Wikileaks: India's HAL hacks own Hawks?

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Sridhar, Sep 10, 2011.

  1. Sridhar

    Sridhar House keeper Moderator

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    Wikileaks: India's HAL hacks own Hawks?

    Two years ago, the Indian Air Force blamed BAE Systems for a one-year delay in the assembly of 42 Hawk advanced jet trainers at Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). BAE released a statement defending itself, but provided no details.

    Thanks to Julian Assange's latest dump of US State Department cables, BAE's side of the story emerges a bit more clearly. In a 24 February 2010 cable marked "confidential", the US Embassy in New Dehli describe Ambassador Timothy Roemer's tour of HAL's factory complex in Bangalaru, and concludes with this anecdote.



    The potential for HAL to successfully partner with U.S. firms on a truly advanced aircraft remains untested and suspect. The Hawk program, which involves the assembly of aircraft from kits supplied by BAE, is well behind schedule. BAE has told Embassy staff that the Indian Air Force did not order sufficient spare parts for the first batch of Hawks that were delivered fully assembled from England. BAE technicians supervising work at HAL became aware that parts were being taken from the kits
    intended to assemble new aircraft and used instead as replacement parts for aircraft already delivered. Lack of controls left BAE unsure what parts were now missing from the kits. When BAE confronted HAL regarding the problem, the BAE technical staff was asked to leave HAL. Clearly, despite the progress evident within the Indian Defense sector, American firms need to approach partnerships carefully to understand the management and technological experience of Indian firms. Cost, schedule and quality will be key challenges for any company engaging in JOINT production ventures.



    Wikileaks: India's HAL hacks own Hawks? - The DEW Line



    So we cannot use the Parts from a Kit , and use for the Older planes from the same supplier . So we should ground them give them new orders in the process the milk us more money.

    This guy was a diplomat or spy. You can find more trusted partner's on either side of our borders . Please spare us.
     
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  3. Poseidon

    Poseidon Regular Member

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    Typical Case of British running to their American Masters.
     
  4. ace009

    ace009 Freakin' Fighter fan Elite Member

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    I am not sure if you know anything about manufacturing or assembly lines - and am pretty sure you know nothing about quality control and process control.
    Here's the deal -

    In manufacturing, especially during assembly of highly technical products, it is NEVER good to break open a kit and use it piecemeal for repairing older products. That defeats the basic purpose of the kit.
    It is shameful for India and HAL in particular that their technicians and engineers were following this HORRIBLE practice and it is even more shameful if India had blamed BAE systems for it.
    Go to any foreign car (probably a luxury car) assembled in India from foreign-made "kits" and you will find that the assembly workers are NEVER NEVER opening a kit randomly and using parts from there to repair older cars. No matter how costly the car or how drastic the damages to it, it is NEVER done.
    I cannot imagine why HAL will allow such things to happen. If older Hawks are to be repaired, specific parts can be ordered and used to replace/ repair the aircraft. Damaging an existing kit is like cutting off an expensive Sandalwood tree to repair your fence.

    For the commentators above, my advice is, before you go into blaming foreigners and declaring that Indians knew best, think rationally.
    The reason foreign engineering is better than ours is simply because they are process oriented, follow rules and are not following "let's fix this anyway" attitude we see in India.
    Also, remember, when you point one finger at someone, four other fingers are pointed at you ...
     
  5. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    This is just another case of myopic procurement policy. They are too busy grafting money from the deal and blaming it on others while they don't buy the parts they need to keep them running. At first I thought blaming Russia for bad supply chains was reality, but am starting to think there is much fault on the India side. They go to FSU for parts because they buy it cheap and pocket the difference. There was probably graft in delay of parts for Scorpenes too.
     
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  6. Sridhar

    Sridhar House keeper Moderator

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    The Supplementary spares deal signed just after (2 months) the first aircraft delivered.

    Now see their vague reply typically any sales men will do

    I admit that i don't have much knowledge in these manufacturing processes.

    My understanding is simple , I own two cars of the same brand even from same order, one car's head lamp fuses and need to be replaced . So can i use the Spare from the other or wait when you say it needs lead time because they came as fully assembled . Even i did order one soon after receiving the order for the first car.Even when i have the licence to assemble the car from raw materials .Even when you expect more orders for the same car.Even when you expect order for other luxury brands in one of the biggest deals.Even when i have assembled your own mid category cars in the past .Even when you have supplied me wrong screw drivers intended for older models , the last being 10 years back.
    So i can use spares from the order of spares intended for the same aircraft or can i use it for other aircraft of different Serial no .
    So can i cannibalize the old car when you stop your production line or should i purchase new car models form you when it is profitable to you

    The car being unused for want of spares defeats the purpose of buying it.I own the two cars , I can change the spares between my cars unless until i don't violate any IPR. If i do you can sue me.Instead don't send me proposals.

    Would be happy to be corrected , No offence meant to any one.
     
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  7. mattster

    mattster Respected Member Senior Member

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    What the Wikileaks cable says is simple - That the whole Hawk Logistics and procurement maintainence process is poorly handled by HAL.

    Not ordering enough spares and cannibalizing existing kits will drive any foreign partner crazy because when new sub-assemblies are built for new aircraft assembly the whole process can be put on hold for lack of a simple spare part...one piece is all it takes. Eventually it becomes the foreign partner who will have to share blame for the delay in production of new aircraft. This is a scenario that no foreign vendor wants to be in as its impacts their schedule and reputation.

    All the cable is saying is that beware of Indian firms and officials overstating their capability.
    As most Indians themselves already know - In India the gap between reality and rhetoric is huge.

    Beware of the ground realities before you jump into all kinds of joint manufacturing assembly agreements.

    BTW: I have been following the Wikileaks posting of Julian Assange about countries that I have an interest or connecton to and I have to say that many of the assessments of these US diplomats that I have read in some of the Wikileaks comments made about Malaysia and other ASEAN countries is SPOT ON the mark based on my own experience living in that area for more than 2 decades.
     
  8. venkat

    venkat Regular Member

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    I heard a different story which points fingers at BAe's integrity as a reliable supplier and its commitment to technology transfer with all jigs and fixtures. Roemer ,what is his background? Is he an EX Boeing or LM? unfortunately HAL does not do proper PR work to expose the misdeeds of technical collaborators!!! One of my friends who works in HAL told me that a certain team visited their factory to redesign an obsolete item. The foreign contractor was trying to find ways to dump the cost of developing a new part on HAL, by trying to find faults which are non existent. may be we have to listen to the HAL story as well,instead of blaming it.
     
  9. The Messiah

    The Messiah Bow Before Me! Elite Member

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    No shit!

    This is not pakistan who will bend over backwards and take your overbearing shit.
     
  10. the unreliability andworthlessness or french side is evident from the scorpene programme.the french are very good in making money by selling your crap products and making money not even bothering about delivery.
     
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  11. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Love it.. blame Indian corruption and lack of foresight on everybody but where it is due. :laugh:
     
  12. ace009

    ace009 Freakin' Fighter fan Elite Member

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    OK - using your own analogy, let's see ...
    You have a 5 yr old BMW 750Li X-Drive ($100,000) and the left headlight stops working. The retalier tells you (since he is the only one in your area who carries the model or the spares for it) that it is going to be $1000 for a replacement headlight. TOO MUCH! That's what you think - it's too much. You tell the retailer that you are not going to buy the replacement.
    You have recently bought another BMW 750Li X-Drive and you decide to take off the left headlight from THAT car to replace the one in the old car. That would make sense to you - right? Next you go to the retailer and tell him that he has given you a faulty car (the new one), since it does not have a left headlight and should repair it for free.
    The retailer says that it's not possible and you must have tinkered with the car, hence all warranty is void.
    You threaten to sue him.
    What do you think happens next?
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2011
  13. agentperry

    agentperry Senior Member Senior Member

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    procurement plans are no treasure hunt that you have to follow the set path and just focus on the next visible thing. its all about future planning and not current jugaad. they should get things clear before and have a designated path to follow in case of procurement and not the typical bureaucratic red-tape-ism.
    moreover they should get real managers in top board also and not jst technical staff promoted to manager post taking financial decision and assessment with no knowledge of economics.

    iski topi uske sar is how indian govt and psu works like.
     
  14. ace009

    ace009 Freakin' Fighter fan Elite Member

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    I like Perry's thought process. Government bureaucrats should be managers first and "administrators" later. IMHO, Indian administrative services (IAS, IFS etc etc) are strangely out of date and out of tune with real world/ India. The whole IAS training scheme seems to be a hangover from the British Raj days, not to mention the state civil services, which are worse. The IAS officer gets trained in riding horses (!?) but not in current management practices.
    GoI to this day has no transparent procurement process, no way of stopping graft and "kickbacks" and no system for fast decisions regarding national security related issues (be it procurement or hiring foreigners for defense projects).
    The pressure on young/ untrained officers with no proper system in place, will result in "Jugaad" for sure.
     
  15. agentperry

    agentperry Senior Member Senior Member

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    i dont know what UPSC wants to check by giving one ias seat after he clears examination thru subjects like animal husbandry and russian literature... shocking but these are subjects which you can take and clear upsc
     
  16. ace009

    ace009 Freakin' Fighter fan Elite Member

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    Shuvo - if you keep your doors wide open and keep your valuables in front, even honest people will be tempted to steal - let alone dishonest people. GoI officials are either not smart enough to close the loopholes, or are corrupt to care - so no wonder foreign companies are taking advantage of us! Why blame the French alone? The Russians, the Israelis, the Americans - anyone who is smart and wants to make some easy money will do the same.
    Point the fingers at your own side before you point it at others ...
    GoI is stupid - we elect them and hence we pay the price.
     
  17. The Messiah

    The Messiah Bow Before Me! Elite Member

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    i know people who failed in school and cleared only after paying money to schools and what not and then pass exam and become ias officers by taking ridiculous papers.
     

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