Will Tejas MK2 be equivalant to Rafale?

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

@Santu Do you directly jump to this page? Go back to first page, I have already posted why tejas mk2 have way better radar than rafale. Post number#7 of this thread.
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link please, about one squadron having aesa radar.
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if rafale was full combat then why until now it hasn't fired meteor bvr?
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tejas is better than mirage anytime. So marut was used in 1971battle, so does it means it is better than f22 , which, as per my knowledge doesn't engaged in a battle?
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all those spec of rafale are of cold weather. And its spec in indian hot and humid condition is not disclosed. So far we know four MMRCA failed leh trial. And tejas passed it.
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and if production started in 2012, then I don't see any possibility of radar upgrade till 10 years.

 

[Pulkit]

yes , but it was declared winner at the end...
So we are going against the better in the lot....

none of us knows that how rafale performed in MMRCA cause results are kept secret.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

yes , but it was declared winner at the end...
So we are going against the better in the lot....

cause of its price....

 

[Santu]

@Santu Do you directly jump to this page? Go back to first page, I have already posted why tejas mk2 have way better radar than rafale. Post number#7 of this thread.
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link please, about one squadron having aesa radar.
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if rafale was full combat then why until now it hasn't fired meteor bvr?
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tejas is better than mirage anytime. So marut was used in 1971battle, so does it means it is better than f22 , which, as per my knowledge doesn't engaged in a battle?
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all those spec of rafale are of cold weather. And its spec in indian hot and humid condition is not disclosed. So far we know four MMRCA failed leh trial. And tejas passed it.
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and if production started in 2012, then I don't see any possibility of radar upgrade till 10 years.

1.there are many news articles on web stating that rafale actually test fired meteor.. and the point is if it cant do that , it lost to EFT in major way and india wouldnt have ordered it knowing that BVR encounters will be future of warfare.. ideally AESA should have a range almost few km more than it BVR missile range.. The more the distance between aircraft and target the less the kill ratio.. and use some math to figure out the maximum distance that needed for a BVR launch..

2. How many aircrafts participated in MMRCA deal?? And do u know any source that tells rafale failed in leh tests?? and you are sure that all five aircrafts performed well in hot conditions right??

3. yeah comparision between rafale and tejas sounds some what like that.. tejas will enter into service almost 20 yrs after rafale.. it more like you are comparing a old aircraft (which is of 20 yrs old in service with a fresher ) sounds odd and crazy right??

4.MMRCA deal supposed to closed around 5-6 yrs back.. That time no one knows whether tejas mk-1 will get IOC or not.. And you expcect Defence minitsry to trust in some foreign vendor (who also participated in MMRCA deal) to upgrade mk-1 to rafale standard???They could have done the same thing with gripen and set it as competitor to rafale right??

5.And u know waht?? we design flights as per requirements.. "I need top speed of 1.6 a spec by IAF and the moment we achieve that end of story.. even we can achieve higher with very lil modififcations without effecting any other parameters, our research labs never do that.. that's why our research is in such a bad condition..

6. on top of that , no real feedback came from IAF on tejas who finally has to operate the aircraft.. and guess how much time it will take if we have to update tejas again according to real time feedback??

7. And bigger radars are equally dangerous as they will announce themselves with greater power.. "hey you.. I m over here.. Please fire a BVR" ...
having an optimum radar is required.. not a bigger radar..

8. rafale come with lot number of sensors systems (bets of them spectra EW and FSO) .. go though some dassault documents.. and please tell me comparable ones in Tejas..

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

@Santu its good if you post it here , I mean rafale firing meteor.
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we are talking about aesa radars and not pesa radar. Active electronically scanned array - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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at least know about aesa radar. Aesa radar send signals which are hardly detectable. Less powerful radar will make it even harder to detect.
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@ersakthivel will tell you more about performance of rafale in india.
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there is no major difference in tejas mk2 and MCAs cause if you changed its air frame to all metal it will be equal to medium weight and to carry it , we will have to add one more engine.
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tejas will have sensors of similar characteristic.
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when did I say we were having a rafale compared tejas at 2007? But we will have soon so decrease number of rafale to 4 squadrons
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if all goes right then tejas will be inducted near 2025, and I don't see any problem in it. And will india rafale be 20 year old? No. Actually many will not have been inducted till 2025.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

lets assume, we inducted 6 squadron of rafale. And minimum availability at any time is 75% so 4 squadron will be available at war time.
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on other hand if we have 4 squadron, 3 will be available and instead of later 2 squadron we can induct 6 squadron of tejas mk2 so availability at war is 4 squadron.
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so by this equation we can have 7 squadron available at war instead of 4.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

tejas mk2 have advantage of better radar and then you will say better radar will send more signal. If it will have been advantage of rafale then everyone would have said rafale will shoot tejas first.
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but tejas will have many advantage over rafale- better radar, lower rcs, lower weight enabling it for better maneuvers, and price 1/3 of rafale.
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remember the war of 1965 and much capable but heavy weight pakistani sombre fighters defeated by indian light weight gnat fighter. Weight is important in north and north-east border cause of himalayas. So this also suits tejas mk2.

 

[Santu]

@Santu its good if you post it here , I mean rafale firing meteor

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French Air Force's Rafale completes Meteor missile test firing - Airforce Technology
Rafale to expand Meteor missile testing - 5/16/2013 - Flight Global

at least know about aesa radar. Aesa radar send signals which are hardly detectable. Less powerful radar will make it even harder to detect

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That's what i told there of course in a sarcastic way ...

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@ersakthivel will tell you more about performance of rafale in india.

I trust ministry of defence and IAF more than anyone..
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there is no major difference in tejas mk2 and MCAs cause if you changed its air frame to all metal it will be equal to medium weight and to carry it , we will have to add one more engine.

As simple as that??? Even without engine change ADA struggled to redesign MK-2..

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tejas will have sensors of similar characteristic

Oh did i miss the discussion on this by any chace here?? I heard that Tejas has an advanced EW suit but i donno that it's comparable to spectra.. I know tejas has sensors but i never knew it's as capable as FSO on rafale.. sounds interesting..
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when did I say we were having a rafale compared tejas at 2007? But we will have soon so decrease number of rafale to 4 squadrons
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if all goes right then tejas will be inducted near 2025, and I don't see any problem in it. And will india rafale be 20 year old? No. Actually many will not have been inducted till 2025.

That is when MMRCA deal is suppose to get negotiated.. And if it was on time by this time we wouldnt be talking like this about rafale..

http://kovy.free.fr/temp/rafale/pdf/12332.pdf

here is a complete analysis giver br @Drsomnath999 in pak def forum.. dont look at comp of rafale and su-35.. just stick to rafale's capabilities..

http://-----------/threads/why-su-35-wouldnt-pose-any-serious-threat-to-indias-rafale.240511/

 

[Santu]

And here is some stuff..

A wide range of smart and discrete sensors - Dassault Aviation

 

[Santu]

tejas mk2 have advantage of better radar and then you will say better radar will send more signal. If it will have been advantage of rafale then everyone would have said rafale will shoot tejas first.
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but tejas will have many advantage over rafale- better radar, lower rcs, lower weight enabling it for better maneuvers, and price 1/3 of rafale.
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remember the war of 1965 and much capable but heavy weight pakistani sombre fighters defeated by indian light weight gnat fighter. Weight is important in north and north-east border cause of himalayas. So this also suits tejas mk2.

Ohh.. is it.. Then we dont need AMCA and FGFA also.. As they are heavy fighter and they cant maneuver as easily as tejas , its better not to by them.. even scrap SU-30 MKI and have 50 squadrons of tejas.. then chinese will come with SU-35 and we will start another freedom moment.. and yeah price.. even SU-30 is lil expensive than tejas.. and as tejas radar is powerful each tejas will shoot 6 BVRAAM's and will destroy all SU-35 ,T-50 and SU-30 and their copies on the earth with just 300 missiles.. And also one other solution is there from u.. if we want heavy fighter lets just not use composites and put extra engine.. this makes tejas a real beauty.. seriously..

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

@Santu so tejas have aesa advantage
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wrong! Engine for mk2 is not same. And who told you ADA struggled? There is new engine, radar, EW suite etc. So there is designi change for mk2.
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EW quite will be advanced and well comparable to spectra.
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so rafale was full combat from 2001 and it tested its main missile in 2012. As I know it doesn't tested meteor in 2007 , while MMRCA deal. So I also can say tejas is full combat from 2001 as it have filed more than 2600 without crash and fired complex r73.
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I think you should first read @ersakthivel at tejas mk1 thread. Cause hail as much you can but what if its systems have problem in hot and humid indian condition like t90 tanks.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

@Santu stick to rafale vs tejas mk2.
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AMCA and FGFA are different league fighter. When I told you to buy tejas mk2 instead su30mki, mca,fgfa?
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su30mki will be used for air superiority. Do you even know classification of fighters as bomber, mmrca, air superiority, interceptor.
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we are talking about MMRCA. That's possible alternative for mirage. now stop using your ultra fultra logic
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again I never said to lower weight of a fighter what I said is why tejas can be compared to rafale.
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are you trolling ? Or not reading properly?
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when your logic turn to wrong then you are calling it satire..... Lol

 

[Santu]

@Santu so tejas have aesa advantage

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wrong! Engine for mk2 is not same. And who told you ADA struggled? There is new engine, radar, EW suite etc. So there is designi change for mk2.

ohh.. i m sorry.. typo.. they actually struggled to get IOC for tejas... really sorry.. it's my mistake..
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EW quite will be advanced and well comparable to spectra

proof?? no one knows.. except ADA ,HAL and may be you..
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so rafale was full combat from 2001 and it tested its main missile in 2012. As I know it doesn't tested meteor in 2007 , while MMRCA deal. So I also can say tejas is full combat from 2001 as it have filed more than 2600 without crash and fired complex r73.

by the i guess recently tejas fired r73.. And before meteor rafale succesfully test fired all other missiles possible (including MICA) well before 2007..

And read this..

https://www.rusi.org/downloads/assets/25_Meteor_for_sale.pdf

This doc clearly states that first real meteor weapon will be delivered by MBDA by end of 2012 and u expect rafale to get certification of successful meteor firing.. ....
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I think you should first read @ersakthivel at tejas mk1 thread. Cause hail as much you can but what if its systems have problem in hot and humid indian condition like t90 tanks.

Yes.. if the system performs well we have no issues.. mig-21, mirage ,su-30MKI are examples.. and if it fails then the problem comes.. like T90.. And whats the guarantee that it will not be the case with Tejas?? As you aslo hail tejas???

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Maneuver of su30mki is better than tejas. And russian are even ready to gave up stealth for maneuver for t50. So maneuver of tejas is worth admirable cause su30mki beat f15c with amazing 9:1 kill and american pilot said that its cause of maneuver of su30mki

 

[Santu]

@Santu stick to rafale vs tejas mk2.

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AMCA and FGFA are different league fighter. When I told you to buy tejas mk2 instead su30mki, mca,fgfa?

And so as Tejas and rafale are.. i really donno when tejas actually went into MMRCA class...
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su30mki will be used for air superiority. Do you even know classification of fighters as bomber, mmrca, air superiority, interceptor.

And now you are on right track.. those are the tasks that were examined by IAF for MMRCA.. many other nations also did same.. and i put forward one PDF in my last post...
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we are talking about MMRCA. That's possible alternative for mirage. now stop using your ultra fultra logic

true and ADA dont have plans to design a tejas twin engine aircraft (or Mk-X).. so this discussion should end.. And ADA and HAL saying MK-2 still falls under LCA category.. so no point in arguing..
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again I never said to lower weight of a fighter what I said is why tejas can be compared to rafale.

"but tejas will have many advantage over rafale- better radar, lower rcs, lower weight enabling it for better maneuvers, and price 1/3 of rafale" its your post.. And what ever you mentioned there will applicable between Tejas and SU-30 MKI too(i.. am i wrong??
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are you trolling ? Or not reading properly?
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when your logic turn to wrong then you are calling it satire..... Lol

Now tell me who is trolling..

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

@Santu
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actually its not fault of ada, IAF told them to design single engine multi role.
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yeah, but as far I know, super sukhoi will have age over tejas mk2 cause of firing brahmos, (not to confuse it with brahmos m), it will have aesa. And its a air superiority fighter.
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so gripen NG too is single seat and was a contender in MMRCA, so tejas is actually capable of being MMRCA contestant

 

[Jagdish58]

Is this not an unfair comparizon LCA MK2 can be better for india , reason because it is home build fighter & we need not fear of poor after sales solution & cost escalation

50 LCA mk2 on air will be great compare to 20 Rafale or Su-30MKI on ground under repair & maintanance

 

[Pulkit]

That is a very balancing scenario ...
WIth Tejas Mk2 unavailability of spare will not be there .
our squad size will improve...

we can target rafale only Towards China with th mix of sukhoi and Tejas mk2...
Wheras Tejas Mk1 Mk2 and Sukhoi can be completely devoted to Pakistan...

Rafale better range will required in case of China only ...
Pakistan can be covered by Tejas MK2...
Numbers do matter.....

lets assume, we inducted 6 squadron of rafale. And minimum availability at any time is 75% so 4 squadron will be available at war time.
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on other hand if we have 4 squadron, 3 will be available and instead of later 2 squadron we can induct 6 squadron of tejas mk2 so availability at war is 4 squadron.
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so by this equation we can have 7 squadron available at war instead of 4.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

@Pulkit tejas mk1 at present date is superior to any chinese fighter and addition of aesa will give it a clear superiority. That's what I am saying induct tejas mk1 and use them at pakistan border. 850km range is satisfactory against pakistan. And their will be mig29 and mirage , jaguar to help tejas.
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rafale doesn't have a much longer range than tejas. So su30mki is must at chinese border along with tejas mk2 and rafale.

 

[Pulkit]

Single engine or twin engine was not the criteria ... twin engine is favoured for sure ...

Tejas Mk2 will (futuristic) have almost all the capabilities which rafale has ... even a few extra if everything goes as planned...

Rafale and Su-30 MKI cannot be confused...
The payload carrying ability and deep peneteration in terms of range will be surely more in SU ...

but there will be not Major difference when it comes to conflict with Pakis ...
Only impact it will have is with China....
We are not saying that Tejas will be better in all the terms but atleast comparable with Rafale...

Like Abhi said radar RCS Maneuvers and price are few of the many factors favouring Tejas and top of it Indian product...
No dependency on foreign company for spare and etc.....
Sukhoi has its own role to play...
but role or Rafale can be or will be easily done by Tejas mk2.....

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And so as Tejas and rafale are.. i really donno when tejas actually went into MMRCA class...
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And now you are on right track.. those are the tasks that were examined by IAF for MMRCA.. many other nations also did same.. and i put forward one PDF in my last post...
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true and ADA dont have plans to design a tejas twin engine aircraft (or Mk-X).. so this discussion should end.. And ADA and HAL saying MK-2 still falls under LCA category.. so no point in arguing..
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"but tejas will have many advantage over rafale- better radar, lower rcs, lower weight enabling it for better maneuvers, and price 1/3 of rafale" its your post.. And what ever you mentioned there will applicable between Tejas and SU-30 MKI too(i.. am i wrong??
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Now tell me who is trolling..[/QUOTE @abhi_the _gr8_maratha