Why is Indonesia different from other Islamic nations?

Ray

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Why is Indonesia different from other Islamic nations?

Indonesia is uniquely different.

It is because of the unique syncretic mix of culture, they being Santri, Abagan and Priyayi.

Santri is the practice of orthodox Islam, who are basically urban and who go to the Mosque, read the Quar'an and follow Sharia.

The Abagan tend to be rural people who have absorbed both the Hindu and Muslim ways and are sort of animist, if you will, and who follow folk tradition, to include beliefs that centres on spirits, magic, and the ceremonial feast or salametan .

The Priyayi are those who follow Hindu Javanese traditions.

Indonesia's political history would give an idea of how Indonesia functions and why it is different.

The Santri played a the key role in Indonesian Nationalist movements, and formed the strongest opposition to President Suharto's New Order army-based administration.

In contrast, the Abangan have tended to follow the prevailing political wind; they supported Sukarno's overt nationalism, while during Suharto's subsequent presidency, they loyally voted for his Golkar party. Poorer Abangan areas became strongholds of the Indonesian Communist Party (PKI) in stark opposition to the orthodox Muslim Santri. The cultural divisions descended into bloody conflict in 1965/66 when Santri were opposed to communists, many of whom were from Abangan streams.

For further details, see

Elections and Politics in Indonesia
Elections and Politics in Indonesia - Leo Suryadinata - Google Books

SANTRI - ABANGAN DICHOTOMY IN TODAY INDONESIA: RECONSIDERED
ISLAMIC PHILANTHROPY: SANTRI - ABANGAN DICHOTOMY IN TODAY INDONESIA: RECONSIDERED
 

Free Karma

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That is one of the cool things about Indonesia, they might be Muslim majority but they acknowledge their past culture and traditions. Our problem is over compensating, and complete shunning anything and everything in the name of secularism.

Pakistanis on the other hand are trying hard to become second class arabs by wiping out their past, I've heard that some families even rewrote their clan histories to make it look like they were descended from arab tribes rather than local ones.

Another cool piece of art from Suvarnabhoomi airport in Thailand, based on the churning of the ocean, I'm sure there might be many sickulars who would shout about it, if something like this was done in India, there were people who were angry about the ISRO chief visiting a temple before the launch of mangalyaan!


I think many people in India are now beginning to realize the difference between being secular, and embracing your own civilizational basis.
 

Virendra

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When I see half of the Islamic countries (including Iraq lately) in one turmoil or the other, it doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.
Anyway, good for them and everyone else, if Indonesia can become an example to follow.
 

Peter

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The real question is why they HATE THEIR PAST ..........
Thanks to British 1947 Brits done a good job simply draw a lines Punjab&Bengal AND 48 India in Kashmir(loc) where 70% punjabi/bengali/kashmiris are muslims if the LINES are NOT DRAWN they simply ATTACK and convert rest of 30% hindus and they embrace their identity as we are punjabi/bengali/kashmiri

else the 70% who r converted islam afraid of truth that THEY are LOW CASTE hindus or RA** products

Ex if we ask any Baloch they are proud they r Baloch/Pakthun........ is the pak/BD say we proud we r punjabi/bengali/kashmiri/sindhi THE ANSWER a BIG NO :lol:
@pmaitra @mods

What is the meaning of this? Is this within forum rules. I admit that I made a small mistake but what is this??
 
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Ray

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That is one of the cool things about Indonesia, they might be Muslim majority but they acknowledge their past culture and traditions. Our problem is over compensating, and complete shunning anything and everything in the name of secularism.
Interestingly Malaysia does not.

In fact, they have made it a point to wipe out totally their Hindu past.

One should hear their commentary on the history of Malaysia that they give in the viewing platform at Petrona Towers and at their museums.
 

Ray

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When I see half of the Islamic countries (including Iraq lately) in one turmoil or the other, it doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.
Anyway, good for them and everyone else, if Indonesia can become an example to follow.
Iraq is like any Islamic country.

The social and the governance model is shaped by the norms of the religion.

The religion is very clear where the rules are inflexible and 'detours' are practically unacceptable.

In the rigid matrix of the religion, only a rigid iron hand (if you will) can succeed.

Take any Islamic country and it will be noticed that whenever democracy has been tried it has failed. Even Pakistan is seesaw in democracy and military dictatorship. Its current democracy is in turmoil with the fundamentalist holding the nation at ransom. It has only under a iron fist of the military have they ever been stable.

Egypt is back to a military leadership in the guise of democracy.

Syria is in turmoil. It was calm till Assad was supreme. Now in chaos since interests to bring Freedom and Democracy have taken over, if you know what I mean.

Turkey is hardly a democracy. Kemal Attaturk brought Turkey some semblance with an iron hand and now it is back to Islam under another 'iron hand'. And they like it!

Therefore, it is better to let them live the way they want and not superimpose what others feel is 'right'. All this Freedom and Democracy in the western sense does not make sense to them. So, leave them alone.

The happenings in Iraq and Syria only indicates that we are making it fair grounds for the fundamentalists to run a riot.

Watch this space for what happen in Afghanistan and the experiment in democracy.
 
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Ray

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The real question is why they HATE THEIR PAST ..........
Thanks to British 1947 Brits done a good job by simply draw a line in Punjab&Bengal AND 48 India in Kashmir(loc) where 70% punjabi/bengali/kashmiris are muslims if the LINES are NOT DRAWN they simply ATTACK and convert rest of 30% hindus and they embrace their identity as we are punjabi/bengali/kashmiri

else the 70% who r converted islam afraid of truth that THEY are LOW CASTE hindus or RA** products

Ex if we ask any Baloch/Pakthun they are proud they are Baloch/Pakthun........ is these pak/BD say we proud we r punjabi/bengali/kashmiri/sindhi THE ANSWER a BIG NO :lol:
Please understand I am a tolerant person.

Patience and Freedom of Speech has its limits.

Your contentions are not logical and nor historical truths.

I think you are crossing the Rubicon.

Watch it!
 

Ray

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Posters,

Please keep to the Topic.

One does not have to dole out irrelevant and low quality fights to show that one exists.

Display knowledge of the topic instead.

Or just take it easy and learn something that obviously you don't know since if one knew, they would not indulge in low quality irrelevance and feel that they are intelligent posts.
 

ITBP

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Not only Indonesia, Malaysia too is good compared to other Muslims country. They are very tolerant. Perhaps because they have different genetics than Arabs I think.
 

thakur_ritesh

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I have a hunch it's got to do with the tourism Bali attracts. Of all the places, Bali in Indonesia attracts the most tourism, and the island is inhabited by the Hindus there, and majority of the Hindus in Indonesia are found on here with the count of around 85-90% of total Hindu population in Indonesia and so they are not messed around with, but that is not to say terrorism has not visited this island, this place has been repeatedly targeted by way of bombings, people would recall the famous Bali bombings specifically targeting the Hindu community there.

Realising well the extent this revenue model would be hurt, these people tightened up the security, and no messing around is allowed. More recently there is this program called "what really happens in Bali" went on air in Australia, and since Bali happens to attract maximum tourism from Australia, there was this huge PR campaign started to overcome the adverse impact this program could possibly have on the flow of Australian tourist, which shows how sensitive the government is to the earnings they make of tourism inflow to Bali.
 

Ray

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can u please highlight where u find my contentions are so called not logical and nor historical truths.


yes truth hurts doesn't mean u can stop its 21st century :rofl:
Truth as per you contention lies here

Thanks to British 1947 Brits done a good job simply draw a lines Punjab&Bengal AND 48 India in Kashmir(loc) where 70% punjabi/bengali/kashmiris are muslims if the LINES are NOT DRAWN they simply ATTACK and convert rest of 30% hindus and they embrace their identity as we are punjabi/bengali/kashmiri

else the 70% who r converted islam afraid of truth that THEY are LOW CASTE hindus or RA** products
The British did not draw the lines to ensure others are not converted.

If you want to know more about the undercurrent of Partition or even Kashmir, read Jaswant Singh's book - India at Risk.

Further you can convert a small minority with high-handedness. Not when there is a sizeable minority in a country.

By your logic, India would be a Hindu country.
 
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Ray

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Not only Indonesia, Malaysia too is good compared to other Muslims country. They are very tolerant. Perhaps because they have different genetics than Arabs I think.
Malaysia is said to be tolerant, but that is only half of the reality.

They are tolerant because the economy is controlled by the Chinese.

Otherwise,all laws favour the Muslims.

Check the Bhoomiputra Act.
 

Ray

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I have a hunch it's got to do with the tourism Bali attracts. Of all the places, Bali in Indonesia attracts the most tourism, and the island is inhabited by the Hindus there, and majority of the Hindus in Indonesia are found on here with the count of around 85-90% of total Hindu population in Indonesia and so they are not messed around with, but that is not to say terrorism has not visited this island, this place has been repeatedly targeted by way of bombings, people would recall the famous Bali bombings specifically targeting the Hindu community there.

Realising well the extent this revenue model would be hurt, these people tightened up the security, and no messing around is allowed. More recently there is this program called "what really happens in Bali" went on air in Australia, and since Bali happens to attract maximum tourism from Australia, there was this huge PR campaign started to overcome the adverse impact this program could possibly have on the flow of Australian tourist, which shows how sensitive the government is to the earnings they make of tourism inflow to Bali.
That maybe to some extent true.

However, the Hindu influence and the Animist influence has not left Indonesia. The Abangan stream of Indonesia is very strong.

Suharto before taking office went through such Abangan ceremonies (blasphemous to strict Islam) before taking office. He was of the Abangan stream.
 

Free Karma

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Interestingly Malaysia does not.

In fact, they have made it a point to wipe out totally their Hindu past.

One should hear their commentary on the history of Malaysia that they give in the viewing platform at Petrona Towers and at their museums.
The other difference here is that Indonesia's Hindu population is more or less made up of natives (though confined to largely one island), while Malaysia's Hindus,today, are mainly of Indian origin,with a few Locals mixed in.
Malaysia seems to going the Pakistan way, heavy dislike of even Shia and ahmaddiya muslims. Although you can see there is some resistance, they've slowly become more and more conservative, with them trying to bulldoze Hindu temples and then making people carry identity cards based on religion.

I think it will be interesting to see how Islam spread in both the countries.
 

Ray

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U mean Jaswanth words are Gospel truth ..........
No.

No one's word can be the Gospel for any thinking person.

It just opens up the vista to perceptions and analysis.

Any intelligent man knows that much.

One reads history. Some believe it,

Is that the Gospel?
 
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Ray

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The other difference here is that Indonesia's Hindu population is more or less made up of natives (though confined to largely one island), while Malaysia's Hindus,today, are mainly of Indian origin,with a few Locals mixed in.
Malaysia seems to going the Pakistan way, heavy dislike of even Shia and ahmaddiya muslims. Although you can see there is some resistance, they've slowly become more and more conservative, with them trying to bulldoze Hindu temples and then making people carry identity cards based on religion.

I think it will be interesting to see how Islam spread in both the countries.
Malaysia has tried very hard to be Muslim, But they have failed because the Chinese actually rule them - money and the Malaysians are too laid back and do not have their (Chinese) 'alacrity'.

Hindus can be trampled over. They do not have any significant presence in the bureaucracy or the economy.

And a large majority are but blue collared.
 

Ray

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It just opens up the vista to perceptions and analysis............. u need to know some kind of ideas what is Islamic ideology, expansion, forced conversion, invaders barbarism etc etc but our Sickular text books don't provide any so we learn half truth and make perception

p.s there is no Half truth .......it is simply LIE :p
It is those who live in the past and cannot live in the present and cannot look into the future are the albatrosses around the neck.

As far as India is concerned that is history. of the past and was not in vogue when the British came.

It continues to be so because of the anti conversion act.

It is only those who wish to convert out of free will, can and the DM is to certify it so.

But then, have you read Jaswant Singh;s book to comment so authoritatively?

or is it your depravity to face reality that speaks?
 

Ray

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For that u need to be alive :pound:............. how many BOMB BLASTS they done how many they r planning WHY ONLY after 9/11 ISLAMIC TERRORISM words used

i feel pity some feels so intelligent but they r victims (brainwashed) by sickular text books

why only always RIOTS STARTED BY ONLY one community (99% around the world)
And you great nationalist, can you explain why you remained impotent when they did so?

What you done to show your masculinity, apart from whining?

If you are impotent, then quit whining.
 

Ray

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Don't whine ..... do u know how many people DISAPPEAR form their houses and never return

do u know how many fake encounters our police do

do u know how many languish in jails without any cases

check which MUSCULINE community cry and NO ONE CARES :lol:
What I know, you would require a lifetime to know. That is what I surmise going through your posts which are mere bilious bombast without substance and backup with facts.
 
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