Why are so many Indians ignorant about the demographics of J&K?

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civfanatic

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I think all Indians regardless of state (not sure abt the NE though :hmm:) are obsessed with skin colour. No one specifically wants to fall in love or marry a "dark" girl, though I'm not sure if girls also look for "fair" guys. :D

This thread provided some good education though on ethnic and linguistic differences in the far north. I thought everyone from Delhi and up was a "Punjabi", just like some naarth Indians used to think everyone from Karnataka down was a "Madrasi" :p
Wasn't it Shiv Sena (Marathis) who coined the term "Madrasi" as an ethnic slur, rather than Naarth Indians?

Anyway, tomorrow is Ugadi (New Year) as per the Satavahana calendar, which happens to be followed by Marathis as well as Madrasis.
 

PredictablyMalicious

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And look at the "cm increase per decade" column in your own link. Punjabi average height has actually decreased by 0.04cm (probably due to migrations, ~10% of Punjab's population is estimated to be of migrant Biharis now), while J&K's average height has increased in the last decade by 1.09cm.. This only goes to show that the height difference between Punjabis and Paharis was even greater in the past, so some of the notions of Paharis being generally shorter than Punjabis are not unfounded.
J & k has even lower GDP per capita than Punjab and the same height therefore dogras are actually taller than punjabis. In the future when the GDP per capita catches up to punjab's level, j&k avg height would be higher than punjab's.
why has Punjab avg height decreased? And how come the so called Paharis are taller than haryanvi Jats who share the same genes as you? Truth is dogras cannot be called paharis. That's a bs term that applies much more to himachalis and people from uttarakhand who actually are short. Dogras are not paharis by genetics. As I said before its a mistake to lump Jammu dogras with himachalis. Look at himachal and uttarakhand avg height. They are much shorter than people from J&K. Women from J&K clearly stand out as the tallest in India. That has to be considered as well. And once again all of this while being a relatively poorer state.
 
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Known_Unknown

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Wasn't it Shiv Sena (Marathis) who coined the term "Madrasi" as an ethnic slur, rather than Naarth Indians?

Anyway, tomorrow is Ugadi (New Year) as per the Satavahana calendar, which happens to be followed by Marathis as well as Madrasis.
I don't know if the SS coined the word "Madrasi", but yes, they certainly used it in a derogatory manner in the 60's and 70's when South Indians were flooding Mumbai.

Maharashtra itself though is a hybrid mix of South and North Indian cultures so mercifully, Marathis usually watch Naarth-Saauth arguments from the sidelines, making sure to cheer or taunt one or the other as the opportunity presents itself. :taunt:

I didn't know what "Ugadi" was, so I looked it up, and it seems it's the Kanadi term for what Marathis call "Gudi Padwa":

Gudi Padwa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yea, so Happy New Year to all Kanadis, Marathis and Telegu people. :)
 

Tronic

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J & k has even lower GDP per capita than Punjab and the same height therefore dogras are actually taller than punjabis. In the future when the GDP per capita catches up to punjab's level, j&k avg height would be higher than punjab's.
As I said, they are not the same height. Your own link shows that! J&K height is actually shorter than Punjab, and this despite Punjab's average height declining and J&K's increasing by over 1cm in the last decade alone! Hardly the "same" height.. Whatever way you look at it, Dogras are shorter. Even the army requirement of height is lowered for Dogras.

And now please don't resort to "ifs and buts", just like our neighbours always do... Yes, Punjabis have had a high carb, high protein diet for centuries due to large, fertile lands and this probably contributes to the physical characteristics. Saying that with same diet, Dogras would be taller is just speculation on your part..

why has Punjab avg height decreased?
As I stated earlier, possibly due to the huge rise of Bihari population in Punjab.

And how come the so called Paharis are taller than haryanvi Jats who share the same genes as you?
As far as I know, Dogra height requirements for army are shorter than the requirements for Jat regiment. So I don't know how are you saying Paharis are taller than Haryanvi Jats?

Truth is dogras cannot be called paharis. That's a bs term that applies much more to himachalis and people from uttarakhand who actually are short. Dogras are not paharis by genetics. As I said before its a mistake to lump Jammu dogras with himachalis. Look at himachal and uttarakhand avg height. They are much shorter than people from J&K. Women from J&K clearly stand out as the tallest in India. That has to be considered as well. And once again all of this while being a relatively poorer state.
Well, in that case, both the terms "Punjabi" or "Pahari" are redundant. "Dogras", "Jats", "Garhwals", "Gorkhas"... these actually mean something as they are true ethnicities.. "Punjabi" or "Pahari" is not an ethnicity.. Dogras are Pahari people as they live in the hills, but it is not an ethnicity, that I agree.. but likewise, neither is "Punjabi" an ethnicity..
 

PredictablyMalicious

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As I said, they are not the same height. Your own link shows that! J&K height is actually shorter than Punjab, and this despite Punjab's average height declining and J&K's increasing by over 1cm in the last decade alone! Hardly the "same" height.. Whatever way you look at it, Dogras are shorter. Even the army requirement of height is lowered for Dogras.

And now please don't resort to "ifs and buts", just like our neighbours always do... Yes, Punjabis have had a high carb, high protein diet for centuries due to large, fertile lands and this probably contributes to the physical characteristics. Saying that with same diet, Dogras would be taller is just speculation on your part..



As I stated earlier, possibly due to the huge rise of Bihari population in Punjab.



As far as I know, Dogra height requirements for army are shorter than the requirements for Jat regiment. So I don't know how are you saying Paharis are taller than Haryanvi Jats?



Well, in that case, both the terms "Punjabi" or "Pahari" are redundant. "Dogras", "Jats", "Garhwals", "Gorkhas"... these actually mean something as they are true ethnicities.. "Punjabi" or "Pahari" is not an ethnicity.. Dogras are Pahari people as they live in the hills, but it is not an ethnicity, that I agree.. but likewise, neither is "Punjabi" an ethnicity..
From the link: Average height of men from J&K= 168.3 cm
Average height of punjabi man = 168.6 cm
Are you saying, the 0.3 cm difference clearly shows that punjabis are taller than dogras? That is extremely weak argument. Even the error in those measurements is larger than that...
Btw, again, Average height of woman from J&K = 154.6 cm
Average punjabi woman = 154.3 cm
So here, we see that the average woman from J&k is taller than the average punjabi woman by the exact same margin of 0.3 cm! So is it enough to prove dogra women are taller than punjabi women, then using the same logic?
THe reason why Dogras may have lowered height requirement is because as you said, J&K was much poorer a decade ago and the people were shorter. Even now it is poorer than Punjab and other northwestern states like Haryana.. However, dogra height has increased.. Also a significant portion of the dogras in Dogra Regiment are from Himachal Kangra region and as the link shows, the average Himachali male is significantly shorter than the average male from J&K. Therefore, recruitment of Himachali dogras has skewed the average Dogra male height in that regiment.
And again, Average Haryanvi male = 168.1 cm. So by using the same logic, the average male from J&K is 0.2 cm taller than the average Haryanvi male and the average woman from J&K is 0.1 cm taller than the average haryanvi female. Since a significant portion of Haryanvi population consists of the Haryanvi Jats , it would be logical to infer that Haryanvi Jats are probably as tall if not shorter than the average male and female from J&K.
I agree with you that Punjabi is not an ethnicity and in this case, since it is known that Himachalis are shorter on average than Jammuites, Dogra cannot be considered an ethnicity either. Therefore, the argument that the average Dogra is shorter because Dogras have lower height requirement falls apart as well as I mentioned above.
Using actual stats, I can easily make the case that Dogras are even taller than Punjabis and Haryanvis, but on the other hand, it seems awkward to try to reason that dogras are noticeable shorter than either of those communities.
Btw the average punjabi height decreased only by an insignificant -0.04. That is not enough to say it is because of Bihari migration or something else. It makes sense that punjabi height is not increasing as much as say, J&K since Punjab is relatively more developed state with quite a low malnutrition rate compared to most other states.
 
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hit&run

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@Singh, I did laugh at the part about blonde punjabis though, no offence, but wtf :lol: Blonde Punjabi??? Is such a thing even possible?
Every kid in my house is light brown hair, I dono why after adolescence we all now are with black hair and we are Punjabis since known history.

Can post pictures of my nephews and nieces.
 
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Tronic

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From the link: Average height of men from J&K= 168.3 cm
Average height of punjabi man = 168.6 cm
Are you saying, the 0.3 cm difference clearly shows that punjabis are taller than dogras? That is extremely weak argument. Even the error in those measurements is larger than that...
A decade ago, the height difference was 1.13 cm, so Paharis were/are shorter than Punjabis, although you are maybe catching up (I say 'maybe' because J&K statistics don't only refer to Dogras but also count in ~7 million Kashmiri population).... so no, J&K statistics are not indicative of only Dogras.. Infact, the Kashmiri population outnumbers you..


Btw, again, Average height of woman from J&K = 154.6 cm
Average punjabi woman = 154.3 cm
So here, we see that the average woman from J&k is taller than the average punjabi woman by the exact same margin of 0.3 cm! So is it enough to prove dogra women are taller than punjabi women, then using the same logic?
Again, J&K statistics are not Dogra stats..

THe reason why Dogras may have lowered height requirement is because as you said, J&K was much poorer a decade ago and the people were shorter. Even now it is poorer than Punjab and other northwestern states like Haryana.. However, dogra height has increased.. Also a significant portion of the dogras in Dogra Regiment are from Himachal Kangra region and as the link shows, the average Himachali male is significantly shorter than the average male from J&K. Therefore, recruitment of Himachali dogras has skewed the average Dogra male height in that regiment.
And again, Average Haryanvi male = 168.1 cm. So by using the same logic, the average male from J&K is 0.2 cm taller than the average Haryanvi male and the average woman from J&K is 0.1 cm taller than the average haryanvi female. Since a significant portion of Haryanvi population consists of the Haryanvi Jats , it would be logical to infer that Haryanvi Jats are probably as tall if not shorter than the average male and female from J&K.
I agree with you that Punjabi is not an ethnicity and in this case, since it is known that Himachalis are shorter on average than Jammuites, Dogra cannot be considered an ethnicity either. Therefore, the argument that the average Dogra is shorter because Dogras have lower height requirement falls apart as well as I mentioned above.
You are speculating to suite yourself.. Blaming the low height requirements in army for Dogras on the Himachal Dogras, yet clubbing the Haryanvi Jats with all Haryanvis and saying they are probably same or shorter height as Dogras.. lolll.. I get the dick measuring contest, but this is getting really ridiculous.. Blaming Punjabis for something which you yourself are knee deep in! :D

Using actual stats, I can easily make the case that Dogras are even taller than Punjabis and Haryanvis, but on the other hand, it seems awkward to try to reason that dogras are noticeable shorter than either of those communities.
First of all, you are comparing one specific ethnic group, Dogras, to a wide range of ethnic groups in Punjab and Haryana. Makes no sense. "Punjabi" and "Haryanvi" is as much an ethnicity as "Pahari". We already went over this..

Secondly, I'd like to see these statistics.. no such stats comparing ethnic groups exist.. You are using J&K statistics, where majority of the population is not even Dogra!! Unless you want to rely on army data.. and that doesn't suite you..

Btw the average punjabi height decreased only by an insignificant -0.04. That is not enough to say it is because of Bihari migration or something else. It makes sense that punjabi height is not increasing as much as say, J&K since Punjab is relatively more developed state with quite a low malnutrition rate compared to most other states.
A height decrease of 0.04 cm is insignificant, so it cannot be due to migration? that makes no sense whatsoever.. and Bihari population in Punjab just shot up to 10% of Punjab's total population.. that's an insignificant demographic shift?.. loll..

I call an end to this dick measuring contest which has been based on nothing but ridiculous assertions..
 

PredictablyMalicious

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A decade ago, the height difference was 1.13 cm, so Paharis were/are shorter than Punjabis, although you are maybe catching up (I say 'maybe' because J&K statistics don't only refer to Dogras but also count in ~7 million Kashmiri population).... so no, J&K statistics are not indicative of only Dogras.. Infact, the Kashmiri population outnumbers you..




Again, J&K statistics are not Dogra stats..



You are speculating to suite yourself.. Blaming the low height requirements in army for Dogras on the Himachal Dogras, yet clubbing the Haryanvi Jats with all Haryanvis and saying they are probably same or shorter height as Dogras.. lolll.. I get the dick measuring contest, but this is getting really ridiculous.. Blaming Punjabis for something which you yourself are knee deep in! :D



First of all, you are comparing one specific ethnic group, Dogras, to a wide range of ethnic groups in Punjab and Haryana. Makes no sense. "Punjabi" and "Haryanvi" is as much an ethnicity as "Pahari". We already went over this..

Secondly, I'd like to see these statistics.. no such stats comparing ethnic groups exist.. You are using J&K statistics, where majority of the population is not even Dogra!! Unless you want to rely on army data.. and that doesn't suite you..



A height decrease of 0.04 cm is insignificant, so it cannot be due to migration? that makes no sense whatsoever.. and Bihari population in Punjab just shot up to 10% of Punjab's total population.. that's an insignificant demographic shift?.. loll..

I call an end to this dick measuring contest which has been based on nothing but ridiculous assertions..
LOL so you just admitted that kashmiris are taller than punjabis... LMAO btw no kashmiris are not particularly tall. There are no stats, but I would say Dogras and kashmiris are pretty much the same. In fact, dogras are probably taller than kashmiris. Singh's link also said that average height requirement was lowered for Kashmiris as well as dogras. Also, Ladakhis are included and they are much shorter than both dogras and kashmiris so they are lowering the average!
As an aside, do you feel particularly tall when you go to Pathankot? You know Pathankot people are dogras too and speak dogri. Are they shorter than the people in Jalandhar or Amritsar?
And even I don't want to argue about this but @Singh brought up from nowhere that dogras are "stocky", which I found ridiculous. That was a ridiculous assertion to begin with.
 
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ashdoc

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Yes, she is a dogra. Keep in mind that those with the last name "Dogra" are mostly lower caste. It is not a big deal, but just saying.
dosen't matter . i really like her . acted really well in dhobi ghat . bought the maxim magazine issue with her photo in bikini .
 

pmaitra

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Yes, she is a dogra. Keep in mind that those with the last name "Dogra" are mostly lower caste. It is not a big deal, but just saying.
Hmm, so she is lower caste? Yet, she still looks like she is "Aryan." I'd rather have her than Mamata Didi, who is a Brahmin. :troll:
 

Tronic

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LOL so you just admitted that kashmiris are taller than punjabis...
You're on crack... lol.. don't know if you're reading something else on another forum, or you just translating my words into what you really want to hear. :D

LMAO btw no kashmiris are not particularly tall. There are no stats, but I would say Dogras and kashmiris are pretty much the same. In fact, dogras are probably taller than kashmiris. Singh's link also said that average height requirement was lowered for Kashmiris as well as dogras. Also, Ladakhis are included and they are much shorter than both dogras and kashmiris so they are lowering the average!
Oh please... 7 million Kashmiris plus millions of Jammu Paharis, and you use 2 lakh Tibetans as excuse that they are lowering average.. and at same time, you didn't think that 10% of Punjab's population being Bihari migrant didn't lower Punjab's average and was "insignificant"... shows why your assertions are filled with complete bias..

As an aside, do you feel particularly tall when you go to Pathankot? You know Pathankot people are dogras too and speak dogri. Are they shorter than the people in Jalandhar or Amritsar?
Never been to Pathankot.. Have no relatives there, and there isn't really much to do there..

And even I don't want to argue about this but @Singh brought up from nowhere that dogras are "stocky", which I found ridiculous. That was a ridiculous assertion to begin with.
Than stop arguing and just post some more pics of girls...
 
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KS

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How can a Dogra be a Rajput ?

Arent both Dogra and Rajput different ethnic groups/tribes ?

So what is your ethnicity - Dogra or Rajput ?
 

PredictablyMalicious

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How can a Dogra be a Rajput ?

Arent both Dogra and Rajput different ethnic groups/tribes ?

So what is your ethnicity - Dogra or Rajput ?
Dogra is an ethnicity. rajput is a caste. I am a dogra, not a rajput but a dogra brahmin. Same with other ethnic groups. It's like asking how can a khatri be punjabi or how can a tamil be a brahmin?
Maybe @Virendra can elaborate more on whether Rajput is an ethnicity or caste
 
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A chauhan

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Punjabies have hijacked the thread
Yeah, for them history of India means history of Punjab.

Altitude plays a negative role in body growth, Dogras have grown in J&K where average altitude is 1850 meters from sea level unlike Punjabis who have grown in fertile lands of Punjab with 300 meters of altitude, even then Dogras have pretty nice height which is appreciable. Hence Dogras are better fit for mountain or high altitude warfare as their body have naturally tuned for low oxygen/high altitude areas Imo.
 
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PredictablyMalicious

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Yeah, for them history of India means history of Punjab.

Altitude plays a negative role in body growth, Dogras have grown in J&K where average altitude is 1850 meters from sea level unlike Punjabis who have grown in fertile lands of Punjab with 300 meters of altitude, even then Dogras have pretty nice height which is appreciable. Hence Dogras are better fit for mountain or high altitude warfare as their body have naturally tuned for low oxygen/high altitude areas Imo.
Sir, thanks for your support but now I have made a truce with DFI Punjabis. As a dogra you know, I am pathetically outnumbered by the DFI punjabis :D. Moreover, punjabis are actually quite close to us dogras. Actually in India, I feel the closest to punjabis after dogras in terms of culture, attitude, etc... So better to leave that.
 
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