Worrisome rise of Chinese nationalism

F-14

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OK so the CPC is all the saints huh any way we are not ruled by a dictatorship in the Facade of the Grate " Peoples Republic" and Ho yes MOS we control our government by our vote in your land it is the other way round at least i am free and can sleep well after criticizing the Government not expecting a call for "tea" from the "Peoples" Police
 

Yusuf

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did you noticed the words "proxies" in my post?

You have many politicians from diverse social group.do those politicians represent the poor people's benefits?

the politicians run campaign with who's money?Can poor people afford it?
Ha!! The Dalit CM of UP is a Brahmin proxy? Dude dint make a fool of youself. India has the power to vote. The BJP, which is the political wing of the RSS VHP combined which are led by Brahmins got a drubbing in the elections held recently. You have no idea about Indian ways. We have a lot of issues about class and religion, but when it comes to national interest we are all Indians.
 

Sinjin

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Chinese nationalism

I have travelled extensively in both China and India. The first time I went to China the thing that struck me the most (I had recently before China been to India), and that I summarised to mates when I got home, was that China did not appear to have a SOUL.

In my view this was the direct consequence of years of communism and control. This to me was such a shame as China is an amazing country with an equally amazing history.

To me, the 'soul' that is so alive and vibrant in a place like India, was the difference eveywhere I went in China. It appeared that in the stead of a vibrant soul, the party (and people generally) appeared to embrace money and the pursuit thereof as the panacea.

The other equally crucial aspect of civilisation (that is the foundation of most western countries) and that perhaps India is a world authority at, that I found sorely lacking and missing in China was religion (or its widespread practice and lifestyle). This (religion providing a country and people with a robust moral compass) is, in my view, crucial in providing a balance to a society and to its excesses and an all important backstop.

My summary of the great civilization that China is, was that the absence of widespread religion, critical and independent thinking and debate and all the intangible qualities that I call the 'soul' of a civilzation, was lost through years of control and communism. The attempt of the party to pacify the masses by wholeheartdly embracing capatalism and the pure pursuit of wealth has only added to the wayward path this amazing country has taken.
 

masterofsea

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My summary of the great civilization that China is, was that the absence of widespread religion, critical and independent thinking and debate and all the intangible qualities that I call the 'soul' of a civilzation, was lost through years of control and communism. The attempt of the party to pacify the masses by wholeheartdly embracing capatalism and the pure pursuit of wealth has only added to the wayward path this amazing country has taken.


Chinese civilization is not based on religions.We don't need a manmade god to guide people.We guide people with humanity and philanthropy,which is called 良心or仁爱 in chinese.

And you can see,with science's developing,people are getting rational,more and more of them transfform themselves into atheismist.We just did it a little earlier.


Your word "soul" is abstract concept,even youself can'r describe what is soul.Westerns is lack of "soul",so you need gods to guide you.If you really have it,why all the nasty things(slave trade,genocide,civilization vandalism) happened in the history were done by westerns?

Your god's guide lost effectiveness when his people lack the "soul"
 

Yusuf

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Since when did the CCP teach words like humanity and philantrophy? When did you grow a heart?
Just for your information, the Indus valley civilization is not based on any religion.
Yes like any ancient civilization they too worshipped someone or the other and also the early Hinduism traits are present. But certainly it was not a religion based civilization.
 

Sinjin

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Master of sea

Your above post aptly illustrates my post.

I don't have to say any more in reply as your purile and intellectually deficient post, to a certain extent, confirms my hypothesis and summary of China.
 

Sinjin

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MasterofSea, A suitable starting point , if you wish wish to enter into contructive dialogue, may be "The Argumentative Indian" by Amartya Sen.
 

Sinjin

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MasterofSea, one more thing.

I remember taking to an old buddhist monk in Lijiang about China, religion and China's waring history etc. Amongst other things, he said, that it only took one Indian to conquer us all those centuries ago.

Of course he was referring to the Buddha in case your education system conveniently overlooked this part of your history. Its the shame the party has strangled this great aspect of Chinese history.
 

masterofsea

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When Chinese people think a buddhist as a loser of life,how could you/he thought buddhism conquered China?
 

Sinjin

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MasterofSea

Two monks were arguing about the temple flag. One said the flag moved, the other said the wind moved. Master Eno (638 - 713) overheard them and said, "It is neither the wind nor the flag, but your mind that moves." The monks were speechless.
 

masterofsea

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Two monks were arguing about the temple flag. One said the flag moved, the other said the wind moved. Master Eno (638 - 713) overheard them and said, "It is neither the wind nor the flag, but your mind that moves." The monks were speechless.
If you really had been in China,and can discuss buddhism philosophy with a Chinese monk.

Could you tell us the chinese version of this story?in Chinese.
 

F-14

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master of seas just put this in to prespective

"I am the same in a saint and in an arrogent but the difference is that the arrogant sahll never find me but the saint shall"

if u eat slowly you can even eat a palm tree for heastiness is not the quickest way to go

master today your country might have every thing meterialistical available but do always think that at the end nothing is yours every thing shall go to dust
 

Sinjin

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MasterofSea

My friend "The game is not about becoming somebody, its about becoming nobody." - Baba Ram Das.

Take care my friend.

:india:
 

masterofsea

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master today your country might have every thing meterialistical available but do always think that at the end nothing is yours every thing shall go to dust
That the point!

So Chinese people enjoy secular life and put the religions aside.

Chinese do have spiritual pursuit,but it's not about religion.
 

Ray

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Thomas Jefferson said:"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants".

India people got independent without violence.Theresults is that india after independence is same with the British india.

The only difference is the british governor was removed.

Indian people still ruled by Brahmen and their proxies.The low caste people' son are still low caste people.

The social status were inherited,which is the biggest inequality.

It tell us everything that India have the world's most wealthy people and at the same time india have the largest group of people under the international poverty line.

Fortunately,Indian people are devoted follower of gods.So the extravagant rulers could enjoy their ruling without concerning the poor farmers/dalits/slumdogs is going to overthrow them.
While for Communist Chinese in a race with the US finds everything wonderful with the US, we don’t find it so. We are no slaves to US ideology and sayings. You are.

Thomas Jefferson maybe an ideal for the modern Chinese chasing a capitalist dream, but to me he is NO ideal. He has double standards (same as the Chinese and so he is so likeable to you all). He maintained slaves and exhorted on the freedom of mankind! He sired children from his slave. Therefore, he does not appeal. He appeals to the Chinese, maybe.

He refreshed his liberty with sex with the oppressed and the slaved!

India is no paragon of virtues or great achievements. I concede that. However, what makes India different is that we have freedom to think and act as we like. I agree that is not perfect for achievement, but that at least allows us to be free of government control and Big Brother (1984 George Orwell). That freedom, unless experienced, cannot be believed!

In China, there is no religious freedom or freedom for organisations. Falun Gong was brutally repressed! In Xinjiang Moslems children are not allowed in the Mosque till they are 18 of age. No religious instructions is allowed be it any religion. All religious leaders are selected by the Chinese govt and all religious sermons to be given be it a Christian Church or Mosque has to be cleared by the Party apparatchik! So, it other words, mind control! China is full of robots!

In India, communal riots take place. That is true. It is because everyone is allowed freedom of thought and action! Of course, it is bad, but then we are FREE! We will not take Injustice! Our media is free, they will not hide the truth or what appears to be the truth! In China, every BAD EVENT IS HIDDEN!

If Brahmins were ruling INDIA, then we would not have a Sikh PM, a Roman Catholic (Vatican controlled ) to be the Mentor, a Khatri Chief of the Army, and Parsi as the boss of the Air Force and a non Brahmin as the boss of the Navy or a Scheduled Caste as the Speaker. Those days are gone. These non Brahmins are now the constitutional Brahmins!! So. Wake up and smell your dimsum.

Slumdogs are everywhere. You throw them out because you are authorial. We can’t. We are a democracy. Look at your poorer provinces where Moslem exist.
 

mattster

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Masterofsea.....let me refresh that Thomas Jefferson famous saying for you in a Chinese context.

The "Tree of Prosperity and shiny tall glass building in China's major cities" must be refreshed with the blood of migrant farm workers who move to city and work themselves to death but cannot even officially qualify for residence in those cities.

Imagine that - A Chinese citizen who is peasant cannot even move to the city and live there without special permission. What a lovely county...eh !!

The major cities are only reserved for the educated wealthy rich elite. A poor Chinese peasant is only allowed in the Big cities to work like a slave in the many construction sites or menial factory jobs.....but they have no rights of residence like other city residents.
 

Vladimir79

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Chinese civilization is not based on religions.We don't need a manmade god to guide people.We guide people with humanity and philanthropy,which is called 良心or仁爱 in chinese.
Is that why people are running to Christianity in the tens of millions?
 

truthfull

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Yusuf,
Thanks for correcting me, i am sorry i am a little exaggerating.
I appreciate the tolerance of this forum, that why i am still here. But some members here hold very deep hatred to China, that is not deniable.

Again thanks for reminding me.
you are saying right becoz china providing nuclear technology to pak and helping it.
 

badguy2000

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He refreshed his liberty with sex with the oppressed and the slaved!

India is no paragon of virtues or great achievements. I concede that. However, what makes India different is that we have freedom to think and act as we like. I agree that is not perfect for achievement, but that at least allows us to be free of government control and Big Brother (1984 George Orwell). That freedom, unless experienced, cannot be believed!
1.IMHO, india's problem is that India has not solved the problems of land distribution.

In the name of "inviolability of private property" , pre-modern land distribution system in fact is still kept in south Asia,including India.

On paper, Indian law set the upper limit of land ownership. but Indian people here should all know that is just " On paper". In real life, many indian landlords owns much more land than law regulates.

2.
such a obsolete land system is the biggest barrier to the development of South Asia.

In India, the land system deprives poor rural peasants's of the hope to own their own land and make them marginalized more in the tide of globalization. that is why so many rural India peasants become "maoists".

Morever, such a land distribution makes land too costly to industrialization. India government always find it very hard to fish out enough land for its "ambitious plan of industry zoos ".

In pakistan,Combined with tribe politics, rich Pakistani landocracy in fact monopolize political power. the clan of Bhutto the clan of Sharif are both the "tribal chieves" and top landlords. tribes are the base of their politcal influence while their enormous lands provide them enough wealth to run politics.

3. East Asia, including Japan.Two Koreas, PRC and Taiwan all used to have such similar obsolete pre-modern land distribution system. but they all broke such obstolete system before mid-1950s.
 

Rage

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1.IMHO, india's problem is that India has not solved the problems of land distribution.

In the name of "inviolability of private property" , pre-modern land distribution system in fact is still kept in south Asia,including India.

On paper, Indian law set the upper limit of land ownership. but Indian people here should all know that is just " On paper". In real life, many indian landlords owns much more land than law regulates.

2.
such a obsolete land system is the biggest barrier to the development of South Asia.

In India, the land system deprives poor rural peasants's of the hope to own their own land and make them marginalized more in the tide of globalization. that is why so many rural India peasants become "maoists".

Morever, such a land distribution makes land too costly to industrialization. India government always find it very hard to fish out enough land for its "ambitious plan of industry zoos ".

In pakistan,Combined with tribe politics, rich Pakistani landocracy in fact monopolize political power. the clan of Bhutto the clan of Sharif are both the "tribal chieves" and top landlords. tribes are the base of their politcal influence while their enormous lands provide them enough wealth to run politics.

3. East Asia, including Japan.Two Koreas, PRC and Taiwan all used to have such similar obsolete pre-modern land distribution system. but they all broke such obstolete system before mid-1950s.
Thomas Jefferson said:"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants".

India people got independent without violence.Theresults is that india after independence is same with the British india.

The only difference is the british governor was removed.

Indian people still ruled by Brahmen and their proxies.The low caste people' son are still low caste people.

The social status were inherited,which is the biggest inequality.

It tell us everything that India have the world's most wealthy people and at the same time india have the largest group of people under the international poverty line.

Fortunately,Indian people are devoted follower of gods.So the extravagant rulers could enjoy their ruling without concerning the poor farmers/dalits/slumdogs is going to overthrow them.

Yes, we have problems with land distribution. Yes, peasant farmers are exploited and profited from by capitalist landlords seeking to aggrandize themselves at their expense. Yes, the government encounters problems with claiming and acquiring land for SEZ's. But never in the history of independent India have we been subject to such such violent upheavals and political and economic vacillations as China. Never. Read carefully.

Just as our democracy has myriad problems, it also serves as a vanguard against excesses by the state. Which is why we have not witnessed anything as remotely catastrophic as the "Great Leap For[Back]ward" and the ensuing famine that claimed over 35 million lives, lasted for more than 3 years with a seemingly obtuse state oblivious to the concerns of its citizens and stuck in the nightmarish quagmire of static state policy in a situation of economic ruin that saw no end.... Which is why we have not experienced anything as remotely noisome as the 'Cultural Re(de)volution' that claimed, over the course of 10 years, 60 million lives, and resulted in nationwide chaos and disarray.

You see, although you consider yourselves a 'peoples' polity', you have really been subject to the whims and fancies of one man. I shudder to think at what might have happened if Zhang Chunqiao, Wang Hong wen and his 'Gang of Four' had 'seized power' after Mao's death. Or even if Hua Guofeng and the restorationists among the 'liberal' camp of the CCP had trampled Deng Xiaoping and held on to power post 1981. Your present successes are largely due to one man: Deng Xiaoping and his political brilliance: his vision of economic reform, and most importantly, his ability to outmaneuver his opponents. You see, your history has essentially been defined by a series of fortuitous events, make no mistake about that, and therefore hangs precariously in the balance. In India, the system precludes such vacillations. Because there is a plethora of leadership that is ultimately, always accountable to the people. I compare this to the two-trains analogy: one of a train that is moving slower but with far less chance of being derailed; the other of one that is presently moving faster on the right course, but that has frequently been derailed in the past, with calamitous effect. If this is the level of cadence the Chinese Peoples' Republic has been subject to throughout its 60 year history, I'd take democracy for sure.

Never in the litany of modern-day India, has India witnessed such famines on the scale of the 'Great Leap Forward', such violent excesses and retrogression as that of 'Cultural Devolution', or such recidivism and reactionism as that of cult-made personalities such as Mao The Dong . The worst excesses by the state, such as the Gujarat genocide of 2002, or the Babri masjid demolition in '92 have numbered in the thousands; and every time the government has got its comeuppance, whether it is in the erosion of popular support, the loss of elections, the exposure of corruption, the media lambaste of individuals, the gradual rejection of a communal animus, and even today the making of a party into an insignificant force that is on the sidelines of national electoral politics.

Ever wonder why so much seems to be going 'wrong' in India at any one time? It is because the media actually digs up and exposes [and on occasion, exaggerates] such things to keep our leaders in check. A glance at the Transparency International Ratings will show you that there is not much difference between the corruption standings of India and China: China ranks 72 on the scale with India at 84 [however, there are several countries that occupy a single rank in the intermediate range, making the difference between the two that of only 3 ranks]. Despite valiant attempts to keep them in the closet, regular upheavals still occur in China: take for example the statistic by the the BBC, the Economist, JSTOR and various other magazines doing grassroots research in 2007 that estimated there were "300-500" rural riots a day. Or if you prefer, the claim by Liu Jinguo, vice minister of the Ministry of Public Security [exaggerated of course], who posited that the Chinese police had dealt with "17,900 "mass incidents"" from January to September in 2006. Political fronting is a very real phenomenon in China: with the latent Uighur insurgency, the Tibetan uprising or rural/industrial discontent as recent events demonstrate.

Nobel laureate Amartya Sen has empirically proved that "in the great history of famines, no substantial famine has ever occurred in any independent and democratic country with a relatively free press". The is no exception. In the case of India and China, an analysis of the last 60 years will show that that argument extends to the magnitude of political upheavals as well. Nations rise, nations fall. You are presently on top. Don't knock it while you got it.
 

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