Why dont Indians do more reverse engineering

[LETHALFORCE]

vladimir- i always wondered why Russia had a huge defense industry and no auto industry? you have answered this.

 

[nitesh]

mattster. akhadbharat has raised very valid points. AkhandBharat, thanks for putting the points clearly

 

[badguy2000]

First off, I'm not your "dude". Don't call me that again. I have been an engineer long enough too.

Here are my responses to your "brain growing suggestions":
Microprocessors - Microprocessors are designed in labs in United States and are manufactured in Fabs in China/Taiwan. China has no advantage there. Moreover, microprocessors by themselves don't mean jack. It is the software that runs on it that makes things run and we all know who has the upperhand in that. That is the reason why India is better at avionics than the Chinese. Next,

:blum3: guys, the design of microprocessor is different from call centers...
the high-end chips in the world are mainly produced in Japan, Taiwan and S.korea.
the mid-end/low-end chips are mainly produced in CHina.
India is not on the list.

BTW, chip/semiconductor plants are extremely expensive...chip/semiconductor-manufacturing is a extreme capital/tech-intensive industry. not every country can afford to setting up chip/semiconductor industry.

Robotics - China doesn't know the R of Robotics. Again Japan/US.

what Japanese are good at is the commercialization of Robotics.
But the best robotic is obvioulsy not in Japan.

so is the tech of machining-tool . Japanese is good at commericalization of it. but the best tech of machining-tools is in German and west europe.

Lasers - Oh? You mean laser based weapons? Still in its infancy, and again the research is very little in China.
While the use of Lasers in civilian equipment is trivial and it was invented in early 19th century, weapons based on it have not been in existence yet.

as I know, SOviet and USA did best in it in cold war.
But in the past decade, CHina has progressed much in it .
it is often reported how PLA dazzle yankee's satellites with lazer.

Automotive - Have you been inside an auto plant? I have been. And no, they cannot be "converted" overnight to produce tanks, not with today's technology (which is why I referred to particle synthesizers, again pun intended). Just look at the assembly plants today and how specialized robotics are for these plants and you will understand.

of course ,auto can be converted to tank-production not overnight,but after a while.

in fact, before USA converted fully it huge civilian industry base into arsenals, German and Japan already were to fail soon.
So, in the last half year of 1944, USA started ceasing such a convert and stop more order of weapons.

 

[badguy2000]

vladimir- i always wondered why Russia had a huge defense industry and no auto industry? you have answered this.

well, Soviet was a center-planed economy .

center-planed economy is driven not by demand,but by plans.

soviet tended to suppress the demand of peple's consumption and concentrated most resource into miliary race.

BTW, Soviet did had global 5th or 6th biggest auto industry at that time .its auto prodction was 1.5-2 million /year in 1970s-1980s, only behind USA,Japan,German and France.

 

[Vladimir79]

vladimir- i always wondered why Russia had a huge defense industry and no auto industry? you have answered this.

There is an auto industry, it is called AutoVAZ. Ever heard of the Lada? It has not been very successful due to the imports of foreign automakers. In fact, I drive a Mercedes and will not be buying one in the near future. They do not carry the luxery of German design and cannot compete with Japanese in economy. Lada is popular in CIS countries but their markets are low. We are successful in the heavy truck market with Kamaz. Europeans are buying out AutoVAZ so we will see what they can do with it. Right now they are almost in bad a shape as US automakers.

 

[AkhandBharat]

:blum3: guys, the design of microprocessor is different from call centers...
the high-end chips in the world are mainly produced in Japan, Taiwan and S.korea.
the mid-end/low-end chips are mainly produced in CHina.
India is not on the list.

Okay, not only are you a farmer or a blue-collar worker, you are a technically challenged one too!

Here's some food for your thought:

Intel's processor design in India

It's destination India for Japanese chip designers

India is up there with US and Japan developing multi-core chipsets for processing. They are fabricated in China/Taiwan.

Translation: You manufacture what US/Japan/India Designs.

BTW, chip/semiconductor plants are extremely expensive...chip/semiconductor-manufacturing is a extreme capital/tech-intensive industry. not every country can afford to setting up chip/semiconductor industry.

It is. Which is why US and Japan are outsourcing it because it has no value addition. I don't know about Japan, but US and India have military fab plants, to ensure that China doesn't cause any mischief. Its also another reason why US is protecting its investments in taiwan. India doesn't have to worry about that at all

what Japanese are good at is the commercialization of Robotics.
But the best robotic is obvioulsy not in Japan.

so is the tech of machining-tool . Japanese is good at commericalization of it. but the best tech of machining-tools is in German and west europe.

Ahh, what stupidity! Ever heard of Asimo? Japan is leaps and bounds ahead of the rest of the world in robotics and will kick your "civilian R&D"'s ass any day of the month.

as I know, SOviet and USA did best in it in cold war.
But in the past decade, CHina has progressed much in it .
it is often reported how PLA dazzle yankee's satellites with lazer.

LoL, Good for you. See, it took decades to copy that radar design, didn't it?

of course ,auto can be converted to tank-production not overnight,but after a while.

in fact, before USA converted fully it huge civilian industry base into arsenals, German and Japan already were to fail soon.
So, in the last half year of 1944, USA started ceasing such a convert and stop more order of weapons.

Read Vladimir's post. That "after a while" will take years in today's defence manufacturing. The war will be over by then.

 

[badguy2000]

Okay, not only are you a farmer or a blue-collar worker, you are a technically challenged one too!

Here's some food for your thought:

Intel's processor design in India

It's destination India for Japanese chip designers



ndia is up there with US and Japan developing multi-core chipsets for processing. They are fabricated in China/Taiwan.

Translation: You manufacture what US/Japan/India Designs.

oh,guy ,don't be so childish.
micro-soft sets up its biggest R&D center in beijing,does it prove CHina can master the code of windows? obviously not.
the core tech is still obvioulsy kept in the hands of Yankees.

So is you proud Intel India..that is just a outresouce team...

It is. Which is why US and Japan are outsourcing it because it has no value addition. I don't know about Japan, but US and India have military fab plants, to ensure that China doesn't cause any mischief. Its also another reason why US is protecting its investments in taiwan. India doesn't have to worry about that at all

guy, Before 1980s, Taiwan had no fab plants,but Yankee pledged to protect Taiwan.
After 1980s, Taiwan set up hug fabs, but Yankees retreated its armed force from Taiwan...
guy, Obama is begging Beijing to save his ass from the economy crisis,so is Taiwan.

Ahh, what stupidity! Ever heard of Asimo? Japan is leaps and bounds ahead of the rest of the world in robotics and will kick your "civilian R&D"'s ass any day of the month.

hi,guy,are you really a engineer? I doubt it.
the best robotic tech is in USA,but USA is not as wild about the applicaiton of robotic as Japanese.
I don't know much about west erupeans,but he robotic Russian and cHinese are also not bad,at least not worse than japanese. However, the robotic of Russian and CHinese are mainly applied to military industry or labs.

Read Vladimir's post. That "after a while" will take years in today's defence manufacturing. The war will be over by then.

well, in 1914, all main powers like UK, France, German, Russia and Aust-Hung thought that the WW I would be over by end of 1914.

 

[mattster]

The problem with some guys on this forum is that their patriotism and nationalism is getting the better of their head. So its difficult to have a rational debate in those circumstances. Sometimes these guys get so involved in pulling out the minutiae to make a point, and lose the bigger idea behind the thread.

If a Chinese guy says something that is true....it doesnt make it untrue because you dont like China. Its not always about India vs. China.

My point about commercial technology being applied to military applications is not just about changing factories or redesigning components....its about the knowledge base and manpower from the civilian sector that can be leveraged into other applications including military and vice-versa.

Those countries that have a weak commercial, industrial & manufacturing technological base are not going to have a strong indigenous military industrial base. They both go hand in hand. It will be an uphill battle for these countries since they will always be dependent on foreign sources for key components even if they have very good engineers. This is what Badguy was trying to say initially, and I agree with his point.

A good example of this is the Soviet Union that is steadily falling behind the US and Western countries in defense technologies despite having very good engineers.

 

[badguy2000]

There is an auto industry, it is called AutoVAZ. Ever heard of the Lada? It has not been very successful due to the imports of foreign automakers. In fact, I drive a Mercedes and will not be buying one in the near future. They do not carry the luxery of German design and cannot compete with Japanese in economy. Lada is popular in CIS countries but their markets are low. We are successful in the heavy truck market with Kamaz. Europeans are buying out AutoVAZ so we will see what they can do with it. Right now they are almost in bad a shape as US automakers.

vladimir, it is a pity that Lada and other russian auto brand declined so much....
when I am child, many Russia-style cars ran on the roads in china,but now I can see Russia-made auto only in Museums...

BTW, Russian-made heavy trucks/vechicles are crazely good..... .:blum3:

 

[AkhandBharat]

oh,guy ,don't be so childish.
micro-soft sets up its biggest R&D center in beijing,does it prove CHina can master the code of windows? obviously not.
the core tech is still obvioulsy kept in the hands of Yankees.

That does it. Clearly, you don't possess any knowledge of any kind of engineering field. Arguing with you is a moot point. You are ignored from now on.

The problem with some guys on this forum is that their patriotism and nationalism is getting the better of their head. So its difficult to have a rational debate in those circumstances. Sometimes these guys get so involved in pulling out the minutiae to make a point, and lose the bigger idea behind the thread.

If a Chinese guy says something that is true....it doesnt make it untrue because you dont like China. Its not always about India vs. China.

My point about commercial technology being applied to military applications is not just about changing factories or redesigning components....its about the knowledge base and manpower from the civilian sector that can be leveraged into other applications including military and vice-versa.

Those countries that have a weak commercial, industrial & manufacturing technological base are not going to have a strong indigenous military industrial base. They both go hand in hand. It will be an uphill battle for these countries since they will always be dependent on foreign sources for key components even if they have very good engineers. This is what Badguy was trying to say initially, and I agree with his point.

A good example of this is the Soviet Union that is steadily falling behind the US and Western countries in defense technologies despite having very good engineers.

There is no patriotism/nationalism in my posts. I criticize India's weak points equally. Ofcourse, you are ignoring them, or are not reading other threads, I post in.

Your point about knowledge base is well taken. However, Your point about having a weak commercial manufacturing base is not. US has a weak commercial manufacturing base. However, it can kick the ass of any country on this planet in less than a month because its military industrial complex is huge and still alive and kicking.

Moreover, even in the commercial industry, the highest number of patents come from the United States. India realizes this and is building up its knowledge base first. India is actively involved in all kinds of research from biomedical to genetics to microprocessors to software to pharmaceuticals. You name anything, India is collaborating with the world in that field. China has taken a different route. It steals from the world and then tries to copy/produce it. Doing that, its knowledge base will not improve at all, but it will definitely help them in their engineering projects in the short run. They will gain insights doing reverse engineering and they are good at it, no doubt, but that will not help in innovation and that reverse engineering mindset will clearly not help them in the future.

An Industrial base will help China in only one thing: getting forex reserves for its development. That development in turn will lift more people out of poverty, which will in turn, make more and more people go into technology research. That will help.

India is setting up its technical population for research and development already. India's priorities to produce more engineers/scientists and medical professionals take precedence over developing its industrial base. Because India realizes that once the patents start flowing out, money will come automatically and an industrial base can be setup over time. This is however only for commerical enterprises. India is developing its military industrial complex separately. Big power houses are being given contracts like Tata and L&T to engage in parts of secret contracts like F-INSAS and INS Arihant Nuclear Sub. All this is happening in India. The auto industry in India is exploding with every automobile manufacturer now investing heavily in India wary of the "reverse engineering" of China.

So to conclude: Knowledge base of any country is very important, but it takes a long time to turn the knowledge base of the commercial industry around to military applications. India is actively investing in it and is already getting returns. So, India is well poised.

And in case of war, the established military complex is the only thing that matters. Commercial industrial base means jack shit.

 

[F-14]

to all the naysayers here guys the amount of Tech Prujudice that India has faced is enormus and inspite of this India has achived many wepone systems the major point of attack for critics is the arjun and the tajes which is being delayed due to the fact that the services that are suppous to buy them are constantly changing QSR's and also one thing has to be taken in to account unlike many countries Defense R&D in india works on silk thin budgets and for that the DRDO has done preety well i gusse as for reverse engineering I dont thing that its is nither morally or technecial good enough

 

[Vladimir79]

well, in 1914, all main powers like UK, France, German, Russia and Aust-Hung thought that the WW I would be over by end of 1914.

Yes, and this isn't 1914. Trench warfare is obsolete with air power. Every war fought by modern armies since the 60s has been swift. US defeated Iraq twice in a matter of weeks, Afghanistan, and Serbia same story. Russia and Georgia last year didn't last a week. Even going back to the 60s and 70s wars fought by major powers were swift. Just look at all the Indo-Pak wars in that time frame... they lasted weeks instead of years. Israel and Arab wars. the only wars that last for long periods of time are those fought by armies with no real air power or fighting guerrilas. India and China both have modern enough air forces and SAMs that a war wouldn't last too long. It is only going to be a short border war in most reality.

 

[badguy2000]

Yes, and this isn't 1914. Trench warfare is obsolete with air power. Every war fought by modern armies since the 60s has been swift. US defeated Iraq twice in a matter of weeks, Afghanistan, and Serbia same story. Russia and Georgia last year didn't last a week. Even going back to the 60s and 70s wars fought by major powers were swift. Just look at all the Indo-Pak wars in that time frame... they lasted weeks instead of years. Israel and Arab wars. the only wars that last for long periods of time are those fought by armies with no real air power or fighting guerrilas. India and China both have modern enough air forces and SAMs that a war wouldn't last too long. It is only going to be a short border war in most reality.

Hilter defeated Poland ,France,Norway,Danmark,Yugosalvia,and Greece in weeks. So He also thought that He could defeated Soviets soon.
Hilter said:
"Knock of the door ,then the whole buildings of Soviet is to collapse"

As a Russian ,you should know more clearly what happened to Hilter later.

So, PLS don't take it granted that the wars in future will go on as the past examples.
Don't make the mistake of Hilter again.

 

[Vladimir79]

Why would I waste my time looking at antiquated examples of warfare? This is the 21st century. It is time to wake up to the modern age.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Yes, and this isn't 1914. Trench warfare is obsolete with air power.

Oh Vlad, as an engineer, I take strong issues with that. The Kosovo War proved that Serbian engineers are better than any American birdbrain any day of the week!

Every war fought by modern armies since the 60s has been swift.

American-Vietnam, Sino-Soviet, 1st Sino-Vietnam, 2nd Sino-Vietnam, 1st Chechen, 2nd Chechen, 1st, 2nd, 3rd Yugoslav ... I think you've been cherry picking, Sgt.

US defeated Iraq twice in a matter of weeks, Afghanistan, and Serbia same story.

I will accept your view on Afghanistan if you will accept mine that the Soviet Invasion in 1979 was on par with the American invasion of Iraq.

Russia and Georgia last year didn't last a week.

You don't count the skirmishes before?

 

[hbogyt]

I think the point Mattster is trying to put forwards is that many military subsystems are supplied by civilian firms.

 

[Vladimir79]

Oh Vlad, as an engineer, I take strong issues with that. The Kosovo War proved that Serbian engineers are better than any American birdbrain any day of the week!

Yet they lost...

American-Vietnam, Sino-Soviet, 1st Sino-Vietnam, 2nd Sino-Vietnam, 1st Chechen, 2nd Chechen, 1st, 2nd, 3rd Yugoslav ... I think you've been cherry picking, Sgt.

Note where I said except for fighting guerrilas.

I will accept your view on Afghanistan if you will accept mine that the Soviet Invasion in 1979 was on par with the American invasion of Iraq.

We only used 80,000 men to invade Afghanistan and captured all their major cities in a matter of days. It was a half-arsed measure compared to the 400,000 coalition forces used to take Iraq.

You don't count the skirmishes before?

Of course not, a couple people shooting at JPKF guards or flying UAVs is not a war.

 

[p2prada]

Civilian industry cannot support a military industrial complex. The difference in technology is too vast. In today's world, a manufacturing facility will come up faster than a converting a civilian industry to military standards.

But, there is one place the civilian industry can help.....support. Civi industries can build tents, ropes, food products and a billion other products that will help keep a soldier alive. Even in manufacturing, if you have BEML building armored trucks, you can have Mahindra & Mahindra deliver windshield wipers and seats etc etc.

 

[Vladimir79]

don't draw conclusion in such a hurry!...

one is ore-transporting truck,the other is missle-transporting vehicle. can you tell me how different they are??:2guns:

Can't view your photos but the difference b/w logistics vehicles is not the point. It is not a combat machine.

 

[Martian]

Getting back to the subject of reverse engineering, I think there are three key factors to being successful. First, you need lots of money, time, and geniuses to study and determine how a piece of advanced technology works.

For example, according to Wikipedia, China reverse engineered an U.S. Mark 48 torpedo (see Yu-6 torpedo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). However, it required ten years and 18 patents. Here's an excerpt:

"Over two-thirds of the technologies used for Yu-6 torpedo were new to the Chinese, and there were some serious doubts that China could complete the project on its own. Mr. Dong Chunpeng (董春鹏), a University of Science & Technology of China graduate in 1966 who then worked for 705th Institute since was determined to succeed, which he did after developing 18 patents including four in fields that China had never had any experience. After ten years of development, Yu-6 torpedo was finally accepted into service in 2005, and for the success, Mr. Dong Chunpeng (董春鹏) was awarded the 2006 Scientific and Technological Advancement Award at the end of February in Beijing."

In my opinion, India has plenty of talented scientists and engineers. Therefore, I think that India does not perform more reverse engineering due to a lack of commitment, focus, or money. Just my two cents. And, by the way, congratulations to Mr. Dong Chunpeng. It's scary that some people are like ten times smarter than I am.