Why India was historically so weak?

Discussion in 'Religion & Culture' started by Pratap, Apr 3, 2014.

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  1. Pratap

    Pratap Tihar Jail Banned

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    As the title says I would like our members opinion on this. Every state in India has a history of foreign rule of many centuries except some far off regions like Kerala. What were the causes?

    1. Hindus were gentle, peaceful and " effeminate"?

    2. India did not have horses?

    3. Indians had caste system?

    4. Indians were simply not up to mark?
     
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  3. Peter

    Peter Senior Member Senior Member

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    3 and 1(without effeminate part)
     
  4. Pratap

    Pratap Tihar Jail Banned

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    Gentle and peaceful nature leads to effeminate types but can you explain how caste was responsible and how we were peaceful? I am sure you do not have opinion poll on how Indians behaved in those days. Given the extensive infighting among Indian powers, I do not buy the peaceful theory. Every state had groups who were plunderers and even small states could put thousands of men in battlefield. I read Kerala history and found immense fighting with every district being involved in feuds of bloody nature.
    Bengal itself had Sasanka and Palas who were quite aggressive and controlled lands as far as Kannauj.
    Peaceful nature of Indians is myth given higher crime rate than confucian nations and large number of soldiers kept by Indian states. I do not think that Cholas who were raping women of Chalukya domain or Vijaynagar whose soldiers destroyed lot of cities during their invasion of Ahmed nagar or Rana Sanga who was sacking Gujarati towns or Pandyas who destroyed Chola capital and salted their fields were " peaceful". Yet when faced with foreign Islamic powers, they collapsed as easily as it could have been possible.

    There are many cases in medieval India of Kings killing rivals and playing game with decapitated heads or cooking head with rice and offering that to Bhairava. How can we call them peaceful and gentle?
     
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  5. PredictablyMalicious

    PredictablyMalicious Punjabi Senior Member

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    Indians are not any more peaceful than any other race. Indians are just not very ideological. The Japanese and Germans fought a total war of existence for the sake of their respective ideologies. Indians are incapable of fighting a total war because we do not attach ourselves to ideologies. In other words, Indians are not nationalistic as nationalism is also a powerful ideology. Hinduism is also a weak faith in that it fails to inspire an ideological fervor in its followers on levels that Abrahamic faiths often do. Look at the crusades for example.
     
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  6. Pratap

    Pratap Tihar Jail Banned

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    Chinese and Koreans were never Abrahmics yet they have so good record in battlefield. Infact, Buddhist Burmese proved much resistant than Muslims of Pakistan to British.

    I agree somewhat with lack of ideology and selfishness being there high but it still does not explain why 15,000 Turks of Ghazanavi defeating 42,000 Sahis( ancestors of Dogras and Punjabis)? It was simply a battle not any war of attrition so why such poor performance. Please note that Sahis had good horses and so excuse of military hardware would not work.
     
  7. PredictablyMalicious

    PredictablyMalicious Punjabi Senior Member

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    I'm sure there are other factors at play that you have not considered. I'm not familar with this so I can't be too specific. I think it's important to rule out everything else before appealing to genetic factors, such as the martial race theory. I don't think this holds much water.
     
  8. Pratap

    Pratap Tihar Jail Banned

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    Martial race theory is not just genetics but also cultural. In my view, 15,000 turks easily destroyed 42,000 Sahis because Turks were a martial race meaning not only they had great bodies and were fine horsemen but were also full of fervor and had a culture where strategy and tactics were highly honed. Vis a vis an average Punjabi, a Turk was stronger, adept at intelligent use of tactics and full of fervor.
    All this means that Indians were not good soldiers so choice number 4.

    Those who laugh at martial race theory should explain why Vijaynagar empire with so great resources lost so easily to Bahmanis many times and during Ramaraya was destroyed once Deccan states united.
    16,000 horsemen destroyed entire South India under Malik Kafur in 1311.
     
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  9. Pratap

    Pratap Tihar Jail Banned

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    @atheisthindu

    Tell me how Marathas with so much resources lost to Abdali?
     
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  10. jus

    jus Senior Member Senior Member

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    If u see Indian Sub continent the Barbarian Invaders have only one way to attack india i.e Present day Pakistan (India north Mighty HIMALAYAS,South sea)
    so the sindh (pak) accepted&converted ........Wast Punjab accepted &converted.......so they don't face much wrath of Invaders
    But MARATHAS/RAJPUTS/SIKHS (PRESENT DAY PROVINCES) ....... Not surrendered easily and they fight back..............so REST OF INDIA IS SAFE or not necessary to fight

    Except sindh&west pjb Rest of India is not Weak :rofl: we see even today :lol:

    p.s don't forget those three may make a Peace deal or give some area to invaders may defeated BUT NOT ACCEPTED DEFEAT AND keep on Fighting (Guerrilla war)
     
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  11. Pratap

    Pratap Tihar Jail Banned

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    I would like to share just one interesting fact. Some 2000 years ago, Northern China had a fierce nomadic group called Xiongnu by Chinese. They proved much disastrous to Chinese but Han emperor Wu di defeated them and they came under severe pressure from Han chinese emperor.
    The Xiongnu turned their attention and attacked Yuezhi who were simply kicked out of China and came to Kabul valley. These Kushanas in turn kicked easily shakas who came to India. These shakas kicked by kushans established themselves in large parts of India reaching into deccan as far as Nasik and Pune . The kushans controlled an entire empire from Bihar to uzbekistan. ( please note how weak kushans were before xiongnu who were weak before Hans) The shakas slaves of everybody now became powerful in India and in Gujarat ruled for 400 years until they were destroyed by Guptas.

    Why such poor military record with losers in their own homes enslaving us easily? Scyhians did not have more than few thousand soldiers yet they battled with Satvahans quite easily.
     
  12. Pratap

    Pratap Tihar Jail Banned

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    UP, Bengal and Bihar constitute one third of entire Indian subcontinent population and were easily ruled by muslims from 1200 AD till British.
    Maharashtra collapsed easily against Khiljis and Marathas ruled easily by muslims for 4 centuries.
    Punjab ruled for 5 centuries .
    Orissa ruled for 2 centuries by Muslims and 2 centuries by British.

    North Karnataka and Telangana ruled for centuries by muslims with Telangana getting independence in 1948.


    This would give you idea of how much we have been ruled by foreigners. I am not talking about resistance but rather poor record at battlefields.
     
  13. Pratap

    Pratap Tihar Jail Banned

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    UP, Bengal and Bihar constitute one third of entire Indian subcontinent population and were easily ruled by muslims from 1200 AD till British.
    Maharashtra collapsed easily against Khiljis and Marathas ruled easily by muslims for 4 centuries.
    Punjab ruled for 5 centuries .
    Orissa ruled for 2 centuries by Muslims and 2 centuries by British.

    North Karnataka and Telangana ruled for centuries by muslims with Telangana getting independence in 1948.


    This would give you idea of how much we have been ruled by foreigners. I am not talking about resistance but rather poor record at battlefields.
     
  14. jus

    jus Senior Member Senior Member

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    ALL MUSLIMS R NOT INVADERS..................only Babur is outsider Rest are Born here (Half HIndu)............don't forget those three may make a Peace deal or give some area to invaders may defeated BUT NOT ACCEPTED DEFEAT AND keep on Fighting (Guerrilla war)

    and KILJI BuLJIs are only made sind punjab (Delhi part in panjab)........but MARATHAS/RAJPUTS/SIKHS keep on fighting
     
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  15. Sakal Gharelu Ustad

    Sakal Gharelu Ustad Detests Jholawalas Moderator

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    Every civilization had one or two generations which outshone others. India is a big country with infighting and so not always ready for fighting the foreign invasions. But Indians were also pretty good at some other times. For eg. Ranjit Singh wrested back part of Afghan empire where even the English feared to venture at the top of their military might.

    So not point painting the whole country with one brush. Given that our old traditions and Hindu religion still exists, they must have fought well somewhere sometime. You cannot be the best all the time.
     
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  16. jus

    jus Senior Member Senior Member

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    @Pratap
    DELHI THRONE not represent ENTIRE India
    Gupta/Mourya is just FAIRY TALES without horses/MODERN ARTILLARY:lol: it is impossible to CONTROL WHOLE INDIAN sub continent
    and Hinduism is not Religion(i'm hindu) this is the WAY OF LIFE in this particular LAND
    and u see sind&west punjab people total confuse because islam is Arab way of life (culture) not suited in subcontinent so paki's r confused
    INDIA is Geography not COUNTRY like EUROPE.......... and MARATHAS/RAJPUTS/SIKHS are 3 countries/present day provinces
     
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  17. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Bharatiya History is vast, Which period you are referring ? ..

    If you mean last 500 years, Then its has been discussed here many time before ..
     
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  18. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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  19. Prometheus

    Prometheus Regular Member

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    I think the real problem with us Indians is THE SHORT SIGHTEDNESS > which happens to be a problem in today's day to day objectives as well. We simply cant or find ourselves incapable of planning objectively. We just think of problems in terms of "oh how do I get out of this mess first!" we see this problem prevalent in todays traffic jams, town planning, on Govt planning ... everyone seems to think "oh this is what will get ME out of this mess" the hell with what will happen after I am gone its the other guys headache. Individual growth is important, but it has to be achived with progress of the system as well. watch this video, the guy on whos real life this film is based on , got a Nobel prize for this theory :
     
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  20. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    We had empires the foreign invaders wouldn't even dream of fighting and at the same time we had amazing empires which were trampled day and night by the invaders.

    There are far too many reasons, socio-economic, politics and military. Even weather.

    We fared far better than the Europeans and the Persians against the Mongols and the Huns.
     
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  21. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    Your questions indicate that your reading of Indian history comes from particular sources that make you believe the things you write.

    Without meaning to offend I would like to point out that you are pre-biasing the discussion by making assumptions in your questions based on a biased version of history.

    Every single question you have asked has emerged from a fundamentally racist white supremacist Judaeo Christian view of India's past written by generations of British and other western historians from the 1800s and copied by Indian historians because they got their degrees and qualifications from the same system as the western historians.

    I would like to tear down every question one by one and ask why it has been worded in that way, but I'm not sure I have the time.

    Indians were never gentle and peaceful. They killed like anyone else. A reaction of bestial violence in India led to the rise of pacifist Buddhism and jainism - and followers of both religions have been attacked in India. So that Gandhian statement about pacifism is rubbish. We are hardly pacifist. Effeminate is bullshit. Its is a ignorant western take. (Read Sudhir Kakar's book on The Indian mind) In fact the Indian view is that if a man is clean shaven (no moustache) or loves another man he is effeminate. Only women and children don't have moustaches.

    India did not have horses? Utter crap. Check your reading. Harappan figurines include horses. 3000 BC. Western scholars have argued that Indians horses were not real horses - which is a cop out.

    Caste system? My my. You have been filling yourself with western literature - but not your fault. All Indians are educated with this crap. we all follow the jati system' Jati is our community and extended family. Varna was the connection of profession with extended family - like Gujarati diamond merchants. Portuguese and Brits mixed up the jatio and varna system and called it "caste" and we Indians have now internalized that word and are apologizing to the world. We need to re educate ourselves IMO

    Indians not up to the mark?

    In fact the Indian education ssytem after Macaulay in 1853 or so was based on showing to Indians that they are not up to the mark. Every Indian educated in India right from the 1880s has been taught that he, his system, his background and his history are all not up to the mark? What mark? The mark that the Brits set for us. The mark that automatically put "White, Christian and non Indian above kaloo, Hindoo, faltoo" And too many Indians believe that.

    Indians lack self esteem and respect for each other because of this type of education
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
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