Why did Russia approve RD 93 engine sale for Pakistan's JF 17?

Discussion in 'Europe and Russia' started by Quickgun Murugan, Oct 7, 2009.

  1. Quickgun Murugan

    Quickgun Murugan Regular Member

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    Russian initially blocked its sale of Kilmov RD-93 engine for JF 17 thunder saying the following as quoted by Colonel-General Anatoly Mazurkevich:

    "We've denied China the right to supply its JF-17 fighter aircraft powered by Russian RD-93 engines to third countries, asking it to sign an end-user certificate for the engines,"


    Speaking to Indian and Russian journalists ahead of a visit to India by Russia's Deputy Prime Minister and Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov on January 22,2007 Col.-Gen. Mazurkevich confirmed that India and Russia are shortly to sign accords to jointly develop and produce a 5th generation fighter plane and a multi-role transport aircraft.


    Later on President Vladimir Putin personally supervised the deal and inked sanctioning documents, representatives of president’s administration specified. The deal was backed up by all parties concerned – Defense Ministry, Federal Industry Agency and Rosoboron export, which is the state exporter of weapons.

    Now, I can understand that the deal was pure business on Russia's part, but why did'nt they care about the Indian Lobby's protest? Why irk India, when it is one of the principal buyers of Russian defence equipments at the expense of potential sale of 1000 RD-93 engines for Chinese export? Its simply not good business when they are many countries vying to get a piece of Indian defence contracts!!



    P.S: I am not sure if this topic has been discussed earlier, so tried using forums search engine and nothing showed up.
     
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  3. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    I think the Russians believed that they had enough Market Power to sell RD 93 engines for Pakistan's JF 17 over Indian objections.

    "Market power gives firms the ability to engage in unilateral anti-competitive behavior. Some of the behaviours that firms with market power are accused of engaging in include predatory pricing," See Market power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The Russians believe that Indians are too reliant on Russia for its military weaponry. Therefore, it is unnecessary to pass up the opportunity to make hundreds of millions of dollars. Regarding "predatory pricing," do the constant price increases for the Admiral Gorshkov sound familiar?
     
  4. Quickgun Murugan

    Quickgun Murugan Regular Member

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    I do agree that Russians have the Market power. But my question is why irk India(a $30 billion pa budget industry) for a RD-93 sale to pakistan( <3 billion industry)? It just does not make any Business sense.
     
  5. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    The Russians believe that the Indians will protest, but will not take any significant action in retaliation. I would say that events so far have proven that the Russians were right. If there is no Indian boycott, would you pass up hundreds of millions of dollars in sales?

    I actually thought that you would have been more angry about the flexing of market power concerning the Admiral Gorshkov. India and Russia had a signed contract. The Russians made excuses and unilaterally increased the cost to India by billion(s) of dollars. Now that's outrageous use of market power. With the extra billion(s) of dollars, I could've irrigated every Indian farm with that money.
     
  6. Vladimir79

    Vladimir79 Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    There is only one reason and it has been stated many times... JF-17 is a "third generation fighter" and is no competition to Russian sales or Indian interest.
     
  7. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    many other side deals were part of gorshokov that are not mentioned, the price of the carrier included many of these deals.
     
  8. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    No matter how you try to interpret it, facts don't change. Russia extracted (am I allowed to say extorted?) almost 1 billion dollars or more from India. It ain't right. How many of my Indian friends think that the extra billion dollars should have gone to irrigating Indian farms instead of rich Russian pockets?

    "The Russian-Indian agreement for delivering the Indian Navy’s new aircraft carrier is not really what experts would point to as a demonstration of a perfect bilateral defence trade. The recent price increase of $700 million for the retrofit of the Russian aircraft carrier is just another disillusioning setback in an increasingly misbalanced customer-seller relationship."

    "According to the official, this new offer comes as a total surprise for the Defence Department, which now had to discuss this issue again. The further demand of Moscow will shift the price to nearly three times the initial estimate." See defence.professionals | defpro.com

    "The Indian Navy’s acquisition of Russian-built aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov is facing yet another controversy as the accouting watchdog, the Comptroller and Audit General (CAG), Friday revealed that the “second-hand” warhorse will be 60 percent costlier than a new one and there is a risk of further delay in its delivery." See http://blog.taragana.com/n/second-hand-gorshkov-costlier-than-new-warship-cag-119665/

    Just because the Indian Defense Department is spineless or corrupt, it does not mean that India should kowtow to greedy Russia. Who agrees with me that the billion(s) should be spent on the indigenous INS Vikrant and Indian farmers? Let the Russians keep their 25 year-old ship.

    India is not a cash cow to be milked by the Russians!
     
  9. Vladimir79

    Vladimir79 Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    If you want to talk about Gorshkov, there are plenty of threads about it. This is not the place.
     
  10. StealthSniper

    StealthSniper Senior Member Senior Member

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    What are you on about Indian farmers and Indian defence business. If you were smarter you would see that India spends only $28 billion on defense or only 2% of India's total GDP. I hate it when people say we should be helping the poor people of India and not buying expensive military equipment. Again do some research Martian before you talk. India is spending less on it's military budget per GDP then most countries. India is doing alot for the Poor people of India and we have 1 biilion people so it won't happen overnight.


    Read more about what India had for the requirements for the Admiral Gorshkov and what the Russians had to do to meet those requirements. Most of the ship is going to be brand new and alot has been changed to make the Indian Navy happy also. Nothing is free like I said before and again nobody is giving us a total package (Nuke subs, Aircraft carriers, navy planes) like Russia is.

    And if you don't want us buying ships and stuff from Russia have fun when China and Pakistan is going to be knocking on your door in the present and the future.
     
  11. StealthSniper

    StealthSniper Senior Member Senior Member

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    And like Vladimir said stop derailing the topic. Alot of people are derailing topics recently and I am getting tired of it.
     
  12. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    My point regarding Russian abuse of Market Power is very simple. Russia should honor its contracts. India should not pay extra billion(s) on a done deal. Indian taxpayers should not have to keep paying billions of dollars to keep Russians happy. Only Russians are demanding billions from Indians.

    Do you see the Israelis, Europeans, or Americans demanding extra billions from India?

    "On 15 August 2007, Amurskiy Shipyard delayed delivery to India of the
    Project 971 Akula submarine, Chakra, till 15 June 2008, and asked for an
    increase in the contract price from $650 million to $785 million (Kommersant Vlast, 11 February)."

    StealthSniper thinks that it's perfectly fine for Russians to keep demanding billions of EXTRA dollars from Indians. I don't think it's right.
     
  13. tarunraju

    tarunraju Moderator Moderator

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    I don't think this will go down un-protested by the Indians, as they'd know, it won't stop at this (sale of 3rd generation fighter parts), if this goes down without any objection from the Indian side.
     
  14. StealthSniper

    StealthSniper Senior Member Senior Member

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    No I also don't see Israelis, Europeans, or Americans giving half the military equipment or the technical knowhow to India with no strings attached like Russia did. Honestly Russia, if they really wanted to can charge a premium for everything they sell to India, because honestly we couldn't get it anywhere else. But from what I have seen Russia have stood by us, they have given us technology, and every contract has been good except maybe the miscommunication on the Admiral Gorshkov.


    I also don't think it's right for the Americans to make us sign a end user agreement to sell us military equipment which have malicious code in it. Also if you think Russia is ripping us off for a Nuclear Sub, why doesn't America offer us one to bring in more competition, and maybe a lower price.
     
  15. Quickgun Murugan

    Quickgun Murugan Regular Member

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    Clearly you dont have an idea about Israelis then. After the delivery of the 1st phalcon AWACS, India had to pay more for the same Phalcon.

    The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | Phalcon price hike


    Your argument of Russia hiking Indian defence prices is totally irrelevant to this topic as what I am interested in knowing is why Russia had indirect defence deal with Pakistan.

    Please stop flamming
     
  16. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    The Israelis did not hike the price of an existing contract. They negotiated for a higher price for a future contract. That is not abuse of Market Power.

    "Israel has hiked the price for the Phalcon airborne warning and control centres by a third after the Indian Air Force opened negotiations to order three more systems." See http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090527/jsp/nation/story_11025576.jsp
     
  17. StealthSniper

    StealthSniper Senior Member Senior Member

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    Also to get back to the original topic before I get lost, I initially didn't agree with the Russians selling RD 93 engines to Pakistan, but then if India is buying stuff from America I think Russia has every right to sell to any country either. It's a buyers market and India can't expect to have Russia stand by them while they go on a shopping spree with Israel and America, stuff doesn't work that way.
     
  18. Quickgun Murugan

    Quickgun Murugan Regular Member

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    Sorry sir, JF 17 is a very capable fighter with immense potential for upgrade and is a "fourth generation fighter". How can you say that it is no threat to Indian interest when Pakistan plans to induct 250 of these air-crafts in the coming years to replace its aging fleet of A-5's and F-7's?

    The question is when Colonel-General Anatoly Mazurkevich blocked the deal saying it violates end user agreement, why did President Putin have to over-rule this and personally ink this deal after FGFA cooperation deal was signed?

    Of course there is no room for friendship in business, but why upset a cash-cow like India for sake of pakistan?
     
  19. Vladimir79

    Vladimir79 Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Russia To Allow Pakistan To Import RD-93 Aircraft Engines


    Russian President Vladimir Putin has recently signed the permission for the re-export of Russian engines RD-93 to Pakistan. RD-93 are installed on Chinese fighter jets JF-17 (also known as FC-1). Islamabad signed a contract with Beijing for 150 such jets. In total, China plans to buy around 1,000 RD-93 engines, worth $6-7 billion, from Russia.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin has recently signed the permission for the re-export of Russian engines RD-93 to Pakistan. RD-93 are installed on Chinese fighter jets JF-17 (also known as FC-1). Islamabad signed a contract with Beijing for 150 such jets. In total, China plans to buy around 1,000 RD-93 engines, worth $6-7 billion, from Russia.

    India spoke against re-exporting RD-93 to Pakistan. However, the Russian president’s staff said that the deal with China does not harm Delhi’s interests, and explains: “India buys not just next-generation jets from Russia, but ‘four-plus’ generation jets”.

    JF-17 fighter jets are the third generation, actually outdated machines. Meanwhile, if that deal had failed, Pakistan would have been able to acquire more modern Europe’s Eurofighter Typhoon jets or American F-16 aircrafts.

    Russia To Allow Pakistan To Import RD-93 Aircraft Engines | India Defence

    We did you a favour...
     
  20. Quickgun Murugan

    Quickgun Murugan Regular Member

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    As joker said, "If you are good at something, never do it for free"

    Russians and Israelis hike the price of their products because they know that India needs the product at any cost.

    The title of thread is simple "why did russia sell RD 93 to pakistan?". Don't drag it to a Russia extorting India thread, as India feels national security is more important than a few extra billion usd spent on your so called extortion.
     
  21. Quickgun Murugan

    Quickgun Murugan Regular Member

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    Let me quote it the right way. India does not have a problem when Russia deals with brazil, venezuela, Malaysia etc. But India certainly will have a problem when its so called "FRIEND" tries to arm its arch-enemy with a fighter engine.

    When Russia expects India to be fine with its Paksitan exports, then why does Indian defence deal with Ukraine annoy Russia??? This deal happened 2 years after Russian back-stab.

    India's defence pact with Ukraine annoys Russia: Rediff.com news
     

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