Why is Holocaust Important?

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by Martian, Dec 28, 2009.

  1. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    The Holocaust is more than just about the death of Jews. In many ways, the Holocaust is about the Germans. From a Westerner's view, they are "one of us." How could they have committed these unspeakable acts? What does that say about Western civilization? Is our future filled with more Holocausts? Are we all doomed?

    The Holocaust was relatively recent. There are still survivors. The horrors of incarcerating Jews/people (i.e. Allied prisoners of war) in concentration camps and tattooing innocent inmates, including women and children, with numbers spoke to the inhumanity of the Germans. The Germans went further still. They built ovens to burn living human beings and gassed people to death in "homicidal gas chambers disguised as showers." These were not isolated incidents. The insane and deranged Germans systematically killed millions of people, not just Jews.

    "Some scholars maintain that the definition of the Holocaust should also include the Nazis' systematic murder of millions of people in other groups, including ethnic Poles, the Romani, Soviet civilians, Soviet prisoners of war, people with disabilities, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other political and religious opponents.[4] By this definition, the total number of Holocaust victims would be between 11 million and 17 million people.[5]" see The Holocaust - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The Holocaust has been widely publicized (i.e. Schindler's List) by powerful Jews. But the story extends far beyond mere publicity. How could the Germans (who were modern, industrialized, living in the largest country in Europe, having the world's second largest economy, having the most Nobel Prize winners prior to 1933, and a shining example of Western enlightenment and progress) turn into demonic nightmares that committed such unimaginable and unspeakable acts. German behavior and atrocities during World War II forced all Western societies to take a hard look in the mirror and ask the question: "could it happen to us?"

    As a result of this introspection and reflection, Western powers and societies became more humane. Colonization/enslavement of non-white countries was gradually reversed and terminated. The Civil Rights Act of 1960 and 1964 were passed in the United States to make society more fair for non-white American citizens.

    The effects of the Holocaust were far-reaching and the reversal of global European colonization and social reform in the United States were equally profound. The Holocaust raised important questions of what it means to be human and how do we, as Homo sapiens, ensure that these atrocities are never repeated against our fellow human beings. The broader questions and responses engendered by the Holocaust will ensure its importance in history for a long time to come.
     
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  3. S.A.T.A

    S.A.T.A Senior Member Senior Member

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    What forced western societies into this so called introspection is not that a supposedly enlightened and cultured and a nouveau imperial society could be capable of such acts of barbarism to a,but that such atrocities where perpetrated against a community,that until then had been considered ,even with slight reservations,a fellow member of the larger nationalist imperial society.

    While the holocaust was accomplished with a cold panache that is yet to be replicated since,the fact is European imperialism of Asia and Africa over the decades before Nazis has accounted for greater casualty than any holocaust could cruelty scale.
     
  4. jakojako777

    jakojako777 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Hi my friend!

    To correct Wikipedia first


    original from Wikipedia

    killing of......Poles, the deaths of Soviet prisoners of war, Slavs,

    (In your text there was no"Slavs")
    "Poles" are SLAVS "Soviet prisoners" were SLAVS in great majority
    Person who wrote article in Wikipedia by putting "Slavs" in 3rd place after those who belong to that group wrote something ignorant if not illiterate.

    SLAVS were killed be cause considered LOWER RACE in general(of course NOT when they were NAZI like Muslim SS (Bosnia) or SS from Ukraine, Croat NAZI and all other collaborators etc)
    Those were more exception to the rule!
    So it is not about Poles (who BY FAR didn't have as many victims as Russians anyway (Russia 20million I think)) but about SLAVS in general !

    I honestly do not know where "Jehovah's Witnesses" are coming from??!?

    I never heard about them being mentioned by NAZI's !?!

    Do you have any serious link be cause that looks like PURE disinformation?

    The link available in article was leading to the WIKIPEDIA article about them ! not to serious article that shows hysteric document...
    Looks more like publicity about "Jehovah's Witnesses" wrote buy member



    This was not against your thread but against author of article in Wikipedia

    .
     
  5. jakojako777

    jakojako777 Senior Member Senior Member

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    The Holocaust is more than just about the death of Jews.


    Agree

    In many ways, the Holocaust is about the Germans.

    Yes but size of the crime make it universal and puts in question human nature in general.



    From a Westerner's view, they are "one of us." How could they have committed these unspeakable acts? What does that say about Western civilization?


    Question is if they are like us how could those horrible crimes been committed?
    Please DON'T use it as attack Western civilization.
    The fact is that Western civilization had much more means to commit those crimes than others, nothing else.....

    The insane and deranged Germans systematically killed millions of people, not just Jews.

    Here you try to answer WHY they did it
    The problem is you make it sound like it was some isolated committed group of lunatics and others had nothing to do with it or not much be cause not "insane and deranged"

    But others had something to do with that also,...... including for example those who never killed anybody but could smell snitch every day of burned bodies coming from nearby concentration camp

    It is very complex and complicated question so ther is no easy answer

    How could the Germans (who were modern, industrialized, living in the largest country in Europe, having the world's second largest economy, having the most Nobel Prize winners prior to 1933, and a shining example of Western enlightenment and progress

    Again attempt to answer the question "WHY" this time by asking another question.....
    Being modern, industrialized,.... having the most Nobel Prize winners etc. are not really good questions in my opinion
    Being "modern, industrialized" helps human being to kill even more actually.
    But I guess that you wanted to use word CIVILIZED to cover all the aspects..

    So were Germans CIVILIZED (what does CIVILIZED means really?)and if they were CIVILIZED what have pushed them to follow (lunatic?) Hitler?
    Promises of better tomorrow, deceit, hunger for power, all ?
    What was that Hitlers power, how did he touched imaginary of whole nation and made them dream about great "Reich" ?

    German behavior and atrocities during World War II forced all Western societies to take a hard look in the mirror and ask the question: "could it happen to us?"

    "Take a hard look in the mirror and ask the question" I don't know about that I doubt that they did that in majority of cases.
    It was so easy to accuse Germany and sleep like baby without asking any questions.

    "could it happen to us?"
    Of course it could (you are from U.S. think about extermination of many Indian tribes)
    With modernization("civilization") the crimes just grow bigger.
    1st World War was terrible butchery 2nd WW was just more vicious and sadistic than 1st WW...


    As a result of this introspection and reflection, Western powers and societies became more humane. Colonization/enslavement of non-white countries was gradually reversed and terminated.

    For the 1st time I don't agree with you colonization has dwindled & vanished simply be cause colonial powers UK & France, Holland, Belgium etc were just SHADOW of the power they had before 2 World Wars.
    They just couldn't stop nations from braking away from colonial domination
    Enslavement was broken be cause of emancipation of blacks through their participation in (just like women) 2nd WW
    I don't deny that war itself didn't have eye opening effect on the people who participated
    It was shock( like all wars) so it is logical that it had all kinds of impacts (positive also)

    The Holocaust raised important questions of what it means to be human and how do we, as Homo sapiens, ensure that these atrocities are never repeated against our fellow human beings.


    Well spoken and I cant agree more with comment
    But than "what it means to be human"
    And also we all know that it all stayed on WORDS to" ensure that these atrocities are never repeated against our fellow human beings"

    Don't want to be provocative but do you remember "napalm bombs"
    U.S. were throwing them on villages and burning the people(often only peasants CHILDREN also!) only 20-30 years after Holocaust
    Not to mention that Vietnam war was started with false flag operation in gulf of Tomkin (with story of the ship that was NEVER attacked)
    So what are the lessons?
    And who had them ?
    Germans?
    I doubt!
    Would they be capable to do it again?
    (Perhaps not in exact same way) but still YES they would be capable to do it again!

    how do we, as Homo sapiens, ensure that these atrocities are never repeated against our fellow human beings.


    We don't "ensure it" and we never will !

    It is not Germans, Hispanic,Black or White it is not Hitler or madness or some other excuse we are all susceptible doesn't matter color of skin,level of civilization or anything else
    We can all be affected by evil of hate and destruction it is just question of choice we make in our heart
    That is what I think
    But let us not close eyes on reality evil is here to stay among us and in my opinion next world war will be even more horrible than previous two

    Holocaust?

    With atomic weapons today is possible to make instant Holocausts of nations in few seconds , even to make Holocaust of whole planet!
    So we are deeper in Holocaust than ever
    and lesson of WW2 was NEVER LEARNED ! !
     
  6. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    I believe you are correct. The introspection was not caused by whether "a supposedly enlightened and cultured and a nouveau imperial society" like Germany "could be capable of such acts of barbarism." What every Westerner was actually thinking was: "have the Germans lost their minds? Enslavement and shooting guns are not supposed to be directed at 'a fellow member of the larger nationalist imperial society.'"

    The second issue that you raised, about the larger Holocaust in Asia and Africa from European imperialism, is a good topic for an article. In the future, after performing diligent research, I might write an article about it from my perspective. It might be interesting to prove the thesis that India's technological and economic advancement was retarded by British occupation and suppression for two hundred years. If you ever write an article on the topic, I would be very curious as to what you have to say.
     
  7. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    You raised many important questions and issues. It will take a long time for me to think through the issues. Just the following questions alone will be a difficult challenge to answer.

    "So were Germans CIVILIZED (what does CIVILIZED means really?)and if they were CIVILIZED what have pushed them to follow (lunatic?) Hitler?
    Promises of better tomorrow, deceit, hunger for power, all ?
    What was that Hitlers power, how did he touched imaginary of whole nation and made them dream about great "Reich" ?"

    Eventually, I'll write a new article and try to answer the important questions that you asked regarding civilian German complicity in Nazi war crimes. I think I'll have to look more deeply into German history and try to understand the German psyche. This won't be easy.
     
  8. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    "agree(as usual)with you BUT it is you who started it and it is VERY important question in life also!"

    You misunderstand. I thank you for your insightful questions. I thought I had written an interesting article focusing on the non-Jewish impact of the Holocaust.

    Allowing me to sidestep the complex issue of German motivation, it seemed like a good idea to write about the broader effects of the Holocaust on Western civilization. Reading the comments, I may have to address some knotty questions.

    Don't worry about me. My skin is really thick. I just ignore comments that I think are unjustified or unfair. I appreciate all of your comments; whether "good" or "bad." It is not possible for two people to agree on everything. However, strangely, you and I do seem to agree on a lot of things.

    To make things more complicated, my views are fluid. Usually, I read or think of a new idea or perspective that generates a kernel of doubt. Over time, facts and evidence (i.e. reasonable conclusions) accumulate to accentuate that doubt. The final stage is acceptance. Provided with sufficient "proof," I will change my mind.
     

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