Why India was historically so weak?

Status
Not open for further replies.

DBF1954

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Messages
48
Likes
41
The Indians just use a different way: Where other use tanks and guns they use Curry and Yoga to take over the world :namaste:

All empires from the Romans to the Soviet Union have come to an end, and if Indians are clever enough not to establish colonies in Africa or South America it is appreciated.
 

xuxu

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
33
Likes
41
I want to point a guess, may be wrong, the hot weather!!!

As for China, in history most new Dynasty are begin from North of Yangzi river, then unified the South part of Yanzi river and became a new dynasty,south of Yangzi river is >10 degree in winter while north of Yangzi is <10 degree in winter, food only grow when temperature>10 degree, south part can get food easer and hot weather make people dazed mind and easy to want lazy. North part people must work hard on bad weather and need different cloth for different seasons and store food, if one doesn't store food and clothe in autumn will die in winter, one should become stronger to keep live.

Look at the map of the world, no developed countries in tropic zone nere equator, nerely all at Temperate zone, and too hot weather brings some problem, such as in 2010, China Sociologists found that rape rate in China increase 1% as temperature increases 2 degree, lowest rate in Feb but highest in Aug.
 
Last edited:

Pratap

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Messages
1,260
Likes
508
@Sakal Gharelu Ustad

]Every civilization had one or two generations which outshone others
We Indians had no generation apart from Mauryas( at that time we were tribal and primitive) which outshone Chinese, Persians or Europeans at any point of time. Mauryas were strong but were intellectually bankrupt as compared to Chinese and Greeks.


India is a big country with infighting and so not always ready for fighting the foreign invasions. But Indians were also pretty good at some other times. For eg. Ranjit Singh wrested back part of Afghan empire where even the English feared to venture at the top of their military might.
And same English ruled Punjab easily. Afghans have ruled Punjab for centuries so I do not know what you are talking about. One short rule means nothing. Afghanistan was poor so left alone by English.


So not point painting the whole country with one brush. Given that our old traditions and Hindu religion still exists, they must have fought well somewhere sometime. You cannot be the best all the time
I am not talking about being best. I do not understand why we were worst everytime. The shakas who were kicked by third rate powers ruled us for centuries, Mohd Ghori who was smashed by Khwarizm enslaved entire north India, Babar a loser in his own home, came and established his dynasty serving which became habit of Rajputs, Sikhs and Marathas.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Pratap

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Messages
1,260
Likes
508
Bharatiya History is vast, Which period you are referring ? ..

If you mean last 500 years, Then its has been discussed here many time before ..
I am talking about entire history. First we were conquered by Persians, then Indo greeks, Shakas and Kushanas, Hunas , in ancient times. A large empire like Gupta collapsed like house of cards before tormana and Mihirkula who were just third rate chieftains of Hepthalites.
 

Pratap

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Messages
1,260
Likes
508
I think the real problem with us Indians is THE SHORT SIGHTEDNESS > which happens to be a problem in today's day to day objectives as well. We simply cant or find ourselves incapable of planning objectively. We just think of problems in terms of "oh how do I get out of this mess first!" we see this problem prevalent in todays traffic jams, town planning, on Govt planning ... everyone seems to think "oh this is what will get ME out of this mess" the hell with what will happen after I am gone its the other guys headache. Individual growth is important, but it has to be achived with progress of the system as well. watch this video, the guy on whos real life this film is based on , got a Nobel prize for this theory :

Thanks for response. You really have made some good points still it does not explain why large empires collapsed so easily against invaders.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Pratap

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Messages
1,260
Likes
508
@p2prada

]We had empires the foreign invaders wouldn't even dream of fighting and at the same time we had amazing empires which were trampled day and night by the invaders
Apart from Mauryans, I do not think there was any empire which fared well against foreign invaders. Mauryans were finally overcome by Greeks so I do not know about"foreign invaders would not dream of fighting" thing.


There are far too many reasons, socio-economic, politics and military. Even weather.
Agreed.

We fared far better than the Europeans and the Persians against the Mongols and the Huns.
Are you joking? Who are " we " here? Khiljis were TurkoAfghans and were ruling over Indians so I do not know how you can call them Indians.( This is balderdash completely)
Sahansahi dynasty of Iran was nearest to huns and it survived and shone like stars whereas Gupta dynasty collapsed for good in front of some chieftains of Hepthalites.

Mongols never attacked India seriously as their major commanders were busy fighting Muslims and Chinese.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Pratap

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Messages
1,260
Likes
508
The Indians just use a different way: Where other use tanks and guns they use Curry and Yoga to take over the world :namaste:

All empires from the Romans to the Soviet Union have come to an end, and if Indians are clever enough not to establish colonies in Africa or South America it is appreciated.

Roman empire has not come to end, you are still using Roman letters and term" empire" itself is Roman. Roman culture is alive to this day in form of Christianity.
 

shinoj

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Mar 30, 2014
Messages
201
Likes
86
There is one Main Reason is that we Indians for some reason Backstab each Other. Porus was backstabbed by King Ambhi. Prithvi was betrayed by his Own Kingsman Jaychand. Shivaji was time and again denied help by the Rajputs against the Mughals and so on. We never could overcome Regionalism and embrace Nationalism.


Also, we were very Kind as Ruler. Prithvi captured Ghauri for god Knows how many times but left him each time. Should have killed that Central Asian Mughal Dog from tearing one ear to another and pulling his beard down to his ****** and just dump his body in the Local Gutter and name it as Mohammed Ghauri Gutter of Ajmer.
 
Last edited:

Pratap

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Messages
1,260
Likes
508
@bennedose



Your questions indicate that your reading of Indian history comes from particular sources that make you believe the things you write.

Without meaning to offend I would like to point out that you are pre-biasing the discussion by making assumptions in your questions based on a biased version of history.
Thanks for politeness . I might also say that you have a baised version of Indian history due to nationalistic purposes. Please note that I am well read in history and read modern books not 19th century ones.


Every single question you have asked has emerged from a fundamentally racist white supremacist Judaeo Christian view of India's past written by generations of British and other western historians from the 1800s and copied by Indian historians because they got their degrees and qualifications from the same system as the western historians.
Conspiracy theory. So the fact that 10,000 Turks defeated entire Bengal, 13000 Mughals smashed Rana Sanga's 60,000 army and Indo greeks who were thrd rate destroyed Mauryan empire becomes wrong just because they were written by " white supremacists". We have moved and we can verify whether what 19th century historians wrote was correct or not. You people are stuck in 19th century and are always busy in seeing conspiracy everywhere.

India did not have horses? Utter crap. Check your reading. Harappan figurines include horses. 3000 BC. Western scholars have argued that Indians horses were not real horses - which is a cop out.
I meant good horses. Harappa is out of discussion here. If Indians had good horses, it further solidifies my position.


Indians were never gentle and peaceful. They killed like anyone else. A reaction of bestial violence in India led to the rise of pacifist Buddhism and jainism - and followers of both religions have been attacked in India. So that Gandhian statement about pacifism is rubbish. We are hardly pacifist. Effeminate is bullshit. Its is a ignorant western take. (Read Sudhir Kakar's book on The Indian mind) In fact the Indian view is that if a man is clean shaven (no moustache) or loves another man he is effeminate. Only women and children don't have moustaches.
That is problem of Indians. They are highly westernized and use a subjective book of a western agent( confirmed by his loyalty to Wendy Doniger) if it suits their agenda. These people call me as having lapped up western nonsense.
Your idea of Buddhism and Jainism being peaceful is nonsense. Read Sri Lankan and Burmese history and bloodshed there would make look Algerians as childs. Kharavela and many generals in Chalukyas were Jains and so were many south Indian dynasties. They performed lot of atrocities on Shaivas of Tamil Nadu. I agree that we were quite violent .


Caste system? My my. You have been filling yourself with western literature - but not your fault. All Indians are educated with this crap. we all follow the jati system' Jati is our community and extended family. Varna was the connection of profession with extended family - like Gujarati diamond merchants. Portuguese and Brits mixed up the jatio and varna system and called it "caste" and we Indians have now internalized that word and are apologizing to the world. We need to re educate ourselves IMO
Hindu version of Taqiya ( though this is because of confusion). Anyway, so we agree that caste was not responsible for our defeats.


Indians not up to the mark?

In fact the Indian education ssytem after Macaulay in 1853 or so was based on showing to Indians that they are not up to the mark. Every Indian educated in India right from the 1880s has been taught that he, his system, his background and his history are all not up to the mark? What mark? The mark that the Brits set for us. The mark that automatically put "White, Christian and non Indian above kaloo, Hindoo, faltoo" And too many Indians believe that.

Keep out Macaulay and Max Muller. When Kushanas were ruling entire land from Bihar to Kabul, there was no Macaulay or Max Muller.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Pratap

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Messages
1,260
Likes
508
@Bhadra

Look what happened to humanity in North America ? Was not it conquered by the Europeans ?

What happened in Austrailia?

You are comparing fate of aborigines of Australia who were stone age hunter gatherers and did not know how to kindle fire, ate their own parents after their death with Indians. This is your benchmark. Be happy if you think that our survival unlike hunter gatherers is a great thing.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

p2prada

Senior Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,015
Are you joking? Who are " we " here? Khiljis were TurkoAfghans and were ruling over Indians so I do not know how you can call them Indians.( This is balderdash completely)
Sahansahi dynasty of Iran was nearest to huns and it survived and shone like stars whereas Gupta dynasty collapsed for good in front of some chieftains of Hepthalites.

Mongols never attacked India seriously as their major commanders were busy fighting Muslims and Chinese.
You forgot the Gupta empire.
Gupta Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Skandagupta was followed by weak rulers Purugupta (467–473), Kumaragupta II (473–476), Budhagupta (476–495?), Narasimhagupta, Kumaragupta III, Vishnugupta, Vainyagupta and Bhanugupta. In the 480's the Hephthalites broke through the Gupta defenses in the northwest, and much of the empire in northwest was overrun by the Hun by 500. The empire disintegrated under the attacks of Toramana and his successor Mihirakula. It appears from inscriptions that the Guptas, although their power was much diminished, continued to resist the Huns. The Hun invader Toramana was defeated by Bhanugupta in 510 CE.[36][37] The Huns were defeated and driven out of India in 528 AD by a coalition consisting of Gupta emperor Narasimhagupta and the king Yashodharman from Malwa.[38] The succession of the sixth-century Guptas is not entirely clear, but the tail end recognized ruler of the dynasty's main line was king Vishnugupta, reigning from 540 to 550. In addition to the Hun invasion, the factors, which contribute to the decline of the empire include competition from the Vakatakas and the rise of Yashodharman in Malwa.

Also, The Greeks invaded AFTER the Mauryan dynasty ended. That's after Sunga took over.

As for the Mongols, they did invade many times in large numbers, but their attempts were always thwarted by the Khiljis. Whatever the Khiljis did, the majority of their army were Indians anyway, so their efforts count for something. It's like saying India had no part during WW2 because the British were ruling us.
 

Pratap

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Messages
1,260
Likes
508
I want to point a guess, may be wrong, the hot weather!!!

As for China, in history most new Dynasty are begin from North of Yangzi river, then unified the South part of Yanzi river and became a new dynasty,south of Yangzi river is >10 degree in winter while north of Yangzi is <10 degree in winter, food only grow when temperature>10 degree, south part can get food easer and hot weather make people dazed mind and easy to want lazy. North part people must work hard on bad weather and need different cloth for different seasons and store food, if one doesn't store food and clothe in autumn will die in winter, one should become stronger to keep live.

Look at the map of the world, no developed countries in tropic zone nere equator, nerely all at Temperate zone, and too hot weather brings some problem, such as in 2010, China Sociologists found that rape rate in China increase 1% as temperature increases 2 degree, lowest rate in Feb but highest in Aug.
Please answer one question. Why you Chinese are so smart?
Your reply is what can be called a proper reason. True South Chinese were always kicked by powers of North ( chinese friends use this word) like Song by Jins, Mings by Manchus and Kuomintag by Communists.
 

shinoj

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Mar 30, 2014
Messages
201
Likes
86
Was India really weak ?

But by what standard and whose standards ?

How and with whom should we compare to forward the hypothesis?

With Egyptian civilisation, with Europeans, with Chinese Civilisation, with Roman Civilisation, The Greeks or with Arabs , Turks or Persians..?

Look what happened to humanity in North America ? Was not it conquered by the Europeans ?

What happened in Austrailia?

What happened in Arab, Persian and Turkish worlds after they were overrun by Islam and Islamic Conquerors ?

India withstood everything ?

The Greek onslaughts of gigantic proportions, The Islamic barbarian plunders for 2000 years, the British, Spanish , the French and Portugese plunder of 200 years......

We suffered devastation of our land, agriculture, cities, administration, education, culture, commerce trade and industry throughout these invasions.....

Indians suffered famines, draughts, enslavement brought in by these assaults ..... we lost our kingdoms.... our Armies, ... our women and children.... our universities and our craftsmen.....

But where are those conquorers today ??

We the vanquished are here only ? Why ?

Because as Pratap, the initiator of this thread who is infatuated with the marauders and their racial streaks, would like us to believe, we should commit suicide considering our past...

On the contrary, there is something else in us that makes us stand even today.... not like red Indians or aboriginals who are almost extinct ...

Not that the Muslims did not want us to perish...
Not that the British fell in love with us and did not wish to erase India of humanity as they did in Australia or North America ?


There is something in our balls that I stand even today where I do... a proud man whose ancestors were the biggest scientists, creators, mathematicians, linguists and what not and what not..... where everyone from Chinese to French to Arabians to Greeks used to visit to seek the light of the age...

They will again .... attack. We shall again defend. They will perish .. we will stand....
This is too Idealistic. I mean imagine if we had defeated and kicked out the Mughals and not let the British conquer us with their hideous Plan, What Height our Indian Civilization could have reached :proud:

We had such established Univerisities like the Nalanda, Takshishilla and we had countless other achievements and still we are not as recognised in the World as we should be.

We have lost out beautiful fertile Places like the Punjab Pakistan, we still are at UNs mercy regarding our own Land like Kashmir. Imagine if a country like Mexico was doing the same thing to united States.

Its an achivement that we are still standing as we are but my firm belief was our strength could have gone 10 Folds had we instropected and not allowed Foreign Rulers to Rule over Us.

Before the British Empire, around 20 % of World Exports was done by India, Just Imagine our Prowess what we could have become now. We would have been writing in Sanskrit in this Forum instead of English.
 

p2prada

Senior Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,015
and if Indians are clever enough not to establish colonies in Africa or South America it is appreciated.
I think we have already started something of this kind in Africa. But we are setting up an economic colony of mutual benefit, not an administrative colony like the west did.
 

Pratap

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Messages
1,260
Likes
508
@p2prada


You forgot the Gupta empire.
I did not as clear from my post.



Skandagupta was followed by weak rulers Purugupta (467–473), Kumaragupta II (473–476), Budhagupta (476–495?), Narasimhagupta, Kumaragupta III, Vishnugupta, Vainyagupta and Bhanugupta. In the 480's the Hephthalites broke through the Gupta defenses in the northwest, and much of the empire in northwest was overrun by the Hun by 500. The empire disintegrated under the attacks of Toramana and his successor Mihirakula. It appears from inscriptions that the Guptas, although their power was much diminished, continued to resist the Huns. The Hun invader Toramana was defeated by Bhanugupta in 510 CE.[36][37] The Huns were defeated and driven out of India in 528 AD by a coalition consisting of Gupta emperor Narasimhagupta and the king Yashodharman from Malwa.[38] The succession of the sixth-century Guptas is not entirely clear, but the tail end recognized ruler of the dynasty's main line was king Vishnugupta, reigning from 540 to 550. In addition to the Hun invasion, the factors, which contribute to the decline of the empire include competition from the Vakatakas and the rise of Yashodharman in Malwa.

Please compare our record with Persian Sahansahi dynasty( you claimed that Persian record was worse which is nonsense). The chieftains like Mihirkula were just some offshoot splinter group of Hunas and were not any great kings.


As for the Mongols, they did invade many times in large numbers, but their attempts were always thwarted by the Khiljis. Whatever the Khiljis did, the majority of their army were Indians anyway, so their efforts count for something. It's like saying India had no part during WW2 because the British were ruling us.
Indians did not play any part in WW2 and every scholar would agree. Your statement is wrong on many counts.
1. Logically, you can not take credit for your master's victory.
2. Mongols did not invade in large numbers( tell me a single commander of Mongols who is renowned and who attacked us)
3. No evidence that majority of Khilji horsemen were Indians( not that it matters).

Also, The Greeks invaded AFTER the Mauryan dynasty ended. That's after Sunga took over.
Wrong. Mauryan dynasty ended because Greeks overran large part of India. When you are invaded by foreign groups, your dynasty's legitimacy ends. Pushyamitra succeeded in his revolt because of this factor . North western India was ruled by Indo Greeks before end of Mauryas.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Pratap

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Messages
1,260
Likes
508
@shinoj

here is one Main Reason is that we Indians for some reason Backstab each Other. Porus was backstabbed by King Ambhi. Prithvi was betrayed by his Own Kingsman Jaychand. Shivaji was time and again denied help by the Rajputs against the Mughals and so on. We never could overcome Regionalism and embrace Nationalism.
I agree. Please note that Puru himself " backstabbed" Madras of Sialkot when he helped Alex in butchering them by supplying 5000 soldiers.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

p2prada

Senior Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,015
Look at the map of the world, no developed countries in tropic zone nere equator, nerely all at Temperate zone,
I don't think there is a relation because we were richer than China for the better part of 2 millenniums.
 

Pratap

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Messages
1,260
Likes
508
Before the British Empire, around 20 % of World Exports was done by India, Just Imagine our Prowess what we could have become now. We would have been writing in Sanskrit in this Forum instead of English
So did China.

We had such established Univerisities like the Nalanda, Takshishilla
Please tell me some " scientists " from your " universities". It is amazing that some large places for shaven headed Buddhist monks are now called "universities".
 

Pratap

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Messages
1,260
Likes
508
I don't think there is a relation because we were richer than China for the better part of 2 millenniums.
Wrong and pure crap. Chinese productivity of rice was 1.3 tonnes in Song age( 960-1279) and our productivity in 1950s was less than half of that.
The largest city in ancient India was Kaushambi a mere 280 hectares whereas Chinese cities had areas in thousands of hectares. when Chinese were using cheques and paper currency, we were using barter system.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top