Why did China withdraw from Arunachal in 1962 skirmish?

Rage

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I think at 1962, IA troop had no chance to win over PLA at all.

60% of the troops who participated the war were veteran experienced 4 yrs civil war, and some of them even fought against US army and UN army in Korea. They have better war experience than IA.

If you really research the "Casualties and losses" from WIKI:
India
1,383 Killed[5]
1,696 Missing[5]
3,968 Captured[6][5]
1,047 Wounded [5]

China
722 Killed. [5]
0 Captured[5]
1,697 Wounded

---------------------------
The POW rate is: 3,968 : 0

It means it's just a total crash and collapse for the IA...


And i think now days, IA has better war experience than PLA, i just worry about future way between India and China, since China doesn't have war for 30 yrs.

Post-event casualty figures are a ridiculous rubric to determine retroactively the 'capability' of the IA to fight the PLA, particularly since it is known that the Indian government tried continuously to avoid the escalation of skirmishes into full-blown conflict. What cost the war was India's political dithering on whether to retaliate or not to retaliate in the face of China's pugnaciously revanchist and openly hostile ['hostile' used in the context of an obvious intent to wage war] policy of reprisal against India's 'forward bases'. This is evident in the revoking of Maj. Kaul's decision to mount an attack on Yumtso La in the eastern theater, before re-entering the lost Dhola post; or the provision of no support to the Indian troops that fought and died in the Galwan valley, the Chep Chap Valley and the Pangong Lake in the Western sector by Army majors- based upon the political developments in New Delhi and the declared intent of the pusillanimous Nehru government to seek a resolution to the conflict by diplomatic means.


On other occasions, the Indian troops were severely undermanned - take for instance the battle in the Eastern theatre at Namka Chu, where a severely attrited and understrength battallion of Rajputs had to face three Chinese regiments- and fought them to the finish; or the battle of Daulat Beg Oldi in the Western theater where Indian troops had to withdraw from forward posts after realizing the magnitude of the Chinese attack because they were so sparsely manned and under-provisioned.


For the vast majority of 'incidents' however, it was political dithering that done us in- take for instance on Oct. 10 when a patrol of some 50 Punjabi troops met an emplaced Chinese battalion of some 1,000 troops, without either reinforcements or the provision of artillery support - because it had been denied them by on high - yet managed to hold off the first assault, inflicting very heavy casualties on Chinese troops; or the battles at Gurung hill or Chushul where logistical inadequacy resulted in the loss of those areas. Later, even when the Indian troops were in a position to mobilize and inflict a withdrawal on Chinese troops with mortar and machine-gun fire, they were denied premission by Brig. Dalvi who chose not to do it because it would mean decimating the Rajputs who were still ensconced in the area of the Chinese grouping; and because of his perception that New Delhi was seeking to curtail assaults on the Chinese so as to avoid exacerbating post-party negotiations. That was a tactical decision to make, and it was made with catastrophic consequences because that single event forced the retreat of Indian troops from the Western sector.


On most occasions however, Indian troops fought bravely to the last - for instance in the Great Walong battle where a small contingent of Indian troops was outnumbered by 400-or so Chinese troops that launched heavy artillery fire, but in return inflicted heavy casualties of 200 dead or wounded on the incursing Chinese troops before Walong was captured- at a cost of more than half their regiment. The only notable exception was the unilateral withdrawal from Tawang - because by then the Indian Army had realized that further resistance in an environment of political inadequacy by the government was futile.


Arguably, the main lesson India learned from the war was the need to strengthen its own defences and a shift from Nehru's foreign policy based on his stated concept of "brotherhood" with China. Because of India's inability to anticipate Chinese aggression, Prime Minister Nehru faced harsh criticism from government officials for having promoted pacifist relations with China.


The classified Henderson-Brooks-Bhagat Report on the causes of the war and the reasons for failure also led to a massive overhaul of the Indian Army in terms of doctrine, training, organization and equipment, and also in terms of high altitude and jungle warfare: forms of warfare we've come to develop an increasing expertise in with dedicated schools based in Assam, Mizoram, Agra, Ladakh, Gulmarg und soweiter. - so that the Indian Army today is not the same force as it was 30 years ago.
 

Ray

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I'm saying that you asserted that borders remain relatively the same after the war. That is because the Chinese didn't want to take land and never had any intention of doing so, which you claimed to be due to Chinese failure.
Rather interesting a thought.

China did not want to capture anything and yet they went to war just to lose their soldiers?
 
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Vladimir is right, 5 Vietnamese divisions (and 30,000 troops never entered Vietnam from Cambodia) to fight against the chinese, to say the chinese did this to liberate Cambodia would mean this was a failure by the chinese since the vietnamese remained in cambodia till the late 1980's. So if Chinese did not do this to gain disputed territory or liberate Cambodia why did they do this since they failed on both of these counts?
 

Rage

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I'm saying that you asserted that borders remain relatively the same after the war. That is because the Chinese didn't want to take land and never had any intention of doing so, which you claimed to be due to Chinese failure.

The PLA goal was to prop up its Khmer-Rouge regime in Cambodia, which it FAILED to do. Phnom Penh was sezied by Vietnamese troops on 7th January 1979, after just a couple of months of fighting/ The Chinese also took asymetrically heavy casualties in numerous border incursions and incidents along their border with the Viets for years after that.


Gerald Segal, in his 1985 book 'Defending China', concluded that China's 1979 war against Vietnam was a failure because : "China failed to force a Vietnamese withdrawal from [Cambodia], failed to end border clashes, failed to cast doubt on the strength of the Soviet power, failed to dispel the image of China as a paper tiger, and failed to draw the United States into an anti-Soviet coalition."


While Chinese claim a considerably lower figure, independent and western analysts put the casualty figure at more than 25,000 personnel. And while no independently verifiable details of Vietnamese casualties exist, extapolations from the Work summary on the counter strike (1979-1987) published by The rear services of the Chinese Kunming Military Region establish the figure at 4,200 killed in total and 10,000 wounded.
 

Rage

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OK thanks for pointing out, and let me forgive your limited knowledge:

1. "The China National Highway 219, connecting Tibet and Xinjiang, passes through no towns in Aksai Chin, only some military posts and truck stops, such as the very small Tianshuihai (el. 4,850 m (15,900 ft)) post. The road adds to the strategic importance of the area."
Aksai Chin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So you think our missile troop won't equip the track can have mobility on such road condition?

"China National highway 219", that was built between 1951 and 1957, and that was one of the causes for the Sino-Indian border war, is in a state of disrepair according to atleast one blogger who has traversed the stretch extensively and has an intimate knowledge of the roadway:


http://raize.ch/Reisen/velo-eurasien/profil-yecheng-tibet-kathmandu.htm



2. Pictures with new airport in AK:

It's the newly built airport in AK, with 4500m lane

The title says in Chinese: once we take off, we will soon reach India,

So we can't deploy things here?

Ughhhh? You say you can "deploy" things in Aksai Chin at your "new airport"? Well, we've constructed a total of seven large and medium-size military airports in Arun'aachal Pradesh in the last several years, with many more civilian airports convertible to dual-military use. That "airport in Aksai Chin" is the size of the 'Teju New' airport in Lohit, Arun'aachal Pradesh- the smallest of the lot. You still want to try your luck ?
 

Rage

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China cannot do a 1962, border villagers say

2009-09-26 12:30:00


(Arunachal Pradesh), Sep 26 (IANS) : Sewang Lama, a businessman, was 11 years old when India and China fought a border war in 1962, with Chinese troops advancing deep into Arunachal Pradesh and inflicting heavy casualties on Indian soldiers.

Today, 58-year-old Lama, a father of three, is confident China cannot do a repeat of 1962 in this rugged eastern frontier.

'The situation was different in 1962 with the Chinese catching our soldiers unawares. Today, I am pretty sure the Indian Army would be able to give China a befitting reply in case they have any ill intentions,' Lama told IANS sounding proud and confident.

Lama has faint memories of the 1962 Chinese aggression.

'I remember my father shifting our entire family to a far off village to escape the rampaging Chinese Army... We probably stayed there for close to three weeks.'

The mountainous state of Arunachal Pradesh shares a 1,030-km unfenced border with China

The Sino-Indian border along Arunachal Pradesh is separated by the McMahon Line, an imaginary border now known as the Line of Actual Control (LAC).

Like Lama, 63-year-old Tamding Sarwang too has bitter memories of the 1962 war.

'Whatever happened is history, now China cannot do a repeat of 1962. The people of Arunachal Pradesh are solidly behind the Indian Army and would shed blood to protect our territory,' said Sarwang, a yak farmer near the Sela Pass perched at an altitude of close to 14,000 feet.

The writing on the wall is loud and clear - Arunachal is part of India.

'I am India, India is me. I love my India,' reads a slogan painted on rocks close to the Chinese border.

But there is a grouse among the locals here - they want New Delhi to firm up its stand against China and develop the frontier region to remove any sense of alienation.

'India should strengthen its troops and equip them with the best of weapons and take a bold step to make India's position clear on Arunachal. We also want our border roads and other infrastructure to be developed,' Ruwal Norbu, a community elder, said.

Arunachal Pradesh Chief Minister Dorjee Khandu echoes similar views.

'Chinese claims of Arunachal Pradesh is baseless. So India should once for all settle the border dispute and clarify all doubts,' the chief minister told IANS.

The border dispute with China was inherited by India from British colonial rulers, who hosted a 1914 conference with the Tibetan and Chinese governments that set the border in what is now Arunachal Pradesh.

China has never recognised the 1914 McMahon Line and claims 90,000 sq km, nearly all of Arunachal Pradesh. India accuses China of occupying 8,000 sq km of its territory in Kashmir.

After 1962, tensions flared again in 1986 with Indian and Chinese forces clashing in Sumdorong Chu valley of Arunachal. Chinese troops reportedly built a helipad in the valley leading to fresh skirmishes.

The latest hiccups along the border follow reports of Chinese incursions, which Beijing has denied.

Indian officials say there have been some incursions but this is routine since the border is not demarcated.


China cannot do a 1962: Tawang residents
 
S

salahsiwati

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to the Vladimir Ilich Lenin guy,haha,you really dont know the 1969 sino-soviet war,you may mislead by your "commy propaganda",haha,it seems you know noting about history about sino war with you and the Vietnan,at that time of sino vs vietnan,it seems like a proxy war btwen usa and cccp,china and usa made a deal ,usa will not make any noise when the war was gonging well,cccp and vietnan at that time are allies.we got the "permission' from the usa ,this a open secret, in fact this war is a small soviet-finland war
do you know this war ,soviet red army sufered a lot during your"big clean',and at first you got a very"bloody nose",Winter War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
you see, sino -vitnan war was on the same condition as you and fin,pla sufered a lot during our own"big clean", and we got the same ending,
all guys should clear about this ,the war during cold war time all have the background of ussr and the usa,from eu to aferica,even indu vs pak,most interesting tihing is sino -indu,ussr and the usa both suport india at that time
 
R

rockdog

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OK Mr. Wiki... let us clear up a few things. #1, the counter offensive on Damansky Island not only liberated it from PLA control, but the strikes on PLA forces killed over 800. The only reason we gave you the island last year was the only way to seal a $100 billion energy deal on our terms. The island was worthless anyway considering Chinese pollution has made the fish inedible and we get tens of billions in long term profit.
Again, you showed how little knowledge about the the history and geographic.

1. I already gave source about casualties about the sino-soviet war (even it's from Wiki), but you siad "strikes on PLA forces killed over 800" any source can be provided?

2. Damansky (остров Даманский) now is 100% controlled by China and PLA, and it's the agreement at 1990-1991. I think at that time, China and Russia didn't make any deal like $100 billion energy, we were short of $ at that time.

3. The recent at 2008 handover of land of Russia called:
Heixiazi Island
остров Большой Уссурийский


50% of them now handover to China, but i don't think China "Buy" the land from Russia, but because of lots of historical reasons.

Otherwise, Japan has more $, he could buy the the whole occupied "North four Islands" during CCCP's collapse at 1990's

4. Till now Russia still can't build the Oil pipeline to China, so China dosen't trust Russia at all, the so called $100billion deal is just a memorandum. i don't think Russia is so naive, to "sell" your land just by some memorandum.

5. BTW, the deal is only $25B, and it's signed at 2009.2; one year after Russia handover the land to China
Source:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-02/17/content_7485869.htm


---------------------


As far as the Sino-Vietnam war, PLA incompetence was well established with outdated tactics and poor logistics. Chinese troops were massacred in mass attacks from well fortified positions. Out of the 100,000 PLA troops that entered Vietnam, only 70,000 came out alive and only half came out unscathed.

The Sino-Vietnamese War, 1979 - Page 2 | Suite101.com

After Chinese troops retreated they left a scorched earth policy on their way out. Thanks to Soviet supplies and arms, Vietnam was able to whoop your arse. The land border of Vietnam is practically the same today as it was in 79'.
1. The linked article just mentioned with numbers, but no any official source at all. And the figure from WIKI is provided by Chinese authoriy (6000 killed).

I can also make the similar article, says 1 mllion CCCP army into Afg, but only 300 guys back home, but dose it make any sense? And did you gained any thing like dispute land?

OK, i got it, you gained a empire collapse. ^_^


2. You didn't compare the casualties between China and Vietnman, so you can't see who is the winner. Also all the dispute land belongs to whom now...

Just like the Finland-Soviet war before 1940, i still thought CCCP won the war, even single Finnish sniper killed 100+ Russian solders, becoz you gained land, even many red army killed much more than Finnish.


-------------------------

One quick advice, if you don't prepare the knowledge well for this topic, but keep quite. My knowledge and materials would give you a shame. ^_^
 
R

rockdog

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"China National highway 219", that was built between 1951 and 1957, and that was one of the causes for the Sino-Indian border war, is in a state of disrepair according to atleast one blogger who has traversed the stretch extensively and has an intimate knowledge of the roadway:


Notes, Graph and Satellite Images from the Yecheng - Western Tibet - Kathmandu Highway
Some previous replier just disagree with me that: China can't deply any mobile missile now at that area.

But i think, China already improved the infra and vehicle tech, and we can deploy things there. Any thing wrong?




Ughhhh? You say you can "deploy" things in Aksai Chin at your "new airport"? Well, we've constructed a total of seven large and medium-size military airports in Arun'aachal Pradesh in the last several years, with many more civilian airports convertible to dual-military use. That "airport in Aksai Chin" is the size of the 'Teju New' airport in Lohit, Arun'aachal Pradesh- the smallest of the lot. You still want to try your luck ?
You don't understand what i mean here.

My meaning was: once China deploy any short range weapon with low cost (like figher, missile) , we can easily hit your capital city since only 400km something.

But even you have massive fighters and missiles, it's hard the threat important Chinese city, since most of them of 2000km away.

So if China invest $1 to threat India at AK, India has to spent $10 as balance.

This called Strategic Threat!

This geographic advantage bringing lots of good things to China.

That Is my point, i don't want to make any di*k size measurement on sino-india border like which airport is better. Since we spent less, you spent more, even China has better economy strength.
 

nitesh

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Can't India bomb those things to oblivion or Chinese weapons are of some special grade that can't be destroyed?
 

badguy2000

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Vladimir is right, 5 Vietnamese divisions (and 30,000 troops never entered Vietnam from Cambodia) to fight against the chinese, to say the chinese did this to liberate Cambodia would mean this was a failure by the chinese since the vietnamese remained in cambodia till the late 1980's. So if Chinese did not do this to gain disputed territory or liberate Cambodia why did they do this since they failed on both of these counts?
hi,guy, without the support from Soviet, Vietnamese would not have had any resource to suuport its mission in Cambodia...

Vietnamese was just a proxy of Soviet against China.

China indeed failed to make Vietnamese retreat from Cambodia in 1979.
But Chinese indeed as well as Yankees made Soviet collapse in 1992.


After losing the support from Soviet, Vietnam became one poor doll at the disposal of China.:icon_salut:
 
R

rockdog

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Can't India bomb those things to oblivion or Chinese weapons are of some special grade that can't be destroyed?
Yes you can.

The Max threat existing when missile stay on the launcher, not after it launches.
This called threat.

But if India do so, will be full scale war.


BTW, a simple calculation:

10 mobile M11 deploy in AK, and ready aim to New Delhi, how much PLA spent, $100m?

And how much India will spent to Detect, Find, Destroy by your system, and how much you will spent for 10 agni-3 to aim Beijing?

I believe the invest ratio would be 1:10; and considering China India's GDP size, who is the winner?

---------------

Same idea. single airport at border, with a bomber only need 40mins to hit New Delhi, How many airport, fighters, air defense system need to builder?

Still, the $ ratio can be 1:10...
 

nitesh

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Yes you can.

The Max threat existing when missile stay on the launcher, not after it launches.
This called threat.

But if India do so, will be full scale war.


BTW, a simple calculation:

10 mobile M11 deploy in AK, and ready aim to New Delhi, how much PLA spent, $100m?

And how much India will spent to Detect, Find, Destroy by your system, and how much you will spent for 10 agni-3 to aim Beijing?

I believe the invest ratio would be 1:10; and considering China India's GDP size, who is the winner?
Now you are getting hilarious, apply some mind. On what basis you reached this 100m dollar figure? Some magic huh? Why India is investing on IRNSS and SAR capable satellites? Do you really think it is impossible to track Chinese can't Indian SF sneak in and destroy those? If these things are concentrated in some small area these are toast in no time. One slavo of IRNSS assisted BrahMos will be enough to destroy your so called threat.
 
R

rockdog

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Now you are getting hilarious, apply some mind. On what basis you reached this 100m dollar figure? Some magic huh? Why India is investing on IRNSS and SAR capable satellites? Do you really think it is impossible to track Chinese can't Indian SF sneak in and destroy those? If these things are concentrated in some small area these are toast in no time. One slavo of IRNSS assisted BrahMos will be enough to destroy your so called threat.
It's just as random number i can lable it as $**, showing you the price how China would threat india from AK, and the price how India will spent as a balance.

I thin u will agree that M11 is much cheaper than Agni-3, right?


And think your for "IRNSS and SAR capable satellites" system, defending attack from 400km (from AK to New dehli) will be very money costly, comparing China to defense attach from J&K to Beijing (3-4k km?).

Again, it's still about the Cost, considering the GDP raito of 4:1 between China and India. :icon_salut:
 

nitesh

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It's just as random number i can lable it as $**, showing you the price how China would threat india from AK, and the price how India will spent as a balance.

I thin u will agree that M11 is much cheaper than Agni-3, right?
Pure guess work I don't have access to costing of these weapons so it's a useless argument to say atleast until you have access to costings of both weapons

And think your for "IRNSS and SAR capable satellites" system, defending attack from 400km (from AK to New dehli) will be very money costly, comparing China to defense attach from J&K to Beijing (3-4k km?).
What is this? Can't make head and tail of it

Again, it's still about the Cost, considering the GDP raito of 4:1 between China and India. :icon_salut:
Huh your basic argument is flawed that India has to spend more. It's very easy to track movement of the weapons near border and defending against them in any event of war these will be the first to get hit.
 

Rage

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Some previous replier just disagree with me that: China can't deply any mobile missile now at that area.

But i think, China already improved the infra and vehicle tech, and we can deploy things there. Any thing wrong?

Your source?

Nothing wrong with your improvements on the 'infra and tech'. As long as you stick to your side of the border. In my opinion, Aksai Chin has become too built-up already to envisage any complete land transfer, just as Arunaachal Pradesh has.



You don't understand what i mean here.

My meaning was: once China deploy any short range weapon with low cost (like figher, missile) , we can easily hit your capital city since only 400km something.

But even you have massive fighters and missiles, it's hard the threat important Chinese city, since most of them of 2000km away.

So if China invest $1 to threat India at AK, India has to spent $10 as balance.

This called Strategic Threat!

This geographic advantage bringing lots of good things to China.

That Is my point, i don't want to make any di*k size measurement on sino-india border like which airport is better. Since we spent less, you spent more, even China has better economy strength.

Is that the question you were addressing? I believe you have me confused with nitesh bhai.


My contention is this: that while you can airlift troops and vehicles to your single airport in Aksai Chin, we can do the same more than 7 times over in the state of Arun'aachal Pradesh. What's more, you realize that we have a disproportionate percentage of personnel in the state of J&K. Meaning that any troops you airlift into the Western theater in the first assault will almost certainly not be enough.


There is no argument over whether China will be able to last longer in a protracted war, given the larger size of its economy, the distance of its primary cities and its significantly larger forex reserves. But any war that is fought between India and China will not be fought between the two rivals alone: it is almost inconceivable to imagine a war, unless it is a limited, small-scale border conflict- in which case our infrastructure, barring roadway construction to forward bases in the state of Arun'aachal Pradesh, is already significantly more consolidated than yours along the entire stretch from the eastern to the western sector- in which India and China will be the sole belligerent participants. On your side ofcourse you could reign in Pakistan into the fray, but the US's vice grip over Pakistan's polity, and reasonably concatenated grip over its armed forces, will mean that there will always be a conflicting dynamic there. The U.S., on the other hand, will most likely provide significant military and monetary aid to India in order to take advantage of the conflict. However unlikely a protracted conflict may be, it's outcome will almost certainly be influenced by the participation of other players in the region.
 

roma

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Patience , it's on the way

Can't India bomb those things to oblivion or Chinese weapons are of some special grade that can't be destroyed?
Be a bit patient , we indians are a divesre bunch , the PRC instead have been by force homogenised , in india unity is happening but its a bit slower as we respect out varied cultures.

But the nuclear policy is being thought -out in india , right now theyve made a strong backbone refusing to sign some silly npt, ctbt and others , soon a tougher nuke strategy , then what you proposed can be a reality
 

nitesh

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Be a bit patient , we indians are a divesre bunch , the PRC instead have been by force homogenised , in india unity is happening but its a bit slower as we respect out varied cultures.

But the nuclear policy is being thought -out in india , right now theyve made a strong backbone refusing to sign some silly npt, ctbt and others , soon a tougher nuke strategy , then what you proposed can be a reality
roma, no need to resort to nukes, simply use a well directed attack towards radar sites with Ka 31 and BrahMos from some MKI and then wave of MiG27 and Jaguar with MKI acting as top cover to eliminate the missile batteries or the artillary operation. oh you are forgetting the LCH in to equation.
 

roma

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If you really research the "Casualties and losses" from WIKI:
India
1,383 Killed[5]
1,696 Missing[5]
3,968 Captured[6][5]
1,047 Wounded [5]

China
722 Killed. [5]
0 Captured[5]
1,697 Wounded
i have come across these very same figures in some PRC propaganda videos in youtube.

assuming they are correct , it means that while prc pretended to be a friend of india ( zhou enlai's trick ) and india was absolutely unprepared, it means that while indian soldiers were armed with farmers rifles ( which you had to cock and then shoot and re-load ) and prc's were armed with the latest soviet machine-guns ( they were friends then , questionable now though ) , it means that even with all that disadvantadge , the indian soldiers still managed to kill 722 prc soldiers and wound over 1,600 ?

hey , well done jawans !!

today with the disadvantage more or less equalised on the conventional weapons ( but not the nukes ) the indian jawans, wil show prc some skill eh ?

then the GOI needs to brush up on their nuke policy ( made a great start by refusing to sign the unequal npt and ctbt ) , if they get the RAJ bomb i proposed and shpe up by mass producing nukes and missiles , then who cares what prc has !

if they can bomb the whole world over 50 times and we in india can do it "only" 29 times , that's fine by me !
 

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