Why is China allied with Pakistan?

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by t_co, Dec 20, 2012.

  1. nimo_cn

    nimo_cn Senior Member Senior Member

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    Dealing with a superpower like US, China is always put in a disadvantageous positon. American defaulting the debt is very likely to have a devestating impact on Chinese economy, no arguement on that. But people should keep in mind that US is also going to pay a huge price for doing that, something like the crown of being the most powerful country on the planet. And why would the Americans do that?

    I have always pointed out that China has intention to replace America as the lead of the world, and China is demonstrating that by supporting American economy through purchasing American debts.

    As long as China keeps acting dscreet and posing no overwhelming threat to Americans, they are not going to take adventurous move against China. Instead, they are going to contain China in a slow and gradual way by allying countries like Japan, India.

    As of now, Americans gain more and lose less in the growth of China, so we are safe.
     
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  2. nimo_cn

    nimo_cn Senior Member Senior Member

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    India has the neither the ability or authority to explore in South China Sea. Vietnam only introduces India into South China Sea to confront China, but not to drill oil for them, instead they are banking on French to do that.

    Vietnam claims the whole South China, no one seems to be bothered, so yes, China can and is claiming what belongs to us in South China Sea.

    Border disputes in Asia is quite common, India is having land disputs with almost every of its neighbors, too. Vietnam is no exceptional as well, land and water disputes with China, water dispute with Philippine, land dispute with Cambodia, etc. Thailand and Cambodia, Thailand and Malaysia, Malaysia and Singapore, NK and SK, SK and Japan, Japan and Russia, you name it, who doesn't have dispute with whom.
     
  3. ersakthivel

    ersakthivel Senior Member Senior Member

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    Just count your losses in true value , because a decade back gold was going for a sixth of it's current price in dollars.
    That's why it seems incredible when people say china and US are rivals. Through out the world history which rival held the other's currency and which rival had their enemy as NO-1 trading partner?
    China's so called moves of countering US with new weapons is in reality a covert attempt to dominate others in ASIA.As risking a confrontation with US will spell trouble for it's own economy.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2012
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  4. EXPERT

    EXPERT Regular Member

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    @nimo_cn : Who told that india having border disputes with any country exept bloody Pak and You Chinese . . .
    We see our neighbour as friend and equal to us,neither like China who dominate others.
     
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  5. hello_10

    hello_10 Tihar Jail Banned

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    sir I tell you something about export business of China to US and EU. even if US+EU ban import from China, it would be a loss of around $700bil "manufactured products" business for China, out of total $2.1trillions China's export, while half of it, around $350billions can be consumed by increased demand from Asia, Africa South America etc, along with increase in home consumption. as, if CHina export to EU+EU then they import also and if the same CHina Import from Japan+Korea+ASEAN+SOuht America, CHina will get at least $300billion additional export order in return..... hence a total loss of around $350billions export of Manufactured products, out of $2.1trillions, if both US+EU impose ban on CHina suddenly..... :wave:

    from here, the very first question US+EU have, do they still have those industries to supply those products, they import from China? I mean to ask, even to wear cloths, shoes, cheap cars etc. specially fridges, TVs, Micro Wave type stuffs which we generally buy and throw in Australia in case of any problem as it is cheap to buy a new one than maintenance cost etc. do the West still have these industries? and even if they start from now, it would take at least 5-6 years to have little bit industrial infrastructure like this, they have lost in 80s and 90s :wave:

    and the second and the most important question, are their civilians prepared to have high inflation for the next 10-12, if these industries back to US+EU?? they already have around 106% debt to total US's GDP to date, with borrowing around $1.2trillions every year to meet expenditure commitments, as of last 2 years. then here, high inflation, say at 7%, will also make then have interests rate close to 7% on their debt. how will they finance it under their current expenditure, which requires around 44% to be spent on Social Security+Medical only????? check it as below....

    U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time

    US+EU have traveled so long that its really hard for them to return until they have to, say after an economic fall like how Russia faced in 90s. while now they are going to lose business of High Tech products to China, then how will they maintain their CAD under so high price based competition from China on side of High Tech products also.......:toilet:
    lets see what exactly we will see in our time :ranger:
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2012
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  6. hello_10

    hello_10 Tihar Jail Banned

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    Border Disputes of India Vs China:

    there is difference between border disputes, India and the China have with its neighbors, I explain it as below:

    1st. China has border disputes with that Taiwan whose governments have been a puppet to US against China under over 66% majority governments. Taiwan, whose every strength was used against China during 80s, 90s and last decade under over 66% voting of the governments they elected but now they look like have surrendered to China :tsk:

    and again, China has border disputes with India on Arunanchal Pradesh whose every system wants to fight against CHina in case of any war. Arunanchal Pradesh is that part of India who wants to fight against China's claim over it, many voting were also done in this regard, and mainly Mr D.Lama lead those people who consider him like a Lord.....

    a straight and bottomline difference between border disputes, India and China have with its neighbors :wave:

    2nd, India has border dispute with that Pakistan on Kashmir issue whose every state wants separation from Pakistan. Indian Kashmir has an "Elected State Democratic Government", while POK is now the most peaceful part of Pakistan. rest, neither Muhajir's want Karachi to go on the control of rest of Pakistanis, neither Balochistanis itself have their mid-set with the mainstream of Pakistan and want independence, and not even the North West state of Pashtun's Pakistan ever wanted Punjabi dominance over them and want to go with their Pashtun brothers of Afghanistan........ and with that, neither Indian Muslims also find Muhajirs of Pakistan in any good condition, which always give a lesson to Kashmiris too to always be ready to fight with infiltration from Pakistan to maintain their independence :thumb:
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2012
  7. hello_10

    hello_10 Tihar Jail Banned

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    An Indian Stand on the Border Dispute with Pakistan on the Kashmir issue is as below, in the light of historical facts and agreements signed at the time of freedom of both the countries.......:thumb:

    this article below represents Indian claim on POK but I find partition of Kashmir was done in the same as rest of other border states of India-Pakistan. for example, "East Bengal" went to Pakistan and "West Bengal" to India, "East Punjab" to India and "West Punjab" to Pakistan, 'Sindh' to Pakistan and 'Gujarat' to India and hence, POK to Pakistan and Indian Kashmir, the crown of India :india: :truestory:

    while on my own side, when I was to open my mouth on this issue and I found people of POK more willing to come to join India, once I proposed $60billion offer to Pakistan in return of POK, which will make them free of whole external debt, and it may then be saved by Indian side too on long run by saving on the military expanses on the border of Pakistan over LOC, they spend right now to avoid infiltration. my personal level proposal :ranger:

     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2012
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  8. t_co

    t_co Senior Member Senior Member

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    List of disputed territories of India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    1.1 People's Republic of China
    1.1.1 Aksai Chin
    1.1.2 Disputed areas located between Aksai Chin and Nepal
    1.1.3 Trans-Karakoram Tract
    1.1.4 Arunachal Pradesh
    1.1.5 Depsang Plains
    1.2 Pakistan
    1.2.1 Siachen Glacier
    1.2.2 Saltoro Mountains
    1.2.3 Sir Creek
    1.3 Bangladesh
    1.3.1 Boraibari
    1.3.2 Indo-Bangladesh enclaves
    1.3.3 New Moore / South Talpatti
    1.4 Nepal
    1.4.1 Kalapani
    1.4.2 Susta
    1.5 Myanmar
    1.5.1 Narcondam Island
    1.6 Sri Lanka
    1.6.1 Kachchatheevu

    It seems you are wrong, good sir.
     
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  9. Rage

    Rage DFI TEAM Stars and Ambassadors

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    No prob.


    In the medium-term India is a strategic regional threat to China from the perspective of vital IOR shipping lanes which still account for well over 70% of China's crude. From a conventional military standpoint you are right in saying that China's dominance over the Tibetan plateau affords it 'strategic depth' which India cannot exploit. But any military standoff between India and China will involve a naval confrontation, since that is India's only real stranglehold over China: something China realizes as it is looks to diversify its crude supplies. China also realizes however, that the IOR shipping lanes will continue to be important from the perspective of trade in both crude and commodities given the rising importance of Africa as both a market and resource supplier; which is why it is looking to establish a naval footprint in the IOR. In the medium-long term, India becomes a threat to China from two viewpoints: 1) from the perspective of both a massive resource-consumer and resource-competitor (which needless to say are scarce, costly and often essential): everywhere from Africa to Afghanistan to the Middle East and the South-China Sea; and 2) as a polar influence in competitive engagement: both from a larger geo-political perspective, as it looks to deepen its own political and military ties and engagement with many of the states China is currently courting, in order to establish security of access for both resources and markets and to limit the forex impingement from scarcity; and from a more regional militaristic perspective as it seeks its own 'strategic depth' from pliant allies. Many of these, often exclusive, politico-military maneuvers: such as joint military training, arms and advanced technology transfers, comprehensive military exercises, establishment of military interoperability, construction of dual use ports etc. will be seen as aggressive posturing by either country, regardless of the rhetoric.

    Concomitantly, India is wary of China because it currently blocks Indian access to Central Asia via its occupation of Aksai Chin and the Trans-Karakoram tract, which in concert with Pakistani occupied Kashmir prevents an Indian land route to Central Asia: for both a commodity market and energy security. More regionally, China is perceived as a possible long-term adversary because of its continued claims over the state of Arunachal Pradesh, which India is loathe to relinquish. The unresolved borders: Aksai Chin, the Transkarakoram tract and Arunachal Pradesh, gaining in strategic significance every time and the only China has with a nuclear neighbor, creates a recipe for possible conflagration. Moving away from strictly bilateral issues, the India-China engagement is compounded by Chinese construction activity in the P-o-K, which violates the Pakistani position of the territory being disputed and is a direct affront to India's position of the territory being an integral part. From a military standpoint, it enervates India's position as it leads to the possibility of a China-Pakistan logistical axis in the event of a confrontation with Pakistan. India also views China as an elemental long-term threat because of China's dominance of certain rivers as an upper-riparian state, most notably of the Brahmaputra which feeds India's north-eastern states: China has been known to ignore international convention and diplomatic best practices (read threats to Taiwan) even as a previously weaker state, when it deems its "national interest", defined in far more immiscible terms, is at stake. As its military power grows, this impulse is only likely to exacerbate. What makes the combination particularly volatile is that both are irredentist states: India over Kashmir and China over territories it claims its own, including Aksai Chin, the South China Sea, Taiwan and Arunachal Pradesh.

    Whatever 'conventional wisdom' you may hear about the simultaneous rise of nation states being 'non-zero sum', even you must realize and understand that resources are scarce; and in the case of India and China, this predicament is particularly acute. The gains from successful outcomes in competitive engagement are manifold: from secure access to markets and resources to reduced prices and transactional costs to a more assorted range of non-military and military instruments of power to asymmetric ontogeny of technical, technological and industrial bases that offer a distinct, if not decisive, advantage in military conflict, no matter how remote.

    Chinese nuclear support for Pakistan has enabled Pakistan to conduct military misadventures such as the Kargil War which have scuttled peace measures proceeding apace at the time these misadventures were conducted. China's nuclear and military support for Pakistan has also emboldened Pakistan to launch, through its covert 'non-state agents- that elements, within the Pakistani military, have admitted to having full state-backing- relentless acts of terror against the Indian Government and its people: including the attack on the Indian Parliament and the 2008 terror carnage in Mumbai, knowing full well that India's options were limited under enhanced nuclear overhang and that its reprisals could be calibrated via threats of nuclear war. At the time these attacks took place, India and Pakistan were, by the candid admissions of no less than Pakistan's military dictator, a hair's breadth away from resolving the Kashmir issue, and a coterie of other less contentious issues that prevented bilateral ties from being exploited to their full potential. China's continued direct support to the Pakistani military, conventionally and to its intelligence agencies, covertly facilitates the preeminence of these institutions in Pakistani politics and their entrenchment in foreign policy, permits an abiding patronage of non-state actors, prevents democratic discourse and frustrates a diplomatic solution to outstanding issues.

    Pakistan is certainly not China's only 'window' into the Islamic world; nor is it the best among its available. The reasons mentioned afore are certainly compelling enough to reconsider the very flawed proposition. A country like Syria, for example, prior to the Arab Spring, was both geo-politically and geo-economically better positioned for being China's 'gateway' to the Arab world; as well as being more coherent and less susceptible to meandering in its foreign policy. Qatar, the Sudan, the UAE, Algeria and Mali also offer better alternatives: culturally, demographically, geo-economically, geo-politically and regional-organizationally. The argument in terms of making Pakistan the 'gateway' to the Islamic world, is a flawed one: it is neither culturally compatible nor geo-politically significant, and is increasingly dysfunctional.

    Chinese aid is tailored to more than just making Pakistan a 'friendly, stable' neighbor. China's funding of the Gwadar port is a firm example: Pakistan does not need the Gwadar port to be stable, but China does require it a strategic vantage point over and transit point from the Persian Gulf. Pakistan did however require tons of aid to recover after the 2010 floods, for which China provided a paltry $ 9 million (India an enemy state provided well over $25 million). Nor does Pakistan require long-range missiles to achieve nuclear deterrence, which China has ensured it has. Nor for that matter does Pakistan require non-state military actors prosecuting a jihadi war to remain stable, which China has assured it has.
     
  10. no smoking

    no smoking Senior Member Senior Member

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    Yes, you can do that. And we can send the fishing boat, marine police boat to disturb your "exploration" so your cost will reach sky high.

    Just as your tender - Vietnam, claiming the whole SCS too.


    Welcom to the great game!
     
  11. farhan_9909

    farhan_9909 Tihar Jail Banned

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    As far as i know india right now don't have problems with pak only but majority of its neighbour

    1-china
    2-pakistan
    3-bangladesh
    4-Sri lanka(sri lanka inclided toward china and india support for tamils as well)
    5-maldives.recently maldives signed aid agreement with china while refusing the indian tiny aid.
    6-nepal(also getting inclined toward india)
     
  12. ersakthivel

    ersakthivel Senior Member Senior Member

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    as far as I know pak has massive border problem all along the length of the border with afganisthan and simmering insurgencies in balochjstan,and uncontrollable violence in karachi along with deepening strangle hold of fanatics in NWFP.Atfter 60 years of independence pak military sheepishly admits most part of pak-afgan border are not within their control and accepting this fact americans are sending out predator drones to bomb militanys daily.Pakistan reacts with bogus protests and keeps mum when US doent care.

    Seeing through the double game of ISI now the CIA is cultivating it's own sources and hunting for militants in pak soil without the knowledge of PAK government.

    Remember Abottabad raid Americans came in and took out BIn Laden as if it is a third world sub saharan african country and openly declaring had they informed PAK in advance they would have informed Osama facilitating his escape.

    SINCE YOU ARE FOM ABOTTABAD YOU MUST HAVE KNOWN ABOUT THIS RAID.PLEASE SHARE SOME INFO ON IT.

    It's airforce bases are destroyed and naval facilities are attacked resulting in the killing of chinese and french techies working on defence projects in pak by none other than those islamic fanatics who want to take over the country with no help from india.

    Minority Shias and sunnis are murdered at will by islamic terrorists in pak with benign official endorsement.


    While software is the major indian export,suicide bombing jihadhis are the major pakistani export.

    And americans are bombing pak at will for hosting all kinds of islamic terrorists and not a single nation in the world support pakistan's stand on kashmir now.
    Every one knows fully well that if more area of kashmir go into pak hand there will be more suicide bombers all over the world.

    No deeper than ocean and higher than mountain friendship with china can ever help pak over this.
    Remember the 1972 war despite egging on by the likes of Kissinger from US china didnt support PAK in 1972 war ,giving raise to the saying that "CHINA WILL FIGHT INDI TO THE LAST PAKISTANI".

    REMEMBER THAT.

    Heavy chinese armored columns have no way of rolling over the himalayas in any significant numbers and china is going to use pak only as a pawn in south asian great game.China knows deeply that if it sends its armor columns through karakoram pass than , US will join india ,sp they will never do it,instead they are going to egg you on to fight you to the last man dumping some sub standard stuff than even their forces wont accept on your head.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2012
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  13. bose

    bose Senior Member Senior Member

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    My thoughts below...

    I think both the countries are currently more oriented to economic developement & growth rather taking on directly to each other. There will be "niggles" thrown to each other from time to time.

    But make no mistake India is going to RIVAL China in all spheres. China have to know how to live with growing India be it economic or military... India is going to be very different country in next 10 to 15 years.

    The only way out for Pakistan & India is through dialogue & people to people contact... there is no other way left for the two countries... Punishment of Mumbai attackers are MUST for any movement toward peace.

    There is no serious problem between the two countries... whatever left will be sorted out by the leadership of two countries in civilized manner. Bangladesh is too clever to fall into any ones lap so easily... Bangladesh is getting closer to USA day by day...

    Sri Lanka has no option BUT India... look at its geography, they played the same game in 1971 when they allowed the US warships to dock in their ports to niddle India... We have also seen what happened to them there after 1971... hope they are intelligent people have learned from history...

    Their governmant wants to experiment by playing the China card... They need a nudge from India which will come soon...

    We India & Nepal share common BLOOD you know what I mean... Nepal citizens also serve in Indian army... there are few paid agents KEPT by Chineese CCP... We have already exposed these people they will die the natural death...
     
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  14. t_co

    t_co Senior Member Senior Member

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    You're making the mistake of assuming China's friendship with Pakistan means it would fight India on behalf of Pakistan. Again, China's relationship with Pakistan has very little to do with India and very much to do with China needing a Muslim friend to keep stability in Xinjiang and have a voice with the energy exporters of the Middle East.

    India and China, thankfully, are separated by the Himalayas, which makes it exceedingly difficult for India to actually threaten the Chinese core.

    Indeed, China would be quite happy if Pakistan and India could have a better relationship, as it means that its friendship with Pakistan would carry less risk. That's why China doesn't really mind the US using Predator Drones in Waziristan, or killing Osama Bin Laden without informing the ISI beforehand.
     
  15. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    As far as I know, India does have issues with some, but not problems that are volcanic or can cause a catharsis.

    On the other hand, Pakistan is unfortunately placed where it has a volcanic situation not only externally, but internally too and which is spinning out of control.
     
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  16. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    An interesting statement.

    A Chinese Colonel of the Canadian Army, who is a China watcher, had said China will fight India to the last Pakistani!
     
  17. hello_10

    hello_10 Tihar Jail Banned

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    I would like to complete this above discussion, just to keep a record of it. the above proposal was a response to the question raised by one pakistani national, "what pakistan got this way after so many conflicts with India?" and this proposal was meant to make Pakistan in "no loss" position. Defense expenditure of Pakistan was around $4.2billions in 2009 and it was assumed by us that Pakistan might be spending around $1.0 billion in addition due to its conflicts with India, as anyhow they need a defence similar to ASEAN nations, even if they dont have any conflict with India. and after 64 years of Independence in 1947, Pakistan has got $64billions foreign debt and this $64billions offer will eventually make them in the position of no loss with India :thumb:

    it was also cleared that meaning of Foreign Debt is much more than Internal debt as even if you spend more on the defence, it is then kept inside the country and the military personnel/arm industries also pay direct tax on it, and then they spend that money inside the country itself generating Indirect tax also this way. hence even if Pakistan was spending around $4.2billion on defence annually, as of 2009, it would be getting at least $2.0billions back as taxes. but if the money goes to foreign, its the total loss :wave:. hence, meaning of Foreign Debt is much more than internal debt and a struggling economy of Pakistan may suddenly become a healthy economy this way.

    2nd, the offer was made in the light of the news that Pakistan could lease POK to China, so why not to India, as Kashmiris are in fact very different to Chinese. and also we won support on our stand on the facts that even if Pakistan is an "All Weather Friend" of China, its the POK, from where the support/arms go to "Xinxiang Uighur Autonomous Region" of China, making it the only terrorism affect state of China. while even if India is considered as an rival of China, there is no such export of terrorism from India to China. and POK under control of India will also give an assurance of peace to Xinxiang state of China this way :china:
    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/gilgit-baltistan/31577-pakistan-lease-gilgit-baltistan-china.html

    3rd, Time Frame: the time frame of the above proposal is based on that certain time when Pakistan may not be able to keep Baluchistan with it. and that certain time would be the best for Pakistan to get rid of its total foreign debt this way, for promising a bring future for at least the rest of people based in Punjab+Sindh .........

    4th, the proposal would come with offering Indian Citizenship to around 3.0mil people of Azad Kashmir and 2.0mil of Gilgit-Baltistan, a total of around 5.0 millions population of this certain region, with separating all those migrants who aren't belonging of POK :thumb:

    this deal would bring total Northern Area, POK, in green of the map as below, with leaving the issue of that part of POK which Pakistan has gifted to China .......

    Gilgit-Baltistan - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Azad Kashmir - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    [​IMG]


    => Uighurs and China's Xinjiang Region

    XUAR (Xinxiang Uighur Autonomous Region), or East Turkistan, is a territory in western China that accounts for one-sixth of China's land and is home to about twenty million people from thirteen major ethnic groups, the largest of which (more than eight million) is the Uighurs [PRON: WEE-gurs], a predominantly Muslim community with ties to Central Asia. The Uyghur American Association (UAA) says that East Turkistan is a part of Central Asia, not of China. Some Uighurs call China's presence in Xinjiang a form of imperialism, and there have been movements for independence since the1990s through separatist groups like the East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM), inflamed in part by large migrations of Han Chinese to the region.

    In February 2012, at least a dozen people died after being attacked on the street by Muslims armed with knives near Kashgar, the western part of Xinxiang located near China's border with Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. After the Chinese government said the men involved had links to terrorists in Pakistan, a Chinese woman was also killed in Pakistan in what was considered a retaliatory attack. China claims the rioters were trained in Pakistan and has asked Pakistan to take "credible measures" to safeguard its citizens. XUAR shares borders with five Muslim countries--Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, and Pakistan--which seems to be a Chinese concern. The China-Pakistan relationship in particular has been strained by the recent killings, and questions about China's traditional friendship with Pakistan are rising.

    Terrorism and Counterterrorism

    During the 1990s, Uighur separatist groups in Xinjiang began frequent attacks against the Chinese government. The most famous of these groups was the ETIM, labeled as a terrorist organization by China, the United States, and the UN Security Council. China claims the group has links to al-Qaeda and says that they were trained in jihadi terror camps in Pakistan to launch attacks in Urumqi. Reports say Pakistani officials have also admitted that the militants in western China have ties to the Pakistani Taliban and other militants in northwestern Pakistani regions along the Afghan border. Pakistan, a close ally, has assured China of full support to contain terrorism in China. Concern about Uighur terrorism flared in August 2008--just days before the Beijing Olympics--when two men attacked a military police unit (NYT) in Xinjiang, killing sixteen.

    Uighurs and China's Xinjiang Region - Council on Foreign Relations
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2012

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