Will Tejas MK2 be equivalant to Rafale?

abhi_the _gr8_maratha

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as I have stated already there is no huge gap in ranges. But there is in payload. So I am saying to induct 4 squadron of rafale. For deep strike we will be dependent of su30mki.
 

Ashutosh Lokhande

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The greater the complexity in design, the more are the funds allocated; and the smell of money to play around with in the name of indigenisation is a beautiful feeling for many.

As far as a foreign equipment is concerned, the pluses and minuses are known and on that basis the aspirations are matrixed to suit the projected operational use.
are you hinting towards corruption?
 

Pulkit

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This is exactly what I wrote in post 68... we are on the same page....

@Pulkit tejas mk1 at present date is superior to any chinese fighter and addition of aesa will give it a clear superiority. That's what I am saying induct tejas mk1 and use them at pakistan border. 850km range is satisfactory against pakistan. And their will be mig29 and mirage , jaguar to help tejas.
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rafale doesn't have a much longer range than tejas. So su30mki is must at chinese border along with tejas mk2 and rafale.
 
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Ashutosh Lokhande

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@Ray, off-topic

just out of curiosity is that you next to Mr president?
 
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ersakthivel

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It's comparison between current rafale radar and future mk-2.. you think french will sit idle and dont improve their radar in coming 5 yrs?? It will improve drastically as 5 yrs as a good time(even india will upgrade rafale radad with new one if it finds it less competetive) .. and dont forget this.. india till date doesnt have a production quality AESA radar where france already installed thale AESA radar on rafale.. and please dont forget this.. rafale is already flying with french airforce from 2001.. Tejas Mk-1 (god knows when it will be Mk-2) not even one production quality aircraft is out.. why are we making this comparison now?? may be after 8 yrs , may be after both these aircrafts face a war , then only we can decide which is superior or inferior... till two months back all are comparing tejas with mirage and suddenly we started same argument between tejas and rafale with same set of points... :confused:
However much french try they can not increase the small space available for rafale radar even if they work for next ten years.

Rafale still does not have HMDS and integration of russian missiles. We have to pay extra for them. Not only that unit cost of all the rafale weapons are very costly.

You spend 20 billion plus to get a fighter that has atmost two thirds tracking and detection range of tejas mk-2 which is going to cost one fourth of the price of tejas (if we include total lifecycle cost plus upgradation cost after a decade or so)

Also for long range deep penetration mission we are going to have 272 su-30 MKis, which will be fully indigenised within a few years as per HAL claim.

Rafale is no 5th gen fighter to spend 20 billion plus dollars. Much worse after seven or eight years down the line,we will be simultaneously inducting both the 5th gen FGFA and rafale into service possibly at the same unit price.

rafale contract was relevant when tejas was not ready. Now with mk-1 ready and mk-2 in design there is no need.

we can restrict it to two or three squadrons for special deep strike need like Mirage-2000. certainly we dont need all of 126 rafales when we have tejas mk-2 -su-30 MKi combo available.
 

Jagdish58

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However much french try they can not increase the small space available for rafale radar even if they work for next ten years.

Rafale still does not have HMDS and integration of russian missiles. We have to pay extra for them. Not only that unit cost of all the rafale weapons are very costly.

You spend 20 billion plus to get a fighter that has atmost two thirds tracking and detection range of tejas mk-2 which is going to cost one fourth of the price of tejas (if we include total lifecycle cost plus upgradation cost after a decade or so)

Also for long range deep penetration mission we are going to have 272 su-30 MKis, which will be fully indigenised within a few years as per HAL claim.

Rafale is no 5th gen fighter to spend 20 billion plus dollars. Much worse after seven or eight years down the line,we will be simultaneously inducting both the 5th gen FGFA and rafale into service possibly at the same unit price.

rafale contract was relevant when tejas was not ready. Now with mk-1 ready and mk-2 in design there is no need.

we can restrict it to two or three squadrons for special deep strike need like Mirage-2000. certainly we dont need all of 126 rafales when we have tejas mk-2 -su-30 MKi combo available.
Much to the point and totally agreed , but IAF never thinks this way they want to induct foreign dud and cry for spare parts :taunt:
IAF is not indian airforce it is FAF foreign air force:frusty:
 

ersakthivel

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And so as Tejas and rafale are.. i really donno when tejas actually went into MMRCA class...
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No air force in the world has a three tier fighter force like medium, light and heavy. A heavy fighter for deep strike like SU-30 MKI and tejas mk-1 and mk-2 for light is enough.Especially we are nearing 5th gen age there is no need to spend 20 billion dollar on rafale.
And now you are on right track.. those are the tasks that were examined by IAF for MMRCA.. many other nations also did same.. and i put forward one PDF in my last post...
All other nations that ranked rafale no-1 , selected the gripen E (which is the same as tejas mk-2) goes to show that no one is ready to sink in huge money for 4.5th gen rafale, when a much economical fighter like gripen can do the job. Same is good for IAf too.
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true and ADA dont have plans to design a tejas twin engine aircraft (or Mk-X).. so this discussion should end.. And ADA and HAL saying MK-2 still falls under LCA category.. so no point in arguing..
ADA has AMCA as twin engined plane. IAF has Su-30 MKi as heavy twin enegined plane for dep strike nd air superiority. So there is no point in sinking in close to 20 billion dollar for no niche job performing twin engined rafales.

It is the fuel fraction (weight of internal fuel/weight of the plane ) which determines the range. Tejas mk-2 will have a higher fuel fraction than mk-1, much closer to rafale. SO you can call tejas mk-2 light or medium, but range will be nearly close to 80 percent of tejas in indian hot and humid conditions .
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"but tejas will have many advantage over rafale- better radar, lower rcs, lower weight enabling it for better maneuvers, and price 1/3 of rafale" its your post.. And what ever you mentioned there will applicable between Tejas and SU-30 MKI too(i.. am i wrong??
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Well tejas nad Su-30 MKI are to be used in combo in air defence. Su-30 MKI has big radars and sensors. Tejas has much lesser RCS with long range BVR missiles. rafale neither has a bigger radar than tejas nor longer range BVR missile than both tejas and Su-30 MKI

Now tell me who is trolling..
So you can understand that there are many voices against the hugely expensive 20 billion rafale deaal that brings no particular advantage to the fleet. For the same cost we caan have close to 300 plus tejas mk-2s.

So you can do the sum yourself and understand which fleet is better for air defence and strike(su-30 MKI is going to carry brahmos)
 
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Peter

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However much french try they can not increase the small space available for rafale radar even if they work for next ten years.

Rafale still does not have HMDS and integration of russian missiles. We have to pay extra for them. Not only that unit cost of all the rafale weapons are very costly.

You spend 20 billion plus to get a fighter that has atmost two thirds tracking and detection range of tejas mk-2 which is going to cost one fourth of the price of tejas (if we include total lifecycle cost plus upgradation cost after a decade or so)

Also for long range deep penetration mission we are going to have 272 su-30 MKis, which will be fully indigenised within a few years as per HAL claim.

Rafale is no 5th gen fighter to spend 20 billion plus dollars. Much worse after seven or eight years down the line,we will be simultaneously inducting both the 5th gen FGFA and rafale into service possibly at the same unit price.

rafale contract was relevant when tejas was not ready. Now with mk-1 ready and mk-2 in design there is no need.

we can restrict it to two or three squadrons for special deep strike need like Mirage-2000. certainly we dont need all of 126 rafales when we have tejas mk-2 -su-30 MKi combo available.
I heard that Tejas MK 2 is still in production. Till it has been delivered to our IAF we should have the Rafale.
 

abhi_the _gr8_maratha

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I heard that Tejas MK 2 is still in production. Till it has been delivered to our IAF we should have the Rafale.
design of tejas mk2 is complete. And it will be inducted till 2022. And till 2022 rafale won't gonna be inducted in full numbers, it will in just 2-3 squadrons.
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till then we can induct tejas mk1 and induct them at pakistan border and even at chinese border. Later this mk1 can be upgraded with radar ew suite, avionics etc. Of tejas mk2.
 

ersakthivel

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rafale is flying as a full-fledged aombat aircraft in french airforce unlike tejas which was flying in marthahalli and yelahanka of bangalore..


So hy did IAF and navy gave 200 plane order for tejas that is fit to fly only in mathahalli? Please explain. before induction rafale too would have been flying only in test range. Not all over the world.
I guess this discussion is on capabilities... it's our fault we didnt have indigenous fighters developed till 2000 and we have to pay for that.. as simple as that..
Right till 2000. But now it is 2014 and tejas is ready. We could have evolved marut -24 . But the import lobby kicked in. Funding to foreign engine maker who promised to build a better engine was denied. And if you go by the wikileaks we can clearly see who was fronting for whom in the jaguar(then DPSA) contract. Jaguar which won the race was not fit for the deep strike role is another scam . We have to spend our own resource to make its navigational attack aids work.
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that time also we were doing stupid comparison as mirage tested in real battle where as tejas yet to get FOC.... You do it now or may be after two yrs.. then i will accept what ever results comeout..
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Even F-22 was not tested in real battle. So we should not discuss it perhaps!!!!
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Please try to understand.. they actually have a AESA radar installed on rafale..
Also you try to understand IAF has not even seen that asea radar in MMRCA trials. And please try to understand that its diameter will be way smaller than tejas mk-2 due to smaller radome dia of rafale. So any day tejas mk-2 asea will be more powrful than rafale asea.
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.is it ??? link please..



production of crafts with AESA started around 2012.. by this time atleast one squadron should be ready..
Who told you production crafts with asea started in 2012?
As of today there is only one asea equiped rafael doing testing, just like only one meteor equipped rafale validating its integration.And as on date there is no rafale with HMDS integrated. tejas mk-1 had it for ages, using it to fire R-73.
 

ersakthivel

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I heard that Tejas MK 2 is still in production. Till it has been delivered to our IAF we should have the Rafale.
tejas mk-2 is not a brand new plane. It is an improvement over mk-1 with the same wing shape and wing loading.

It does not need 2500 test flights spanning 15 years like the new platform tejas mk-1 did.

take gripen NG. Funding given in 2012. demonstrator ready in 2014. And has started winning orders in foreign fighter competition even without a single plane getting inducted in sweedish airforce!!!

But the first gripen took twenty years to finish all the development trials including AMRAAM and close combat missile firing.

So it wont take 10 years to finish it. By the time rafale starts to roll out from HAL production line tejas mk-2 too will roll out. If there is any delay we can add a squadron of tejas mk-1 in the interim.The sum involved is 20 billion dollars!!!
 
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Santu

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However much french try they can not increase the small space available for rafale radar even if they work for next ten years.
Size is the not only the way to increase RADAR efficiency.. It can be improved by designing effective transmitter and receiver Blocks.. The better Your TR module reduces the sidelobe power the better the radar range and the better the noise cancellation in rx module, the better the detection is.. And we donno what type of Signal processing algorithms DRDO and Dassault(thales) use with radars.. So still there is scope for improvement...

Rafale still does not have HMDS and integration of russian missiles. We have to pay extra for them. Not only that unit cost of all the rafale weapons are very costly.
rafale's primary customer is french airforce and french is a NATO country.. so they are sure that they don't use russian missiles on board.. And they have capable missiles with them.. like MICA , meteor etc.. As we bought this R-73 etc from russia and that stock piled up with us , we want to put them on rafale too.. these are custom changes and we need to pay for that.. that's how market works..

You spend 20 billion plus to get a fighter that has atmost two thirds tracking and detection range of tejas mk-2 which is going to cost one fourth of the price of tejas (if we include total lifecycle cost plus upgradation cost after a decade or so)

Also for long range deep penetration mission we are going to have 272 su-30 MKis, which will be fully indigenised within a few years as per HAL claim.
If we have done it 6 yrs ago, we would have got it for half the price..

[/QUOTE]Rafale is no 5th gen fighter to spend 20 billion plus dollars. Much worse after seven or eight years down the line,we will be simultaneously inducting both the 5th gen FGFA and rafale into service possibly at the same unit price.[/QUOTE]

That's true.. I too accept it.. And don't forget that ideally they should be operational by this time.. n still IAF tells that they need rafales..
 

ersakthivel

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1.there are many news articles on web stating that rafale actually test fired meteor.. and the point is if it cant do that , it lost to EFT in major way and india wouldnt have ordered it knowing that BVR encounters will be future of warfare.. ideally AESA should have a range almost few km more than it BVR missile range.. The more the distance between aircraft and target the less the kill ratio.. and use some math to figure out the maximum distance that needed for a BVR launch..
Same applies to tejas mk-2. IAF knows like it did for rafale , tejas mk-1 and mk-2 cn fire any missile it specified for tejas. R-73 firing is an example.
Say in a decade from now a BVR missile gets produced which has just a few Km more range than the very low capacity ASEA on rafale, what will you do? Reject it?

How did you determine that "ideally" Asea should have just a few Km more radar range than missile range? Do you think typhoon guys are foolish to mount a massive asea for better situational awarenesss.
2. How many aircrafts participated in MMRCA deal?? And do u know any source that tells rafale failed in leh tests?? and you are sure that all five aircrafts performed well in hot conditions right??
That brings us to the hard facts session my friend. All platforms have issues. We should decide what is the best cost effective solution to our needs which will enhance our total fighting capability. here the tejas mk-2 is a much better choice than rafale especially for IAF which was very closely involved in the developmentl trials of both tejas mk-1 and mk-2, with hot trials in rajasthan, cold trials in leh, hot sea level trials in Goa . And all test pilots of tejas are from IAF. One test pilot suneet krishna has said tejas mk-1 itself is equal to the 40 million dollar plus piece upgrade mirage-2000. he has flown mirage-2000 also,
3. yeah comparision between rafale and tejas sounds some what like that.. tejas will enter into service almost 20 yrs after rafale.. it more like you are comparing a old aircraft (which is of 20 yrs old in service with a fresher :p) sounds odd and crazy right??
compare it strictly on the cost benefit vs capacity addition basis . Nothing else counts.
4.MMRCA deal supposed to closed around 5-6 yrs back.. That time no one knows whether tejas mk-1 will get IOC or not.. And you expcect Defence minitsry to trust in some foreign vendor (who also participated in MMRCA deal) to upgrade mk-1 to rafale standard???They could have done the same thing with gripen and set it as competitor to rafale right??
Right. But now tejas is finished. SO there is no need for 126 rafales. You should probably know that the original need for MMRCA was the request from IAF to buy 126 mirage-2000. Now with mk-1 itself going past the upgraded mirage-2000 where is the need for MMRCA? 272 su-30 MKis are enough for deep strike and air dominance . We can find a very productive use fo 20 billion to add some real caapcity to IAf fleet.
5.And u know waht?? we design flights as per requirements.. "I need top speed of 1.6 a spec by IAF and the moment we achieve that end of story.. even we can achieve higher with very lil modififcations without effecting any other parameters, our research labs never do that.. that's why our research is in such a bad condition..
Which research lab in france did anything to add more to rafale speed, which is mach 1.8? Our research labs have continually upgradd the avionics of tejas , added in flight refueling probe, did IAF request for bulkier more launch stress inducing R-73 in place of older R-60 initially specified by IAF. What else you want them to do even before finishing tejas development.

Who did all the improvement for jag and mig fleet? russians or french? It is he DRDO labs that did it.
6. on top of that , no real feedback came from IAF on tejas who finally has to operate the aircraft.. and guess how much time it will take if we have to update tejas again according to real time feedback??
Without feed back , Do you think they are fools to order 124 plus?
7. And bigger radars are equally dangerous as they will announce themselves with greater power.. "hey you.. I m over here.. Please fire a BVR" ...
having an optimum radar is required.. not a bigger radar..
It is the marketing ploy used by french to hide their smaller radar handicap. Please google the fighter radar range of all new fighters and find out the truth for yourself.

being detected at four times the radar range of a bigger radar applies equally for rafale.Deep in enemy territory bad situational awareness can be an unacceptable handicap for any fighter fleet.

It is not that dassault alone found the gospel of truth by shining the torch only as far as your eye can see. better situational awareness is the name of the new sensor game in airwarfare or any warfare.
8. rafale come with lot number of sensors systems (bets of them spectra EW and FSO) .. go though some dassault documents.. and please tell me comparable ones in Tejas..
All sensor systems are available off the shelf for integration for any other fighter in the world. rafale has no exclusive rights over their tech.Spectra like suit too can be developed by DRDO labs by the time tejas mk-2 enters service.
 
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ersakthivel

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Size is the not only the way to increase RADAR efficiency.. It can be improved by designing effective transmitter and receiver Blocks.. The better Your TR module reduces the sidelobe power the better the radar range and the better the noise cancellation in rx module, the better the detection is.. And we donno what type of Signal processing algorithms DRDO and Dassault(thales) use with radars.. So still there is scope for improvement...
That is common knowledge.Through out the life time of the fighter those TR modules are going to be improving all the time. But what counts is the space available for putting those high power TR modules. It will always be less in rafale than tejas mk-2 through out the lifetime of the fleet, A serious handicap.

rafale's primary customer is french airforce and french is a NATO country.. so they are sure that they don't use russian missiles on board.. And they have capable missiles with them.. like MICA , meteor etc.. As we bought this R-73 etc from russia and that stock piled up with us , we want to put them on rafale too.. these are custom changes and we need to pay for that.. that's how market works..
That higlights the peculiar needs of IAF. R-73 is a unique HMDS enabled deadly close combat missile, Thts why despite the availability of MICA and meteor IAF is asking french to integrate HMDS and R-73 like visually cued close combat missile in rafale.MICA and R-73 are different class of missile. French use Mica to do the job of R-73. But that does not mean both do the same role.


If we have done it 6 yrs ago, we would have got it for half the price..

How do you do it without proper evaluation and without price negotiation and TOT agreement contract being arrived at after tough negotiation?
Rafale is no 5th gen fighter to spend 20 billion plus dollars. Much worse after seven or eight years down the line,we will be simultaneously inducting both the 5th gen FGFA and rafale into service possibly at the same unit price.[/QUOTE]

That's true.. I too accept it.. And don't forget that ideally they should be operational by this time.. n still IAF tells that they need rafales..[/QUOTE]

IAF has other fighter options available to do the job of rafale like Su-30 MKI . You should look at the last ten annual budgets of IAF to see what is the worth of 20 billion dollars? We can fly close to 350 tejas mk-2 for the same price ith much cheaper operating cost and upgradation cost. And have blanket coverage over indian skies with much better ASEA radar and unbeatable advantage.

MMRCA made sense when tejas was not ready.But not right now. If IAF feels a niche need they can buy two or three squadrons of rafale straight away and use the rest of money for acquiring 200 plus tejas mk-2,

to replace the 400 plus aging Migs and jags,which also boosts its air defence capacity manyfolds heralding the arrival of mil aviation industry in india, instead of bleeding forex reserves through out the rafale fleet life.
 

abhi_the _gr8_maratha

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the more the composites the more complex design. Right now not a single uses 45% composites of its weight except tejas. In tejas mk2 it will be even increased. So it is stupidity to say that ADA don't have capability to build complex design just cause it doesn't made tejas as twin engine. ADA will deliver a twin engine if it is told to do so. IAF asked for single engine so ADA developed a single engine.
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there are many aircraft which uses twin engine but there is only one aircraft which uses 60% of its weight as composite. So that's why tejas mk2 as light weight is much more complex than tejas mk2 as medium weight.
 

Pulkit

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even m1a1 is not 100% indigenous.
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every one will blame arjun and tejas project but none will tell you that even israel was impressed by fire power, accuracy, armour etc. Technologies of arjun and they took it on their own tank merkava.
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tejas too, its mission computer exported to russia. ADA licenced its composite structure to airbus. And much more.
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though 90% indigenous is really impressive for third word country
Leave everything apart most of the technology involved in tejas is state of art ..
SAAB wanted to get into Tejas for this only...
Though i favour that but just from the point that MK2 becomes success....
So here is a foreign brand looking at you for technology and we are going evrywhere in the world...
"Bagal main bacha shehar main dhindora"
 

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