Why dont Indians do more reverse engineering

badguy2000

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I don't know why you keep harping about civilian industries when it comes to defense industries (may be because China has biggest civilian industrial base). Can your civilian industries make Tanks, engines, Air crafts, submarines, missiles etc. Answer is a big No.

You need special defense and military industries/organizations to make military hardware with some support from civilian industry.

Answer this, since China has the biggest civilian industrial base in the world why can't it make a state-of-the-art engine till now despite reverse engineering :wink:. Don't bring your contorted logic here.
I 'harpy about it",just because many indians here seem not to have realized it.

defence industry can not be isolated from civilian industry completely.

during war time, civilian industry, especially heavy industry section ,can be easily converted to defence industry.

in fact, once mobilized, Toyata can produce more tanks than anyone else.
 

Daredevil

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I 'harpy about it",just because many indians here seem not to have realized it.

defence industry can not be isolated from civilian industry completely.

during war time, civilian industry, especially heavy industry section ,can be easily converted to defence industry.

in fact, once mobilized, Toyata can produce more tanks than anyone else.
Most juvenile and idiotic statements I have read on this forum. You need tank specific infrastructure to make tanks, Toyota cannot make tanks without that infrastructure nor can anyone in China. Please don't come here to show your ignorance.:bye:
 

badguy2000

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Most juvenile and idiotic statements I have read on this forum. You need tank specific infrastructure to make tanks, Toyota cannot make tanks without that infrastructure nor can anyone in China. Please don't come here to show your ignorance.:bye:
in fact, Ford and GM produce more tanks than UK in WW II.
 
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Daredevil

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in fact, Ford and GM produce more tanks than UK in WW II.
That was the early times in modern warfare when there were no separate defense industries to make military products. Times have changed, now they have special defense industries and assembly lines to just manufacture military products, nothing else. Now you don't need a Ford or GM to do that job.

You are living in a time warp. Come out of it, other wise you will be left behind.
 
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One point no one has made is the reversed engineered product usually has to be made in greater quantity than the original due to lower quality, the quantity has to make up for the poor quality.
 

Yusuf

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A product is reversed engineered just for that LF. To make it cheap and in numbers. Anything that comes cheap is usually in large numbers.
 
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most reversed engineered products claimed to be copies but they are not real copies
the j-10 is an F-16(lavi) copy in it's claim but it dosen't have the f-16 engine or f-16 radar maybe the frame design is about the only thing that it may have in common, but to advertise it as a copy of f-16 is just a marketing gimmick when in reality it has almost none of the main components in common with a f-16.
 

badguy2000

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most reversed engineered products claimed to be copies but they are not real copies
the j-10 is an F-16(lavi) copy in it's claim but it dosen't have the f-16 engine or f-16 radar maybe the frame design is about the only thing that it may have in common, but to advertise it as a copy of f-16 is just a marketing gimmick when in reality it has almost none of the main components in common with a f-16.
pls ,then why does F16 have not cannard as J10? why J10 is considerable bigger than F16?
 

mattster

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I don't know why you keep harping about civilian industries when it comes to defense industries (may be because China has biggest civilian industrial base). Can your civilian industries make Tanks, engines, Air crafts, submarines, missiles etc. Answer is a big No.

You need special defense and military industries/organizations to make military hardware with some support from civilian industry.

Answer this, since China has the biggest civilian industrial base in the world why can't it make a state-of-the-art engine till now despite reverse engineering :wink:. Don't bring your contorted logic here.
You are missing Badguy's point. His point is very valid. You need a high-tech civilian base to supply your main private defense vendors.

For instance, almost all the electronic components from simple passives like capacitors to sophisticated digital signal processors are not made by Boeing or Lockheed or Hughes - they are made by some the major semiconductor manufacturers like TI and Intel and so on. For defence purposes they may create versions of these parts that are "radiation hardened " etc, but basically, its the same technology used in their commercial products.

The same argument applies to mechanical parts are other technologies. Its a lot easier to convert a commercial technology to military application than to start from scratch.

This is a very valid point. If India creates a stronger private manufacturing base and R&D, then it will really help the guys in defense labs because they can sub-contract the work to outside firms and dont have to design every dinky speciality component themselves.

I think India is finally starting to do that by opening up defense production to private firms. But again the question here is: Why did it take so long to figure this out ??

Anyone who does a study of the US military industrial complex can see that almost every major defense firm is a publicly listed company and not government run.
 

badguy2000

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You are missing Badguy's point. His point is very valid. You need a high-tech civilian base to supply your main private defense vendors.

For instance, almost all the electronic components from simple passives like capacitors to sophisticated digital signal processors are not made by Boeing or Lockheed or Hughes - they are made by some the major semiconductor manufacturers like TI and Intel and so on. For defence purposes they may create versions of these parts that are "radiation hardened " etc, but basically, its the same technology used in their commercial products.

The same argument applies to mechanical parts are other technologies. Its a lot easier to convert a commercial technology to military application than to start from scratch.

This is a very valid point. If India creates a stronger private manufacturing base and R&D, then it will really help the guys in defense labs because they can sub-contract the work to outside firms and dont have to design every dinky speciality component themselves.

I think India is finally starting to do that by opening up defense production to private firms. But again the question here is: Why did it take so long to figure this out ??

Anyone who does a study of the US military industrial complex can see that almost every major defense firm is a publicly listed company and not government run.
agree .except that "private manufacturing and R&D" should be amended as "civilian manufacturing and R&D".
 

Daredevil

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You are missing Badguy's point. His point is very valid. You need a high-tech civilian base to supply your main private defense vendors.

For instance, almost all the electronic components from simple passives like capacitors to sophisticated digital signal processors are not made by Boeing or Lockheed or Hughes - they are made by some the major semiconductor manufacturers like TI and Intel and so on. For defence purposes they may create versions of these parts that are "radiation hardened " etc, but basically, its the same technology used in their commercial products.

The same argument applies to mechanical parts are other technologies. Its a lot easier to convert a commercial technology to military application than to start from scratch.

This is a very valid point. If India creates a stronger private manufacturing base and R&D, then it will really help the guys in defense labs because they can sub-contract the work to outside firms and dont have to design every dinky speciality component themselves.

I think India is finally starting to do that by opening up defense production to private firms. But again the question here is: Why did it take so long to figure this out ??

Anyone who does a study of the US military industrial complex can see that almost every major defense firm is a publicly listed company and not government run.
If that was his point then I would have happily agreed with him. But his point is something different and subtle. He wanted to show that China has the best civilian industry base compared to India and that China can manufacture tanks and other military products during war time in a jiffy while India is incapable of doing because we don't have strong industrial base. Read this statement of badguy

during war time, civilian industry, especially heavy industry section ,can be easily converted to defence industry.

in fact, once mobilized, Toyata can produce more tanks than anyone else.
It is clear from this what Badguy meant which is different from what you say in your post here.
 

AkhandBharat

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agree .except that "private manufacturing and R&D" should be amended as "civilian manufacturing and R&D".
Wow, this statement is stupid on so many levels. Are you a farmer or something?

Civilian manufacturing and R&D will never be the same as military manufacturing and R&D, except in your wonderland. You cannot change assembly lines magically overnight to produce guns instead of toys and ipods, not until the star trek "particle synthesizers" become a reality. If it were, your country would not have been the world's industrial slave.
 

mattster

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Wow, this statement is stupid on so many levels. Are you a farmer or something?

Civilian manufacturing and R&D will never be the same as military manufacturing and R&D, except in your wonderland. You cannot change assembly lines magically overnight to produce guns instead of toys and ipods, not until the star trek "particle synthesizers" become a reality. If it were, your country would not have been the world's industrial slave.
Dude...you are the one who needs to grow a brain here. He Badguy, was refering to commercial off-the-shelf technology & R&D done by companies selling commercial/industrial products. Just because his english is not very good....does not mean that he is wrong.

We are not talking about toys - we are talking about microprocessors, fpga's, dsp, semiconductors, lasers, robotics, automotive, image processing, rf technology, even commercial aviation & avionics.

There is a tremendous overlap between commercial and military technology and the overlap is getting bigger by the day. I have been an engineer long enough to see many applications migrate from commercial to military applications.

In many cases now, commercial products are even more high-tech than military products !!!
 

AkhandBharat

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Dude...you are the one who needs to grow a brain here. Here was refering to commercial off-the-shelf technology & R&D done by companies selling commercial/industrial products. Just because his english is not very good....does not mean that he is wrong.

We are not talking about toys - we are talking about microprocessors, fpga's, semiconductors, lasers, robotics, automotive, image processing, rf technology, even commercial aviation & avionics.

There is a tremendous overlap between commercial and military technology and the overlap is getting bigger. I have been an engineer long enough to see many applications migrate from commercial to military applications.

In many cases now, commercial products are even more high-tech than military products !!!
First off, I'm not your "dude". Don't call me that again. I have been an engineer long enough too.

Here are my responses to your "brain growing suggestions":
Microprocessors - Microprocessors are designed in labs in United States and are manufactured in Fabs in China/Taiwan. China has no advantage there. Moreover, microprocessors by themselves don't mean jack. It is the software that runs on it that makes things run and we all know who has the upperhand in that. That is the reason why India is better at avionics than the Chinese. Next,

Robotics - China doesn't know the R of Robotics. Again Japan/US.

Lasers - Oh? You mean laser based weapons? Still in its infancy, and again the research is very little in China.

While the use of Lasers in civilian equipment is trivial and it was invented in early 19th century, weapons based on it have not been in existence yet.

Automotive - Have you been inside an auto plant? I have been. And no, they cannot be "converted" overnight to produce tanks, not with today's technology (which is why I referred to particle synthesizers, again pun intended). Just look at the assembly plants today and how specialized robotics are for these plants and you will understand.

If you think they can, I laugh at your engineering skills.

RF - Radio waves were discovered in the late 18th century and the radar technology for weapons was perfected just before the second world war. Civilian technology just doesn't magically convert into military use. Cut the crap already.
 

mattster

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First off, I'm not your "dude". Don't call me that again. I have been an engineer long enough too.

Here are my responses to your "brain growing suggestions":
Microprocessors - Microprocessors are designed in labs in United States and are manufactured in Fabs in China/Taiwan. China has no advantage there.

Robotics - China doesn't know the R of Robotics. Again Japan/US.

Lasers - Oh? You mean laser based weapons? Still in its infancy, and again the research is very little in China.

While the use of Lasers in civilian equipment is trivial and it was invented in early 19th century, weapons based on it have not been in existence yet.

Automotive, Have you been inside an auto plant? I have been. And no, they cannot be "converted" overnight to produce tanks, not with today's technology (which is why I referred to particle synthesizers, again pun intended). Just look at the assembly plants today and how speacialized robotics are for these plants and you will understand.

If you think they can, I laugh at your engineering skills.


Yo.......This is general point. We are not talking about China alone here. We are talking about the migration of commercial technology to military applications. That's the point.

Nobody is talking about converting toy/car factories into military factories.

The "Big picture" issue is that there is tremendous overlap between commercial R&D and military applications. Badguy's point was simply that if you do not have the commercial R&D infrastructure...it will impact your military capabilities. This is why the Russians are so far behind the Americans and Europeans in electronics and avionics.

As an example - if the japanese wanted to design an LCA - they could have probably done it in half the time it took India, because their commercial and industrial & semiconductor/materials technology is so advanced.

BTW: being in Silicon valley...your comment about all semiconductors being made in Taiwan is not true. Between IBM and Intel and TI alone - they probably have more than 10 - 15 fabs right here in the US. and thats not counting and all the small analog fabs.

Yes...there are many companies here that are moving to a fab-lite strategy and outsourcing the manufacturing to Taiwan, but there is still a sizable semicon industry here.
 

AkhandBharat

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Yo.......This is general point. We are not talking about China alone here. We are talking about the migration of commercial technology to military applications. That's the point.

Nobody is talking about converting toy/car factories into military factories.

The "Big picture" issue is that there is tremendous overlap between commercial R&D and military applications. Badguy's point was simply that if you do not have the commercial R&D infrastructure...it will impact your military capabilities. This is why the Russians are so far behind the Americans and Europeans in electronics and avionics.

BTW: being in Silicon valley...your comment about all semiconductors being made in Taiwan is not true. Between IBM and Intel and TI alone - they probably have more than 10 - 15 fabs right here in the US. and thats not counting and all the small analog fabs.

Yes...there are many companies here that are moving to a fab-lite strategy and outsourcing the manufacturing to Taiwan, but there is still a sizable semicon industry here.
You digress. What makes avionics? Do microprocessors magically control an aircraft's systems? Why did the Russians take Indian help in avionics?

British Hawks to get Indian Avionics

Most fabrication work is done in Taiwan/China. I work in SoCAL too, and my company Qualcomm figured out a long time ago, that there is no need to retain its fab and outsourced it to the east. Having a fabrication plant doesn't mean a country automagically knows and can improve on the current design or modify it for military purposes. So, an industrial base has no advantage there.

What makes you say that India lacks commercial R&D?

Civilian technologies are used for military applications but the R&D base is more India than in China. Microsoft, Intel have designed their latest products in Bangalore while only the fabrication is done in China.
From Intel Inside To India Inside

So, I would argue that India has the advantage there. But I am not, since it takes a lot of time to convert civilian technology for military use.

As an example - if the japanese wanted to design an LCA - they could have probably done it in half the time it took India, because their commercial and industrial & semiconductor/materials technology is so advanced. .
They haven't. The Japanese haven't designed an LCA or ANY CA for that matter after WW2. Even now, they are aware of the chinese threat, but they are not magically designing F-22 Raptors or any futuristic MBT for that matter, just because it is not simple and civilian industry base cannot be converted for military use that easily. PERIOD
 

Vladimir79

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during war time, civilian industry, especially heavy industry section ,can be easily converted to defence industry.

in fact, once mobilized, Toyata can produce more tanks than anyone else.
Maybe during the years of WWII, not today. The components of modern military equipment are far too complex and costly to convert an automobile plant into a tank factory. It would be cheaper and easier just to build a whole new facility. It might work if you want to build armoured cars but you won't win a war with those.
 

Vladimir79

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Dude...you are the one who needs to grow a brain here. He Badguy, was refering to commercial off-the-shelf technology & R&D done by companies selling commercial/industrial products. Just because his english is not very good....does not mean that he is wrong.

We are not talking about toys - we are talking about microprocessors, fpga's, dsp, semiconductors, lasers, robotics, automotive, image processing, rf technology, even commercial aviation & avionics.

There is a tremendous overlap between commercial and military technology and the overlap is getting bigger by the day. I have been an engineer long enough to see many applications migrate from commercial to military applications.

In many cases now, commercial products are even more high-tech than military products !!!
His example of turning an auto factory into a tank factory was pretty clear. There are not many OTS commercial components in the production of modern tanks or any other serious hardware. Most relative commercial technologies have been adapted for military use, which took alot of refinement by the defence industry. It is not plug and play which means new components would have to be manufactured. It would require the readjusting of the commercial sector and would be a huge undertaking. As fast as modern wars are today, the conflict would be over by the time you got it off the ground.
 

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