Why does DRDO fail? A critical review

[no smoking]

And a babu-infested government organizations in India cannot get anything right, let alone complex project management.

I would rather call them-no experience than babu!

All sectors in India where there is world-class service and standards, are open to private industry. Those that are still under government monopoly are rotting, eating up tax money.

All sectors in india where there is world-class standards are being benefited from overseas returned indian scentists or manager. These people worked in US, european companies as manager or even CEO. They know how to develop a new products. They can use their experience to push the whole industry forward!

In military industry, that is another story! It is more sensitive and more complicated! How many indians have hands-on experience of organizing weapon developing project in USA or British? I belive very few. How many of them could get chance to work for india? Probaly none! So, basically, your institution is full of experts, professors but no project manager!

 

[pmaitra]

And a babu-infested government organizations in India cannot get anything right, let alone complex project management.

I would rather call them-no experience than babu!

All sectors in India where there is world-class service and standards, are open to private industry. Those that are still under government monopoly are rotting, eating up tax money.

All sectors in india where there is world-class standards are being benefited from overseas returned indian scentists or manager. These people worked in US, european companies as manager or even CEO. They know how to develop a new products. They can use their experience to push the whole industry forward!

In military industry, that is another story! It is more sensitive and more complicated! How many indians have hands-on experience of organizing weapon developing project in USA or British? I belive very few. How many of them could get chance to work for india? Probaly none! So, basically, your institution is full of experts, professors but no project manager!

No Smoking has made a good point, and while I don't know how much of it is relevant in India's case, it is true that it is easy to get experience from abroad in a civilian technology than in a defence or military technology.

I also disagree with Bangalorean's gross generalization. The Indian Government controlled locomotive manufacturers are actually doing a pretty good job, and I daresay, even Tata, who used to make locomotives (TELCO - Tata Engineering and Locomotive Company), would, today, struggle to catch up to DLW or CLW.

 

[Bangalorean]

No Smoking has made a good point, and while I don't know how much of it is relevant in India's case, it is true that it is easy to get experience from abroad in a civilian technology than in a defence or military technology.

I also disagree with Bangalorean's gross generalization. The Indian Government controlled locomotive manufacturers are actually doing a pretty good job, and I daresay, even Tata, who used to make locomotives (TELCO - Tata Engineering and Locomotive Company), would, today, struggle to catch up to DLW or CLW.

Exceptions do not make the norm. There are hundreds and hundreds of PSUs in India. How many of them are worth the money we spend on them? They gobble a huge share of the economy, and they are most inefficient and sluggish. You can point out a few examples here and there, but the vast majority are a drain on us.

If the same thing happens to a private company, natural forces will take care of things. The company will dissolve itself, and its assets and people will be taken over by the competition. As long as there is a market (Indian armed forces), there will be more than one company in the business. The PSUs like DRDO are propped up, whether they deliver or not, whether they are substandard or not... money is drained out into propping them, for no good use.

 

[pmaitra]

Exceptions do not make the norm. There are hundreds and hundreds of PSUs in India. How many of them are worth the money we spend on them? They gobble a huge share of the economy, and they are most inefficient and sluggish. You can point out a few examples here and there, but the vast majority are a drain on us.

If the same thing happens to a private company, natural forces will take care of things. The company will dissolve itself, and its assets and people will be taken over by the competition. As long as there is a market (Indian armed forces), there will be more than one company in the business. The PSUs like DRDO are propped up, whether they deliver or not, whether they are substandard or not... money is drained out into propping them, for no good use.

My objection was to your gross generalization and my objective was to get you away from that. Now you have said vast majority. My objective is attained. That's all.

One more anecdote: Catering services in the Indian Railways were much better before they were privatized.

 

[Bangalorean]

I would rather call them-no experience than babu!



All sectors in india where there is world-class standards are being benefited from overseas returned indian scentists or manager. These people worked in US, european companies as manager or even CEO. They know how to develop a new products. They can use their experience to push the whole industry forward!

In military industry, that is another story! It is more sensitive and more complicated! How many indians have hands-on experience of organizing weapon developing project in USA or British? I belive very few. How many of them could get chance to work for india? Probaly none! So, basically, your institution is full of experts, professors but no project manager!

It is not that straightforward. Let me tell you a story.

There were a lot of scientists and PhD holders who worked at the Indian Institute of Science in Bangalore. They used to have almost no workload, they used to reach office at 10 in the morning and leave by 5, I.I.Sc did not come up with any new innovation/invention for decades, because they have no incentive to. Now, one fine day GE (General Electric) opened a massive research center in Bangalore, called JFWTC (John.F.Welch Technology Center). And they began recruiting scientists from all these public sector places like I.I.Sc. Now, the same scientists work 13 hours a day, and have come up with several bleeding edge innovations in several fields.

Tell me, why does that happen? How does that work? The same people work in such different ways!

And "military design" is not monolithic, there are several million small things involved there. Let me tell you a hypothetical story.

One small part of military technology development may involve development of code in C++ in embedded systems. Now, we have a person with 7 years experience in this field, who works in one of the numerous multinational companies in Bangalore who do this kind of work like Samsung or Honeywell. Do you think DRDO will ever be able to recruit him? Will this man quit his current job and go for a much lower salary to a babu-infested place with no job satisfaction?

Another part of "military design" will involve project management and execution. Will these people be able to attract good people with generic project management skills? Will they be able to recruit them and retain them?

I am telling you - by its very nature, PSUs can never compete with the best in the world. No way we are ever going to progress as long as you leave things to PSUs. It is not in their nature.

 

[Bangalorean]

My objection was to your gross generalization and my objective was to get you away from that. Now you have said vast majority. My objective is attained. That's all.

One more anecdote: Catering services in the Indian Railways were much better before they were privatized.

Your anecdote does not prove a point against privatization because, had IR been a private entity that listened to its customers and exposed to competition, the IR management would have kicked out the caterer long back. A corrupt babu overseeing things in this government dinosaur is what causes problems like this bad catering.

 

[pmaitra]

Your anecdote does not prove a point against privatization because, had IR been a private entity that listened to its customers and exposed to competition, the IR management would have kicked out the caterer long back. A corrupt babu overseeing things in this government dinosaur is what causes problems like this bad catering.

Of course it does. Privatization of the catering services has been an abysmal failure. Now I have more to offer. Maintenance of bridges is become a matter of concern, because private companies cheat on the kind of materials they use, thickness of paint they apply, amount of rust removal they undertake. You talk about corrupt babus, how about you talk about corrupt private companies as well?

The problem is not with government or private control. The problem is with corruption, and it exists everywhere.

It is high time, at least for the Railways, that they kicked out these private companies that bribe officials to win tenders and then do a shoddy job. The sheen of privatization has already worn off my eyes. With time, you will see the light as well.

Now coming back to DRDO, do you think if DRDO is privatized, it will do any better? My bet is it won't. It will still outsource smaller sub-systems to private companies, give out tenders, etc., and these companies will bribe the private babus, win the tender, and deliver shoddy products.

Tell me if you have a solution.

 

[Bangalorean]

Of course it does. Privatization of the catering services has been an abysmal failure. Now I have more to offer. Maintenance of bridges is become a matter of concern, because private companies cheat on the kind of materials they use, thickness of paint they apply, amount of rust removal they undertake. You talk about corrupt babus, how about you talk about corrupt private companies as well?

The problem is not with government or private control. The problem is with corruption, and it exists everywhere.

It is high time, at least for the Railways, that they kicked out these private companies that bribe officials to win tenders and then do a shoddy job. The sheen of privatization has already worn off my eyes. With time, you will see the light as well.

Now coming back to DRDO, do you think if DRDO is privatized, it will do any better? My bet is it won't. It will still outsource smaller sub-systems to private companies, give out tenders, etc., and these companies will bribe the private babus, win the tender, and deliver shoddy products.

Tell me if you have a solution.

You are completely missing the point. Of course it is all about overall private or government control. The overall control is in the hands of babus, that is why things will never improve.

It is useless to talk in generic terms and say, "oh, it is all corruption, everywhere". Of course private companies will try to cut corners and minimize costs if they are given a free hand. That is not the point here. The point is about who exerts overall control.

A private company exposed to competition would have kicked out the caterer long back due to negative feedback from the customers. Do you agree with this or not? It is very simple - the first rules of business. It is so silly to blame "private companies" in general. Why is the quality of food still bad? It is because the babus will not listen to their customer, they have no need to, no incentive to. You are trying to make a point that "private companies also do bad things, so privatization is also bad". You need to think about the overall process. I can bet you, the same catering company will provide a dozen times better service if a private company were to engage them for something.

Don't privatize DRDO, let other private players come in and do everything that DRDO is doing. The armed forces (the customer) will choose from the best of the alternatives provided to them. If DRDO can survive there and become something like SBI in the midst of ICICI, Citibank, etc., then DRDO will continue to exist. If it cannot, it will die out. In both cases the country wins.

 

[venkat]

^^^ let private companies join hands with semiconductor manufacturing giants in Europe and USA and fabricate semiconductors needed by our space and defence industry.since this will not be profitable to sustain as the defence and space segment is small ,govt can extend subsidies in terms of duty cuts,tax free facilities...alas !!!
Our pvt industry is more interested in making mega quick bucks through land grabbings and real estate business,massive 3G scams coal-gate scams...etc...ofcourse TATAs and L&T are an exception!!!!

 

[pmaitra]

^^

Our friend Bangalorean is hung up on the myth that private companies are paragons of virtue. I wonder why he remains oblivious of all these scams involving private companies, some of which you have mentioned.

 

[pmaitra]

A private company exposed to competition would have kicked out the caterer long back due to negative feedback from the customers.

Drivel. Indian Railways' locomotive companies are a great example and punches a hole in your argument. Secondly, even Soviet aircraft manufacturers, all government controlled, competed against each other, and produced fine products.

Do you agree with this or not? It is very simple - the first rules of business.

No.

It is so silly to blame "private companies" in general.

It is sillier to revel in the myth that "privatization will solve all problems."

Why is the quality of food still bad?

Who said it is still bad? It is worse than before. When you say still bad, you are trying to establish a premise that the condition of food has remained the same, before and after privatization. That is not the case at all. Good try though.

It is because the babus will not listen to their customer, they have no need to, no incentive to.

Even private insurance companies refused to pay for damages to cars after the Mumbai floods. But hey, they are babus in private companies, and free from scrutiny.

You are trying to make a point that "private companies also do bad things, so privatization is also bad".

"private companies also do bad things" - Yes.
"so privatization is also bad" - You made this up.
"privatization will not solve problems of corruption" - This is what I said, and this is not the same thing as saying "privatization is bad."

You need to think about the overall process.

I wonder whether you even understand the overall process.

I can bet you, the same catering company will provide a dozen times better service if a private company were to engage them for something.

Drivel. There are no private companies competing with DLW and CLW, yet they are making locomotives just about the quality of European locomotives, with foreign collaboration. Now, even Tata is collaborating with foreign companies, yet there is a wide gap between the quality of Tata cars and European cars. Care to explain why?

Don't privatize DRDO, let other private players come in and do everything that DRDO is doing.

Ok, I agree with that.

The armed forces (the customer) will choose from the best of the alternatives provided to them. If DRDO can survive there and become something like SBI in the midst of ICICI, Citibank, etc., then DRDO will continue to exist. If it cannot, it will die out. In both cases the country wins.

Fair enough.

 

[nimo_cn]

Simple answer: no government organization can ever be expected to provide world class stuff on its own. Sometimes, when exposed to competition, they might provide good service or products, but even that will not be best-in-class.

Things like "entrenched bureaucracy, cronyism, lack of accountability, politicization" and all that are just details. Cut to the point - a babu-infested sarkari organization cannot do anything worthwhile. Even if they do something worthwhile it will never be world-class. Simple.

As long the private sector does not enter this field, we need not expect anything good or cutting edge. At the very least, the private sector will at least reverse-engineer or create clones of some basic things to begin with.

Privatization isn't a cure for every disease, on the contrary it brings more troubles in many cases.

And trust me, defence industry is the last sector you want to privatize, once you have done that, the whole defence industry of India is gonna collapse.

 

[Armand2REP]

The OP is exactly what I have been saying for years. Scratch DODO and replace it with private firms that compete for government projects. That is how Western countries do it. Only strategic weapons should be under government alphabet soup.

 

[pmaitra]

The OP is exactly what I have been saying for years. Scratch DODO and replace it with private firms that compete for government projects. That is how Western countries do it. Only strategic weapons should be under government alphabet soup.

I searched for "Scratch DODO" and this is what I found.

Pokemon Spriting: Scratch dodo bird. - YouTube

Armand2REP, we are talking about weapons systems here, not Pokemon.

 

[Ray]

DRDO is a standing joke!

Check the money wasted and the products successful.

One should not compare Russia or China Weapons Developing organisations as successful govt organisation.

They have done well because there is what is called the Gulag!

Have it in India, and DRDO will deliver.

 

[p2prada]

Privatization won't solve everything. The only way out for DRDO due to the compressed timescales is JVs with foreign manufacturers. This is the cheapest and fastest way to deliver along with near guaranteed results. Private companies will push Indian defence industry back by many decades, let them learn the nuances of the trade first.

JVs with Israel is the best bet because of their small military requirement. The Israelis will always deliver the best that they make because their companies can do it, but their military cannot afford it. An example is the Phalcons. Since IsAF cannot really afford it, there really isn't much point in their govt withholding the technology. They can always have India funding their programs along with DRDO and delivering the best they can within an acceptable timeframe. That way they have the money for research, there is somebody to buy said research(Indian armed forces) and Israel can keep up with the west in technology even if their own military is not as advanced.

Apart from that DRDO needs to make changes in their HR policy and increase manpower quality right from the higher management to the lowest levels. Decision making and keeping to schedule should be the mantra. Not promise the moon and deliver after the moon's been dead since a decade. Without accountability it does not matter if it is a govt company or a private company.

 

[Ray]

Privatization won't solve everything. The only way out for DRDO due to the compressed timescales is JVs with foreign manufacturers. This is the cheapest and fastest way to deliver along with near guaranteed results. Private companies will push Indian defence industry back by many decades, let them learn the nuances of the trade first.

JVs with Israel is the best bet because of their small military requirement. The Israelis will always deliver the best that they make because their companies can do it, but their military cannot afford it. An example is the Phalcons. Since IsAF cannot really afford it, there really isn't much point in their govt withholding the technology. They can always have India funding their programs along with DRDO and delivering the best they can within an acceptable timeframe. That way they have the money for research, there is somebody to buy said research(Indian armed forces) and Israel can keep up with the west in technology even if their own military is not as advanced.

Apart from that DRDO needs to make changes in their HR policy and increase manpower quality right from the higher management to the lowest levels. Decision making and keeping to schedule should be the mantra. Not promise the moon and deliver after the moon's been dead since a decade. Without accountability it does not matter if it is a govt company or a private company.

There is no compressed timeframes.

The claim those timeframe so that they can get the development rights and the money to feed their fantasies.

And then starts more fudging, overruns and extended timeframes leaving the defence requirement caught between the Devil and the Deep Sea.

All realise that unless we produce our own weaponry we are at the mercy of the supplier, to include shameful control by them on its use or be beleaguered by sanctions etc.

The defence forces are not there to be hamstrung and not all are interested in lobbying for foreign goods.

If that were so, then INSAS would have never been accepted not the 105 IFG or the Gurdial Gun.

It is also overdoing that the private sector can work miracles.

All one wants is Action and not gas!

That too, Laughing Gas!

 

[p2prada]

There is no compressed timeframes.

The claim those timeframe so that they can get the development rights and the money to feed their fantasies.

And then starts more fudging, overruns and extended timeframes leaving the defence requirement caught between the Devil and the Deep Sea.

I wasn't referring to the time it takes for a project to start and finish. I was talking about the huge jump in technology we need to make in order to keep up with the west.

For eg: We have zero capability in making a wide body aircraft. If we start one on our own and expect to build one at the level of a modern Airbus or Boeing it is impossible. So, we take the easier option of starting a JV with Ilyushin for a wide body aircraft in order to deliver a modern aircraft without struggling with the things you mentioned and at the same time we get to keep up with the west too. Therefore we compress the timeframe without having to undergo a protracted development time based on inferior technology.

Apart from that it has always been as you said.

The stuff being made by DRDO is not up to modern standards and by the time it comes, it is mostly obsolete. When it comes to this forum, there is a widespread notion that the technologies being delivered by DRDO is "very advanced."

 

[venkat]

DRDO is a standing joke!

Check the money wasted and the products successful.

One should not compare Russia or China Weapons Developing organisations as successful govt organisation.

They have done well because there is what is called the Gulag!

Have it in India, and DRDO will deliver.

ppl are getting away with blatant rapes and billion crore scams. first send them to gulag sir!!!! if you can !!!

 

[Bangalorean]

A little tired now, will reply later. My general point is that all the fine stuff that is being suggested on this page - better HR practices, good decision making, etc. is just not possible in DRDO. They will never be able to do it, they never will do it.