Why India does not have CAS crafts?

Singh

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Just imagine that!

A primitive way to checkmate a sophisticated machine!

So, what is important is the environment of operations.
Look up Iran's Naval strategy for the Hormuz Strait. They plan to use suicide fast boats to take out US Navy. And in a war simulation their strategy turned out to be lethal. America possibly has no answer to that. And then they have buried tons of missiles on the beaches, to overwhelm the American defences.
 

TrueSpirit

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Turbo-prop have some advantages over Jets..

1. Fuel Economy aka lesser operational costs, Also lesser maintenance cost Also lesser unit price.
2. Ability of Short landing and take off from rugged or no run way just plain fields..
3. More or less Similar Payload specs ( LGB, Rocket pods, Guns, A2A & A2G guided missiles combos ) with jets..
4. More loitering time compare to Jet over battlefield..
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/military-aviation/14807-air-power-cheap.html
Yeah, but when fuel economy or "economy" itself is not the prime concern (US/USSR), we see the over-reliance on & preponderance of jet aircrafts rather than turbo-prop. Case in point: A-10 Fairchild, AC-130 Spooky & Su-25.

So, for countries like us, IMHO, it makes more sense to have a decent mix of CAS jet aircrafts (upgraded Mig 27's+Jags+Multirole's would do the job) + Turboprops (maybe, SM-27 Machete, Pilatus PC-21, Super Tucano or, even Air Tractor AT-802 ??? ).
 

TrueSpirit

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A multi-role aircraft is most likely going to be with the IAF, and not IAAW. If it is with IAF, it will only add to the bureaucratic burden. Having a dedicated CAS aircraft for IAAW would improve operational alacrity. Can India afford dedicated CAS aircraft for IAAW? With the money India has been spending lately, I don't see why not.
The last article on this page throws some light on it: The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Opinions

Revving up the airborne force multiplier by Vijay Mohan
 

p2prada

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I apologize if my last post came off as unduly harsh.
No, it was my post that was harsh, so I apologize for it.

I was saying that the IAF shouldn't worry itself with CAS considerations when selecting their MRCA - instead, they should think more rationally about what missions they will need their next generation of fighter aircraft to accomplish.

Warfare is increasingly not about defeating your opponent's ability to fight back, or even to move around - it's defeating his ability to comprehend the battlefield, decide on the battlefield, and communicate on the battlefield.

Basically, I'm advocating for culling CAS from the IAF's mission profile altogether, and transferring it to the IAAW.
This is my view as well. However the IAF won't allow fixed wings control to be transferred to the AAC (Army Aviation Corps). The thing is IA fought a hard pressed battle to gain IAF approval to buy attack helicopters. IA is currently trying to persuade IAF to give up control of medium lift helicopters and they seem to be failing at it. In light of this IAF will never allow IA to control fixed wing assets.

IAF stand is that the future is all about networking and inter-operability and hence even CAS should fall under their control. Whatever you or I wish, IAF won't relent.

Apart from that, as mentioned already, we would rather buy one MRCA aircraft over 2 or 3 CAS aircraft. Better bang for the buck. There is also the question of survivability of CAS aircraft over contested airspace. So it is better to have Rafales launching cluster munitions, SDBs or Hellfires or Helinas in a CAS mission while carrying MICAs for self protection.

CAS has worked for us in the past, read Battle of Longewala. Had it not been for air power, we could have had at least one major setback in the '71 war.

Sukhoi's new CAS aircraft might be the only modern aircraft if we have the need for it. But it doesn't look like the IAF has plans for CAS aircraft. AAC gunships and UCAVS all the way.
 

Kunal Biswas

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HTT-40 turbo trainer
So, for countries like us, IMHO, it makes more sense to have a decent mix of CAS jet aircrafts (upgraded Mig 27's+Jags+Multirole's would do the job) + Turboprops (maybe, SM-27 Machete, Pilatus PC-21, Super Tucano or, even Air Tractor AT-802 ??? ).
 

Kunal Biswas

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On May 26-28, fourteen years ago, Mi-17 Helicopter units of the Indian Air Force, assaulted the enemy on the mountainous heights of the Kargil sector, namely at Tiger Hill complex and Tololing Ridge.
The Helicopter's Grim Future in Modern Combat

By Ralph Omholt
I see the utility of any CAS platform especially the helos very very less, unless you have the absolute air superiority.
So, what is important is the environment of operations.
:hmm::yey:
 
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t_co

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The main issue with helos is that too many people use them in environments to which they are ill-suited. Operating in independent pairs backed by a wide-area datalink, attack helos can wreak unmatched levels of destruction on traditional troop formations.

One US Army war game, for example, had eight Apache helicopters tasked with blocking off three 40km-long mountain roads against two whole armored battalions exploiting a hypothetical breakthrough. The Apaches had no infantry support, and their only C4ISR came from intermittent datalinks with a distant AEW aircraft. In less than three hours, the Apaches "killed" nearly twenty simulated tanks and over forty other combat and support vehicles, including the command tanks for both battalion commanders and all the long-range communications trucks. In the ensuing chaos, sizeable chunks of both battalions got lost in the mountains and what few companies emerged on the other side were easily picked off by defending infantry.

That sort of flexible defense in difficult terrain is what helos can excel at - but frontal raids to clear out entire armored divisions is not. The Iraq anecdote @Ray cited demonstrates stupidity on the part of divisional staff, not the fault of the helos themselves.
 
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Ray

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The main issue with helos is that too many people use them in environments to which they are ill-suited. Operating in independent pairs backed by a wide-area datalink, attack helos can wreak unmatched levels of destruction on traditional troop formations.

One US Army war game, for example, had eight Apache helicopters tasked with blocking off three 40km-long mountain roads against two whole armored battalions exploiting a hypothetical breakthrough. The Apaches had no infantry support, and their only C4ISR came from intermittent datalinks with a distant AEW aircraft. In less than three hours, the Apaches "killed" nearly twenty simulated tanks and over forty other combat and support vehicles, including the command tanks for both battalion commanders and all the long-range communications trucks. In the ensuing chaos, sizeable chunks of both battalions got lost in the mountains and what few companies emerged on the other side were easily picked off by defending infantry.

That sort of flexible defense in difficult terrain is what helos can excel at - but frontal raids to clear out entire armored divisions is not. The Iraq anecdote @Ray cited demonstrates stupidity on the part of divisional staff, not the fault of the helos themselves.
Those who have had practical war experience and also wargames, simulated battle would know that the real McCoy is war and not wargames/ simulated battle.

Ever heard of the Military conducting the wargame to validate their concepts in wargames and simulated battles losing?

It is also correct that one war scenario is never replicated in another either since the parameters are different and even the psychology of the opposing combatants and commanders.

Therefore, Lessons Learnt after war is very important and even those are fudged!

For example, Musharraf claims he won the Kargil War!

Therefore, it is easy for armchair Generals to condemn a failure to the 'stupidity' of the commanders.

I wonder if you heard of the adage - "Victory has a thousand fathers but defeat is an orphan"!
 
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pmaitra

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Ray

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One US Army war game, for example, had eight Apache helicopters tasked with blocking off three 40km-long mountain roads against two whole armored battalions exploiting a hypothetical breakthrough.
The manoeuvre technique to include armour's inherent safety is dispersion.on the move and quickly concentrating while in attack.

On a mountain road, armour is sitting ducks!
 

Ray

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@Kunal,

Heptrs were not successful.

One was shot down and the remainder got one PGM on target!
 
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cloud

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@Kunal, There we even had the air superiority. Also My first line was a bit off from my intention for that post (basically I was arguing against the separate CAS porp planes and included the helos as well :) ). At the end of the day we definitely need a few good numbers of CAS/multirole helos as they are needed and while the work of CAS planes can be done by any MRCA. I think the combination of higher number of Helos with good fighter support can be good. Also in future if we have adequate number of jet fighters then probably the LCA MK2 can also be converted to CAS role focused plane.
 
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Kunal Biswas

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@TrueSpirit,

HTT-40 is not cancelled, Its running, PC-7 makes 1/4 of the basic need, Its also cheaper..

============================
@Ray Sir,

The MI-17 was lost was due to lack of counter measures, Jet at high altitude with LGB are much better but Helicopter are more flexiable in such terrain due to there nature.

============================
@cloud,

Tejas 1 & 2 both are Multi-role fighters can be very useful, Net centric warfare is the future.. :)
 
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Ray

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@
============================
[MENTION=261]Ray
Sir,

The MI-17 was lost was due to lack of counter measures, Jet at high altitude with LGB are much better but Helicopter are more flexiable in such terrain due to there nature.

============================
I was there! ;)

Further, in such tight and close HAA valleys, heptrs are very problematic to control in the afternoons owing to turbulence.
 
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binayak95

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The MI-17 was lost was due to lack of counter measures, Jet at high altitude with LGB are much better but Helicopter are more flexiable in such terrain due to there nature.

We lost a MIG-27 and Mi-35 as well due Stinger MANPADS. After these incidents the AF resorted to high angle of attack tactics like WWII style dive bombing to defeat the MANPADS and successfully too.
 

Ray

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We lost a MIG-27 and Mi-35 as well due Stinger MANPADS. After these incidents the AF resorted to high angle of attack tactics like WWII style dive bombing to defeat the MANPADS and successfully too.
Where did we lose those?
 

SilentKiller

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We lost a Mig-27 and a Mig-21 on May 27th,1999. I was wrong about the Mi-35. Flt.Lieutenant Nachiketa of the Mig-27 was taken POW.
Well we did lost Mi-17 in one of the raids...
Pray for brave who gave their lives defending our frontier.

After reading almost all post, i do agree that we need to have dedicated CAS under indian Army.
and i believe good steps are being taken in this regards.

HAL LCH is great option and good to know that army has ordered 114 of these and 60 HAL rudra which can be used in roles for troops supports while transport.
but what i feel is that for the planes of rajasthan, Mi 35 in hands of IA can give our attacking troops major boast.

Airforce can keep transport helicopters (medium/heavy) but must transfer lighter helicopters baring few to army.
We will need to have a fixed wing aircraft for CAS role, either we develop new or replace it with LCA. but army don't need to have fixed wing CAS.
i would love to see most indian helicopters with door guns, they are good option, don't know if Dhruv or new MI-17 can have door or ramp guns?
 

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