRCA deal should not be viewed as a panacea toward that end, particularly since there are other commercial areas in which the two nations can cooperate that might be just as deep and easier to operationalize (e.g., nuclear energy). If India's primary aim is to establish a deeper arms relationship with the U.S., it would make more sense to select an American fifth-generation aircraft – whose costs might be more justifiable – rather than a medium MMRCA.

The contours of the MMRCA deal as it is unfolding, raises a critical question: is it worth the tens of billions of dollars outlay for little stop-gap measure, which can ably be substituted by the Su-30MKI, and which will eventually be superseded by a fifth generation fighter that might come online roughly around the same time? The Typhoon and the Gripen would make little sense for India. As new platforms, they would be costly to integrate into the IAF, with little obvious additional strategic or tactical benefit. The MiG-35 and the Rafale would be easier to incorporate into the IAF but again will reap little marginal benefit. The F-16 and F-18 would have a significant strategic impact, but will also be the most costly to operationalize; if the primary goal is a deeper strategic relationship with the U.S. and diversification away from Russia, there may be more cost-effective measures to achieve that end. There must thus be a clearer articulation by both the MoD and IAF as to what the utility of the MMRCA acquisitions will be, and a sober evaluation of whether it is worth the financial and organizational costs given other gaping priorities. The view from the outside suggests that it is very difficult to justify.

Vipin Narang is a Ph.D. Candidate in the Department of Government, Harvard University and a Research Fellow at the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs, Harvard University. In Fall 2010, he will be Assistant Professor of Political Science at MIT.

India in Transition (IiT) is published by the Center for the Advanced Study of India (CASI) of the University of Pennsylvania. All viewpoints, positions, and conclusions expressed in IiT are solely those of the author(s) and not specifically those of CASI.

© 2009 Center for the Advanced Study of India and the Trustees of the University of Pennsylvania. All rights reserved.


http://casi.ssc.upenn.edu/iit/narang
 

SpArK

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Delay in mk-2 evolution, production capability limitations, immediate fulfillment of squadron strength... The question looks completely irrelevant to the requirement. If no MRCA.. go buy from Ruskies , MIg-35 or Su-35 or from frenchies Rafale's.
 

duhastmish

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Delay in mk-2 evolution, production capability limitations, immediate fulfillment of squadron strength... The question looks completely irrelevant to the requirement. If no MRCA.. go buy from Ruskies , MIg-35 or Su-35 or from frenchies Rafale's.
india have gained alot strategically by dangling mrca bone to west. even if mrca is scrapped for the shear reason that no fighter is suiting our need ...... it wont be such a bad decision. but delay for choosing one because we need desperately - should be investigated.

tejas program although speeding up but is not as advance as most of these jet on offer. we cant replace a medium jet with a light jet.

tejas if suffix the need should be integrated in large number and also should be sold to smaller countries. it will bost indian economy and also the industrialization india badly lack on.

benny no mig-35 .... mig 35 althought a good platform but dont offer much knowladge and diverse advantage than mig-29k ..... rafele are too expensive. give what pilot want give them some american jet with single seat. ready to deploy -at-least some off the shelf from americans
 

icecoolben

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Delay in mk-2 evolution, production capability limitations, immediate fulfillment of squadron strength... The question looks completely irrelevant to the requirement. If no MRCA.. go buy from Ruskies , MIg-35 or Su-35 or from frenchies Rafale's.
We have already made Su-30 MKI with several features of Su-35 like Canard foreplanes and PESA radar, add to that Su-30 MKI is completely multi-role. But Su-35 is a sngle seater, completely averse for IAF and hasn't been operational with any force as of yet even the Russians. Its air to ground won't be as capable as MKI is with its specialised WSO. Same goes for Mig-35 accompanied by Mikoyan Gurevich going bankrupt with no new answers. The Rafale may be better, but as we know freanch are asking UAE to pay for upgrading Rafale to the standards they want what makes you say we would be treated any different. At least Tejas cost, can be controlled by us.

I see u have a fetish for new platforms. No harm in that. But please back up your arguements with Data and Analysis.
 

SpArK

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india have gained alot strategically by dangling mrca bone to west. even if mrca is scrapped for the shear reason that no fighter is suiting our need ...... it wont be such a bad decision. but delay for choosing one because we need desperately - should be investigated.

tejas program although speeding up but is not as advance as most of these jet on offer. we cant replace a medium jet with a light jet.

tejas if suffix the need should be integrated in large number and also should be sold to smaller countries. it will bost indian economy and also the industrialization india badly lack on.

benny no mig-35 .... mig 35 althought a good platform but dont offer much knowladge and diverse advantage than mig-29k ..... rafele are too expensive. give what pilot want give them some american jet with single seat. ready to deploy -at-least some off the shelf from americans
Agree with you on that... but the answer is relevant to the original question of alternatives if no MRCA. I know Mig-29K and Mig-35 is similar.

I dont believe in Tejas until it proves itself. Until then i will go with proved ones, since i believe my country needs the best.
 

SpArK

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We have already made Su-30 MKI with several features of Su-35 like Canard foreplanes and PESA radar, add to that Su-30 MKI is completely multi-role. But Su-35 is a sngle seater, completely averse for IAF and hasn't been operational with any force as of yet even the Russians. Its air to ground won't be as capable as MKI is with its specialised WSO. Same goes for Mig-35 accompanied by Mikoyan Gurevich going bankrupt with no new answers. The Rafale may be better, but as we know freanch are asking UAE to pay for upgrading Rafale to the standards they want what makes you say we would be treated any different. At least Tejas cost, can be controlled by us.

I see u have a fetish for new platforms. No harm in that. But please back up your arguements with Data and Analysis.
Ok forget Su-35... replace the answer with more Su-30MKI in my original post.

One more question , which one among the 2.. Tejas Mk-2 and Su-35 can procured fast based on their progress ?
 

icecoolben

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Agree with you on that... but the answer is relevant to the original question of alternatives if no MRCA. I know Mig-29K and Mig-35 is similar.

I dont believe in Tejas until it proves itself. Until then i will go with proved ones, since i believe my country needs the best.
U contry's and your airfoce's best interests may not be mutually exclusive. But they are not Sub set of one another either.

In other words, IAF inducting Tejas is in best interests of country. But inductin Tejas will put large strain on IAF work load, which could be eased if MMRCA is cancelled with IAF calendar being free for Tejas from 2010-2020 till PAKFA/FGFA induction starts
 

duhastmish

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Ok forget Su-35... replace the answer with more Su-30MKI in my original post.

One more question , which one among the 2.. Tejas Mk-2 and Su-35 can procured fast based on their progress ?
why depend on single platform. if one problem arise whole fleet goes down. and also it will be easier for enemy to have full doctrine of single fighter. diversity is important.

although higly unlikly but if fiction is the base of this thread then - we should go for decent number of - tejas , good addition of mk1 and also high upgrade of mirage.

But still what about navy we need some naval version of medium fighters. and they a big need after all india plan to have at least 2 new A/C in near future.
 

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