Why the F-22 is needed - Su-30MK Beats F-15C �Every Time

Discussion in 'International Politics' started by RPK, Aug 8, 2009.

  1. RPK

    RPK Indyakudimahan Senior Member

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    Why the F-22 is needed - Su-30MK Beats F-15C �Every Time

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    Obama, John McCain and a Leftist-controlled Congress all took glee in killing the urgently-needed F-22 Raptor fighter program. This means the US will have to defend any airspace using aging F-15’s F-16’s or F/A-18’s.




    How very dangerous this is was omitted from the discussion.




    Any tactician can get an idea of what will happen in real warfare by the results of military exercises. A set of exercises that pitted the aging F-15 to some of modern Russian jets, not even the top of the line models, mind you, but the slightly dumbed-down export models revealed serious weaknesses in the F-15, versus the new, highly maneuverable Russian Fighters.




    The US went to India, which was equipped with a mixed bag of THREAT aircraft, to include the Sukoi Su-30MK. In mock air combat, our fighters were often destroyed by the Russian aircraft:




    The Russian-built Sukhoi Su-30MK, the high-performance fighter being exported to India and China, consistently beat the F-15C in classified simulations, say U.S. Air Force and aerospace industry officials.




    In certain circumstances, the Su-30 can use its maneuverability, enhanced by thrust-vectoring nozzles, and speed to fool the F-15’s radar, fire two missiles and escape before the U.S. fighter can adequately respond. This is according to Air Force officials who have seen the results of extensive studies of multi-aircraft engagements conducted in a complex of 360-deg. simulation domes at Boeing’s St. Louis facilities.




    “The Su-30 tactic and the success of its escape maneuver permit the second, close-in shot, in case the BVR [beyond-visual-range] shot missed,” an Air Force official said. Air Force analysts believe U.S. electronic warfare techniques are adequate to spoof the missile’s radar. “That [second shot] is what causes concern to the F-15 community,” he said. “Now, the Su-30 pilot is assured two shots plus an effective escape, which greatly increases the total engagement [kill percentage].”




    THE SCENARIO in which the Su-30 “always” beats the F-15 involves the Sukhoi taking a shot with a BVR missile (like the AA-12 Adder) and then “turning into the clutter notch of the F-15’s radar,” the Air Force official said. Getting into the clutter notch where the Doppler radar is ineffective involves making a descending, right-angle turn to drop below the approaching F-15 while reducing the Su-30’s relative forward speed close to zero. This is a 20-year-old air combat tactic, but the Russian fighter’s maneuverability, ability to dump speed quickly and then rapidly regain acceleration allow it to execute the tactic with great effectiveness, observers said.




    If the maneuver is flown correctly, the Su-30 is invisible to the F-15’s Doppler radar—which depends on movement of its targets—until the U.S. fighter gets to within range of the AA-11 Archer infrared missile. The AA-11 has a high-off-boresight capability and is used in combination with a helmet-mounted sight and a modern high-speed processor that rapidly spits out the target solution.

    Positioned below the F-15, the Su-30 then uses its passive infrared sensor to frame the U.S. fighter against the sky with no background clutter. The Russian fighter then takes its second shot, this time with the IR missile, and accelerates out of danger.




    “It works in the simulator every time,” the Air Force official said. However, he did point out that U.S. pilots are flying both aircraft in the tests. Few countries maintain a pilot corps with the air-to-air combat skills needed to fly these scenarios, said an aerospace industry official involved in stealth fighter programs.




    Those skeptical of the experiments say they’re being used to justify the new Aim-9X high-off-boresight, short-range missile and its helmet-mounted cuing system, the F-22 as an air superiority fighter and, possibly, the development of a new long-range air-to-air missile that could match the F-22 radar’s ability to find targets at around 120 mi. They contend that the Su-30MK can only get its BVR missile shot off first against a large radar target like the F-15. While it’s true that the Su-30 MK would not succeed against the stealthy F-22 or F-35, neither would it regularly beat the nonstealthy (but relatively small radar cross section) F-16 or F/A-18E/F, they said. These analysts don’t deny the F-22’s value as an air-to-air fighter, but say the aircraft’s actual operational value will be greatest in the penetrating strike, air defense suppression and electronic jamming roles.




    At the same time, there may be more to the simulations than justifying new weaponry, say European analysts. Also at play are some tactical wrinkles being developed for the more effective use of new Russian missile versions.




    The simulations were reflected in mock air combat with India in Exercise Cope India 04




    What we�ve seen in the last two weeks is, the IAF can stand toe-to-toe with best AF in the world.




    And what gave the Indian Air Force the competitive edge needed to best American pilots, driving the F-15C? The Sukhoi Su-30 of course.









    The aircraft is a modernized version of the Su-27UB and has several variants. The Su-30K and Su-30MK series have had commercial success. The variants are manufactured by competing organizations: KnAAPO and the IRKUT Corporation, both of which come under the Sukhoi group’s umbrella. KnAAPO manufactures the Su-30MKK and the Su-30MK2, which were designed for and sold to China and later Indonesia. Irkut makes the long-range, multirole Su-30MK series. The series includes the Su-30MKI developed for the Indian Air Force and its derivatives, the MKM, MKA and MKV for Malaysia, Algeria and Venezuela respectively.




    ...




    Pugachev’s Cobra maneuver




    The integrated aerodynamic configuration, combined with the thrust vectoring control ability
     
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  3. SATISH

    SATISH DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    I never thought the Americans will give out the secrets of their aircrafts so easily.
     
  4. threadbrowser

    threadbrowser Regular Member

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    Its all budget games, factions in senate and congress want the program to continue, the USAF is fully infected with next war itis and still dreams of 300 plus f-22s.
    I for one agree with Sec Gates, first call for funds should be for the current two conflicts not for a hypothetical future one.
     
  5. Tamil

    Tamil Regular Member

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    F-22 maintains is very costly for 1 flight hour they maintains 30 hours of service...
     
  6. Shiny Capstar

    Shiny Capstar Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Seriously? Has the reader never looked into Cope India 04? The way the writer used it destroys their credability.
     
  7. Ratus Ratus

    Ratus Ratus Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Concur on that.
    Goes back to my feelings about excitable people on forums, do a bit of background reading before getting all excited on a bit of media.
     
  8. pyromaniac

    pyromaniac Founding Member

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    They are going to use F-35's as the mainstay of the USAF with the F-22 performing the role of a Air superiority fighter albeit in much smaller numbers than was originally envisioned. American fight doctrine dictates that combat aircraft fly with their radars off and under the cover of AWACS and engage enemies at extreme range...going by that, the current USAF fleet more than matches any other Air force in the world.
     
  9. EnlightenedMonk

    EnlightenedMonk Member of The Month JULY 2009 Senior Member

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    Oh, how desperate one can get for money for fighter jet programmes !!!
     
  10. John

    John Guest

    well su-30mki can kill the old f-15s but i doubt the new ones are easy to kill. The new F-15 S/SE has new active radars, ew suites and the new version will have weapons bays, rcs will be reduced and hence the f-15 will remain a very strong aircraft, besides the
    F-15 still has a higher top speed than the su-30mk, the F-15 can easily out run most missiles in tail-chase mode. The outcome of a furball will depend on training and skill.
     
  11. Flint

    Flint Senior Member Senior Member

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    Seems sensationalist to me.
     
  12. Ratus Ratus

    Ratus Ratus Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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  13. Daredevil

    Daredevil On Vacation! Administrator

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    I think this is all media hype. IAF and USAF never made any official statements to this effect. So, these things should not be taken seriously.
     
  14. SATISH

    SATISH DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    The Americans were a bit taken aback by the training and resourcefulness of Indian pilots that is all. They never expected the Russian aircrafts to be flown at it's full capability nor did they think Indians could maintain them and upgrade them so well. Remember we had been practicing with the Israeli, French and British air forces before Cope India happened. The Americans went on to hype it to demand more money from the Congress but nothing happened. The count of F 22 still remains at 200. This is one more PR rant to gather support from Congress that is all. Take it with a pinch of salt.
     
  15. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    by the time F-15S/SE is in service the Russia/ India will Su-30 S/SF Stealth Flanker will be around. :2guns::2guns:
     

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