WIKILEAKS- UPA wanted to gift Siachen to Pakistan. Army opposed. Sour

Discussion in 'Politics & Society' started by GPM, Apr 21, 2013.

  1. GPM

    GPM Tihar Jail Banned

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    1. (C) SUMMARY: Deputy National Security Advisor Leela
    Ponappa and Joint Secretary (Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran)
    T.C.A. Raghavan, in separate meetings with visiting
    Ambassador Patterson, indicated that the GOI is seized from
    top to bottom with the unrest in Jammu and Kashmir, but is
    confident that it has the structures in place to address the
    situation. The Pakistani infrastructure facilitating
    infiltration and terrorism in Jammu and Kashmir remains
    intact. Extremist groups active in Jammu and Kashmir are
    becoming indistinguishable from those operating in the
    northwest of Pakistan and pose a regional threat. The GOI is
    ready to continue dialogue with the GOP but the Kabul embassy
    bombing and Pakistan's support for cross border terrorism is
    making it difficult for India to sustain its commitment to
    normalization of relations. In private meetings, the GOP has
    acknowledged the gravity of the Kabul attack and promised a
    report. The political drama in Pakistan is drawing attention
    from the Line of Control. Raghavan and Ponappa said that
    people-to-people contact between the countries is thriving
    but there are zero military-to-military exchanges. Raghavan
    reported little progress on the Siachen dispute. END SUMMARY.


    India ready to talk, but Pakistan must address terrorism
    -----------------------
    2.(C) In visiting Ambassador Anne Patterson's separate August
    27th meetings with GOI Deputy National Security Advisor Leela
    Ponappa and Joint Secretary (Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iran)
    T.C.A. Raghavan, both interlocutors expressed the GOI's
    willingness to work with the new GOP. Ponappa said that
    "anything positive from them would be well received." Asked
    about President Musharraf's exit, Ponappa replied, "We deal
    with whomever is there. We've seen this before, it's a
    pattern, you can almost graph it," but pointed out that
    Pakistanis can take justifiable pride that this change of
    power took place through the constitutional process.
    Raghavan said of Musharraf, "His time had run out. He could
    never consistently follow a policy to make an impact
    domestically." Raghavan stated that the 4th round of
    Composite Dialogue "left a good feeling" which led to the
    positive beginning to the 5th round. In his view, there
    remains a strong consensus in both countries to normalize
    relations. He reported that Foreign Secretary Menon
    communicated to Foreign Minister Qureshi that the Kabul blast
    and spikes in incidents along the LOC will have to be
    addressed, and got a positive response. Asked for more
    detail about PM Singh's meeting with PM Gilani in Colombo on
    August 2, Raghavan replied that there is political consensus
    on normalization but PM Singh, while personally committed,
    can not sustain normalization in the face of terror attacks.

    Kabul embassy bombing "soured everybody on Pakistan"
    ----------------------
    3.(C) Raghavan appreciated prior information from the USG and
    the Afghan government on the specific threat to its Embassy
    in Kabul. He told Ambassador Patterson that if it were not
    for these tips, the barriers at the Indian Embassy in Kabul
    would not have been constructed before the attack and
    casualties would have been far worse. He said, "The Kabul
    attack soured everyone on Pakistan." He reported that the
    last round of the Composite Dialogue was dominated by
    discussion of terrorism and that the GOI made it clear that
    such violence is unacceptable and will damage Indo-Pak
    relations. On GOP complicity in the Kabul attack, he said,
    "we can't tell at what level decisions are happening, but our
    own sense is something like this wouldn't happen on its own."
    He confirmed that it appears the Haqqani network implemented
    the attack. He said in private meetings Pakistan accepts the
    gravity of the bombing. Raghavan reported that Gilani did
    promise PM Singh a report on the Kabul attack. He added that
    the Composite Dialogue was fruitful, but that "There is time
    for that. Right now, we must see what happens on the

    NEW DELHI 00002401 002 OF 003


    investigation."


    DGOI siezed with Jammu and Kashmir unrest
    -----------------------
    4.(C) Queried on Jammu and Kashmir, Ponappa divided the
    situation into two parts: on the domestic side, she told
    Ambassador Patterson emphatically that "the government is
    seized with the issue from top to bottom," and that the GOI
    "has in place the structures to deal with it." She said, "We
    have managed to disaggregate the problem and we will use soft
    power and hard power to solve it." The Ambassador asked
    Ponappa if elections were likely to be postponed due to the
    violence in Jammu and Kashmir, to which she replied that she
    was not sure.

    The external component in Jammu and Kashmir
    -------------------------
    5.(C) On the external side of the Jammu and Kashmir issue,
    Ponappa said that one "can't distinguish between Jammu and
    Kashmir and northwest Pakistan as far as the terrorists are
    concerned." She emphasized that the extremist groups
    infiltrating Kashmir are flexible, mobile, and regional. They
    are a threat to the whole region, including the U.S. mission
    in Afghanistan. She speculated that Jamaatul Daawa (JuD) may
    be "the center of it all, spawning more groups." She pointed
    out that Musharraf, though he decreased infiltration across
    the frontier, did not dismantle the infrastructure that
    facilitated it. She said that the terrorist infrastructure
    appears stronger than before, and must be taken apart.
    Raghavan expressed concern about the lack of control in
    Pakistan's northwest areas. He argued that the Inter-Services
    Intelligence (ISI) had over the decades become used to the
    old formula of cutting deals in the Federally Administered
    Tribal Areas (FATA) whenever trouble brewed there. It was a
    tried and tested formula. The problem, in his view, is that
    the people the ISI now cuts deals with are not the same
    people the ISI is used to. The leadership in the FATA has
    changed, and the old formula no longer works. Raghavan added
    that the recent increase in suicide bombings gives a clear
    signal to the Pakistani government that it can not relent on
    its efforts now.

    Pakistan's political drama eclipses distressing Line of
    Control issues
    ------------------------
    6.(C) Raghavan said infiltration this year was higher than it
    has been for years. He believes political drama within
    Pakistan is eclipsing the deteriorating frontier situation.
    Raghavan indicated that the GOI sees the Pakistani military
    stopping infiltration in some areas at certain times while
    allowing some people to cross over at other times. He
    believed that the military is picking and choosing between
    Jihadi groups. The same groups are showing up on the
    Pakistan-Afghanistan border, he said. Raghavan called for UN
    action to list JuD as a terrorist organization. He added
    that reports of Islamist plots against the Beijing Olympics
    may make China more willing to support such measures.

    Pakistan's political drama - anything is possible
    --------------------------
    7.(C) Ponappa asked Ambassador Patterson about the
    possibility of the coalition government making a comeback.
    They agreed that anything seems possible at this point,
    including a PML presidential candidate, or Nawaz's candidacy.
    Raghavan called the political line-up in Pakistan "a menu of
    bad options." "There are a lot of good guys, but what are
    the political options?" he asked. He said that there is not
    enough focus in Pakistan on getting policy right. Asked how
    to fix that, especially in light of presidential campaigns in
    Pakistan, Raghavan replied that "Pakistan must help itself.
    Everything we say is held in suspicion." Raghavan told
    Ambassador Patterson that the GOI made a specific policy
    decision to "keep quiet on Pakistan" after May 2007, when "we

    NEW DELHI 00002401 003 OF 003


    realized no political progress was to be made" through
    exchanging statements.


    Contact and exchange between India and Pakistan
    ----------------------------
    8.(C) Ambassador Patterson asked about parliamentary
    exchanges between India and Pakistan, to which Ponappa
    replied "India-Pakistan relations are not as one-dimensional
    as Bollywood makes them look," saying that there is a 'reat
    deal of contact and people-to-people exchange. She added
    that she believes there is a fair amount of informal contact
    between Members of Parliament (MPs). She noted that a South
    Asia Association for Regional Cooperation (SAARC) provision
    allows MPs from member countries to travel visa-free
    throughout the region. Raghavan lamented that there is
    currently no military contact between India and Pakistan,
    though India has suggested "soft" steps like music or sports
    exchanges but has always been turned down. Pakistan even
    declined India's invitation to the world military games, he
    added. Raghavan noted that the Institute of Strategic
    Studies in Islamabad and the Institute of Defense Studies in
    India have signed an MOU, which may encourage peripheral
    contact between the two defense establishments.

    Sir Creek and Siachen disputes
    -----------------------------
    9.(C) Raghavan reported that there has been good progress on
    the Sir Creek dispute, but that now "the mood in Pakistan is
    too self-absorbed to work on it." On Siachen, he reported
    that the Indian Army has drawn a line with its political
    leadership. It has told the GOI that withdrawal was
    tantamount to ceding the area to Pakistan due to the
    difficulty of retaking it should Pakistan occupy it.
    Instead, the GOI is attempting to "soften" the issue by
    proposing joint military projects such as environmental clean
    up or trekking. There has been no Pakistani response to
    these suggestions, he noted.

    10.(U) Ambassador Patterson has cleared this cable.

    MULFORD


    https://www.wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08NEWDELHI2401_a.html
    ***
    This is our shameless, spineless govt. It follows Nehruvian line: Not a blade of grass grows there.
     
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  3. anoop_mig25

    anoop_mig25 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: WIKILEAKS- UPA wanted to gift Siachen to Pakistan. Army opposed.

    Well i didn`t get why our successive GoI (including BJP) are always trying to placate Pakistan by offering land (or any others means) like SIR creek issue or Siachien , they think Pakistan establishment would be satisfied with it and give up demand of Jaamu&kashmir .

    Why on earth they think pakistan as a dissatisfed brother separated form family dissatisfied with partition
     
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  4. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Re: WIKILEAKS- UPA wanted to gift Siachen to Pakistan. Army opposed.

    The PM and his Govtf was for demilitarisation.

    One cannot blame them because they has no clue about war or the military.

    Prime Minister Manmohan Singh had said that the two countries should work to convert the highest battlefield into a “mountain of peace”.

    Poor man, he has no idea of how the defence of a nation is crafted. But he is good at political brownie points of meaningless rhetoric!

    Maybe he has forgotten Kargil!

    Siachen: What is the strategic or diplomatic rationale for demilitarization?

    The government hasn’t spoken about it. The opposition seems to be oblivious to the goings on. The print and electronic media have chosen to remain silent. But the Atlantic Council, a US-based think tank in its Press release on 02 Oct 2012 announced that a group of retired senior officials, military officers and diplomats of India and Pakistan “have agreed on a proposal regarding the demilitarization of the Siachen area”. The project it appears had been “jointly organized by the University of Ottawa and the South Asia Center at the Atlantic Council”.

    No one seems to know if this Track 2 effort had been undertaken at the behest of Government of India, Pakistan or some other third party. However one of the team members has confirmed that the team had received briefings in New Delhi from Government officials. It appears that India and Pakistan have been engaged in military-level Track 2 talks for the past 12 months, with the delegates of the two sides meeting in Dubai, Bangkok and finally in Lahore in September. Smaller “sub-group” meetings in Chiang Mai (Thailand) and Palo Alto (California) have also featured in the Track 2 process. All these meetings, the move of both the teams back and forth would have cost some money. Who footed the bill? Was it India, Pakistan, Atlantic Council, or the University of Ottawa? What was the interest?

    Is it a normal practice in diplomacy for a foreign think tank sponsored Track 2 team consisting of individuals selected by the sponsoring agency to be briefed by Government officials? Is it appropriate for the team to go to an inimical foreign country and agree on demilitarization or to agree on the modalities for demilitarization of an area which it had been holding for years without the Government deciding on the very basic question whether to withdraw from the position or not? Or has the Government taken a decision to withdraw from Siachen without taking the Parliament or the opposition into confidence? Which of these are true? The people of this country have a right to know the truth.

    Three countries have interest in areas in and around Siachen. This aspect will have a major bearing on the strategic importance of Siachen and India’s decision to demilitarize the area (See map). The areas concerned are the Northern Area, Gilgit, Baltisatan, Saltoro, Shaksgam Valley and Aksai Chin. The Gilgit and Baltistan located to the immediate west of Saltoro is a part of Pakistan with majority Shia population. Pakistan is actively considering a proposal to lease the region to Beijing for 50 years. The Sakshgam valey immediately to the North of Saltoro has already been ceded to China by Pakistan illegally. Xinjiang lies to the immediate North of Sakshgam. Aksai Chin which is occupied by China lies to the South East of Sakshgam Valley.

    The Nurba Valley and Ladakh leading to J&K are hemmed in on three sides by Baltistan, Sakshgam Valley and Aksai Chin. If the proposal to lease the Gilgit – Baltistan area goes through and India withdraws from Siachen, all the three areas right up to Xinjiang will be under Chinese control.

    The Karakoram Highway which runs through these areas connects China's Xinjiang region with Pakistan's Northern Areas across the Karakoram mountain range, through the Khunjerab Pass. China and Pakistan are also planning to link the Karakoram Highway to the southern port of Gwadar in Balochistan through the Chinese-aided Gwadar-Dalbandin railway, which extends up to Rawalpindi. The Karakoram Highway passes through an area where China, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, India and Pakistan come as close to each other as 250 kms and has its own strategic importance and significance to India.

    Looking at the map in the context of the above, does anyone have any doubt as to which of the three countries would benefit the most by vacating Saltoro? Is Pakistan trying to help their all-weather friend to be able to dominate the entire area to the North of our areas of interest? Saltoro ridge acts as a separator between Pakistan (Baltistan – Gilgit) and China. Do we want them to link up by demilitarizing the area? Doesn’t vacating Saltoro threaten the security of Nubra Valley?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The entire country believes that the Military is occupying Siachen because it belongs to it and rightly so. The 1972 Shimla Agreement clearly stated that from the NJ9842 the boundary would proceed "thence north to the glaciers." This implies that Saltoro ridge is well within Indian Territory. Is it necessary for a country to go and sign an agreement with a neighboring country for unilaterally withdrawing its forces from its own territory? What are the compulsions warranting India to concede to Pakistan’s demand for withdrawing from Saltoro ridge? Even assuming that the agreement provides adequate safeguards against Pakistan occupying Saltoro ridge after India’s withdrawal, does the agreement provide any guarantee against China occupying the Saltoro ridge and threatening India especially after the Baltistan – Gilgit areas have been leased to it by Pakistan? Would we not run into another mess should China choose to say that it has nothing to do with the agreement signed between India and Pakistan?

    Withdrawal from Saltoro and Siachen would threaten Ladakh and will expose important mountain passes that are gateways to Ladakh and onto Kashmir to the aggressor including terrorists. Will that not require establishing a fresh defence line along the Ladakh Range to successfully defend our areas of interest? What will be the requirement of troops for such a venture and at what cost? Has an appraisal of the military requirement in the event of demilitarization of Siachen been obtained from the Army Chief? How will such a withdrawal impact our security in relation to the Karakoram Highway?

    As experienced in the past, aren’t issues such as cross border terrorism in J &K, terrorist training camps across, funding and arming terrorists in J&K to destabilize the country much more serious than Sir Creek or Siachen? Why then are we being soft on Pakistan by agreeing to unilaterally withdraw from Siachen while Pakistan continues to aid and abet terrorism right inside our country? Has Pakistan done anything in the past to exhibit its sincerity or to be able to trust them? Have we sought any guarantees or quid pro quo in the other major areas of our concern?

    Is the Government of India prepared to give a guarantee that the Indian Army would not be required to recapture Saltoro ridge should Pakistan or China occupy the position after India vacates it or if Indian soil is threatened? If not, would the soldiers of the Indian Army be forced to shed blood for a mess up by the arm chair politicians and bureaucrats who are least concerned with war fighting or its cost to human life and to the country?

    Lack of strategic culture and the worth of a non-professional generalist bureaucracy is showing up once again. Were the Service Chiefs parts of the decision making process in whatever role that the Government had played in the Track 2 diplomacy? Isn’t the military a concerned party? Why then are they not part of the decision making process?

    It only goes to prove that our bureaucrats and politicians would never hesitate to shed your blood for their stupidities and ambitions.

    Siachen: What is the strategic or diplomatic rationale for demilitarization? by In Search of Propriety : V Mahalingam's blog-The Times Of India
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2013
  5. GPM

    GPM Tihar Jail Banned

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    Re: WIKILEAKS- UPA wanted to gift Siachen to Pakistan. Army opposed.

    It is honoured tradition of CONgress. First it gifted half of J&K to Pakistan, then converted it into an international dispute by going to UNO. Then Aksai Chin was gifted away to China
     
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  6. JBH22

    JBH22 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: WIKILEAKS- UPA wanted to gift Siachen to Pakistan. Army opposed.

    Our Political masters don't believe that we have given enough land to Pakistanis. Give them Siachen and this will only grow the appetite of these lunatics across the border.

    No Quarter to be given or taken to Pakistan :)
     
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  7. parijataka

    parijataka Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: WIKILEAKS- UPA wanted to gift Siachen to Pakistan. Army opposed.

    Kangrace party ki jai !
     
  8. dhananjay1

    dhananjay1 Regular Member

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    Re: WIKILEAKS- UPA wanted to gift Siachen to Pakistan. Army opposed.

    They gifted Sindh, and more than half of Punjab and Bengal to Jihadis, they won't really care about Siachen.
     
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  9. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    Re: WIKILEAKS- UPA wanted to gift Siachen to Pakistan. Army opposed.

    I thought Wikileaks' goal was to embarrass the US State Department. Maybe there is more to it.
     
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  10. Patriot

    Patriot Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: WIKILEAKS- UPA wanted to gift Siachen to Pakistan. Army opposed.

    This is what happens when personal cum pleasure secretary types get power in their hand. Misery of this great country is that snakes in arm are ruling it. Thanks for IA for countreing these thugs, they may notmind even donating it for some political mileage or selling the country & it's interests for their personal benefits.

    It's time, these snakes to be terminated.
     
  11. Patriot

    Patriot Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: WIKILEAKS- UPA wanted to gift Siachen to Pakistan. Army opposed.

    Till it's leaking the core embarrasment is of US because all these leaks are in some way associated with US only AFAIK, rest are facing side effects only.

    PS: my personal take wikileaks are all staged, used by some very clever people. It has become a platform to enact various nefarious designs.
     
  12. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    Re: WIKILEAKS- UPA wanted to gift Siachen to Pakistan. Army opposed.

    First, Congress didn't gift half of J&K to Pakistan. It was tumultuous Maharaja Hari Singh.
    Aksai China was not gifted by India either, but Pakistan gifted it to China.

    ===

    Without reading the leaked cables, it is quite clear that this is a clear case of hoodwinking Americans. We did it during Kargil a decade back.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2013
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  13. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Re: WIKILEAKS- UPA wanted to gift Siachen to Pakistan. Army opposed.

    JL Nehru, the Great Statesman accepted the ceasefire call , even as the Indian Army was linking Uri to Punch and had to be called back, and so he did gift away half of J&K.

    Incidentally, he was from the Congress.

    He also gifted away Aksai Chin. He was either clueless as to what the Chinese were upto, or he thought his international stature would weather and wither the storm. He is instrumental also to keep the Indian Armed Forces to the WWII standards with no progress and in fact truncated, much having gone to Pakistan during the exchange of forces and equipment.

    He has a philanthropic bent of mind - a real socialist and a real international hero!

    How did we hoodwink during Kargil?
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2013
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  14. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    Re: WIKILEAKS- UPA wanted to gift Siachen to Pakistan. Army opposed.

    Surely, the greater blame lies with Hari Singh and as a saving grace Nehru did get us rest of the landmass of the union.

    Look at Pak, despite getting half of Kashmir, they lost half their country, and of the remaining, half ie Bstan and KP is in an insurgency

    " Indian officials spoke of knowing roughly how many nuclear bombs the Pakistanis possessed, from which they calculated that a doomsday nuclear volley would kill 300 [million] to 500 million Indians while annihilating all 120 million Pakistanis. The Indians would thus claim victory , Branch has quoted Clinton as saying.-"

    'India felt it would win nuclear war with Pakistan' - World - DNA
     
  15. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Re: WIKILEAKS- UPA wanted to gift Siachen to Pakistan. Army opposed.

    How is Hari Singh responsible for the ceasefire?

    He has handed over his State to India.

    Thereafter, it was India's business to ensure the integrity of the land mass.

    In other words, good old JL Nehru!

    As far as Pakistan is concerned, they are born losers and are losing whatever they have got. How is it connected with JL Nehru and his gifting of a part of J&K and all of Aksai Chin?



    And you feel that the USA swallowed it hook, line and sinker?

    If you ask me, they know more of India than many in authority here know!

    Have you not read of US moles in high placed areas?

    Manmohan Singh, who is a pacifist wanting peace at all costs, would have fallen prey and joined JL Nehru's class and fate, but for the Army and he was wise to see reason!

    There was a huge vested interest lobby of politicians, newsmen, bureaucrats and retired Army Joes, who tried hoodwink him. In the end Manmohan winked at them and put the hood over their head, but did not shoot them! :rofl:

    Do not underestimate the foreign agents and their ways. Our defence purchases indicate how deep and powerful they are! And they need not be merely in the defence procurement field.

    Changing of mindset is a full time activity of foreign powers!

    Note how we bleed, at the nudge of highly placed and acclaimed foreigners, for Binayak Sen, who was distributing Naxal literature and was charged!

    Note the weeping and wailing of the champagne sipping diamond glittering high society chatterati about contrived human rights violations in India without a thought for those who are defending the Nation so that they have the space to wail and weep.

    I could go on, but those in Delhi should have a sitting with Maj Gen (R) Bakshi (the one on TV debates) to get the statistics and the facts to realise how we are a subverted nation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2013
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  16. GPM

    GPM Tihar Jail Banned

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    Re: WIKILEAKS- UPA wanted to gift Siachen to Pakistan. Army opposed.

    You don't know ANY history. No point in rebutting you. Better acquaint yourself of some facts, then argue.
     
  17. parijataka

    parijataka Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: WIKILEAKS- UPA wanted to gift Siachen to Pakistan. Army opposed.

    Kashmir problem is Nehru's lasting legacy to India and well documented.
     
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  18. GPM

    GPM Tihar Jail Banned

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    Re: WIKILEAKS- UPA wanted to gift Siachen to Pakistan. Army opposed.

    He needs some lessons in history before he should speak. Period for @Singh.

    Nehru was bent upon losing Hyderabad too, if Patel had not forced a police action.
     
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  19. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    Re: WIKILEAKS- UPA wanted to gift Siachen to Pakistan. Army opposed.

    I still maintain Nehru didn't gift J&K, because Pakistan had captured those parts before J&K had ceded to the union. If Hari Singh wouldn't have dithered such an impasse would've never occurred.

    If you argue that Nehru's acceptance of ceasefire was a strategic and tactical mistake then I'll be inclined to agree with you. However, seeing the bloodshed of partition, perhaps he was inclined to give peace a chance.

    We have the benefit of hindsight, he didn't. This is an important point.

    ===

    I am not interested in conjecture or systemic issues. But if US's tentacles are as deep in India as you seem to believe, we wouldn't be where we are now. I don't have to give you examples of where we have triumphed over US maneuvering.

    My point, when it came to Kargil war, we were able to convince Clinton. Similarly, those wikileak cables are not Indian official policy but what we wanted US to perceive. If anything they show the lack of a nuanced understanding on the part of the Americans.
     
  20. PredictablyMalicious

    PredictablyMalicious Punjabi Senior Member

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    Re: WIKILEAKS- UPA wanted to gift Siachen to Pakistan. Army opposed.

    Your sequence of events is completely wrong. Hari Singh wasn't dithering on whether to accede or not. He had decided J&K would be independent. However, Pakistan's invasion of northern areas and collaboration with Gilgit ang Baltistani locals made Maharaja Hari Singh accede to India in order to halt the ongoing territorial losses as the Pakistani army was superior to Dogra army. Then, therefore, it was INdia's responsibility to ensure that Pakistan gave up what it won in the initial stages. India did not do that. There was a ceasefire. If anything, Hari Singh didn't owe anything to India.
     
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  21. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    Re: WIKILEAKS- UPA wanted to gift Siachen to Pakistan. Army opposed.

    I would suggest rather than advising me in every thread to read, Why don't you take out the time to apprise me of the facts ?

    And lets tone down on the ad hominems. I am afraid my patience is running out with you.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015

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