Why are indigenous weapons discouraged in India ?

[WMD]

@Kunal Biswas
sir, doesn't the oman army also use INSAS ARs as their standard AR?

 

[Mariner HK]

BREAKING NEWS... And Cracking Joke ...India tests underwater BrahMos missile, but has no submarine to fire it :fp:


SOURCE: TNN


The utter lack of long-term strategic planning in the Indian defence establishment was once again evident on Wednesday when the country for the first time tested the 290-km range BrahMos supersonic cruise missile from underwater.The submarine-launched version of the missile was "successfully" tested from an underwater pontoon off Visakhapatnam around 2.10pm. BrahMos chief A Sivathanu Pillai promptly declared, "The missile is fully ready for fitment in the 'Project-75 India' submarines of the Indian Navy in vertical launch configuration, which will make the platform (submarine) one of the most powerful weapon platform in the world."
Defence minister A K Antony also chipped in soon after by saying, "It's a wonderful achievement and proud moment for India." DRDO chief V K Saraswat said it was "a significant step towards boosting India's military strength". Other defence scientists proclaimed this was "first time any supersonic cruise missile has been launched vertically from a submerged platform".

Amid all these gushing accolades, they however forgot to mention one critical fact: the Project-75 India submarines are nothing but a mere pipedream at present. With even the initial global tender or RFP (request for proposal) for them yet to be floated, the Navy will not get the first such submarine anytime before 2023.

"What's the use of having bullets but no gun to fire them from? Even if the defence ministry gets cracking immediately on the long-delayed P-75I, it will take three to four years to select the foreign submarine-manufacturer for technological collaboration. Thereafter, it will take another seven to eight years for the first submarine to roll out," said a senior official.

The BrahMos missile cannot be fitted on the Navy's existing fleet of 10 ageing Russian Kilo-class and four German HDW submarines, half of them in any case are fully operational at any given time. Nor can it be deployed on the six French Scorpene submarines being constructed in the Rs 23,562-crore Project-75 underway at Mazagon Docks (MDL) in Mumbai, under which the vessels will now be delivered in the 2015-2020 timeframe three years behind schedule.

Project-75 India, in turn, has failed to take off after going around in circles for several years now. The Cabinet committee on security will have to clear the RFP before it is issued because two of the submarines have to imported from the foreign vendor finally selected. Three will subsequently be built at MDL, and the last at Hindustan Shipyard at Visakhapatnam, after transfer of technology.

All this of course does not detract from the utility of the air-breathing BrahMos, which flies at the speed of Mach 2.8, as a "precision strike weapon". It has been inducted by some artillery regiments in the Army as well as a few naval warships.

The Army is moving ahead to induct three versions of the multi-role BrahMos, having already placed orders worth Rs 9,484 crore, over the next two-three years. Navy and IAF, in turn, have ordered BrahMos missiles worth Rs 3,568 crore and Rs 1,295 crore, respectively, as of now.

 

[Payeng]

now take that report in other wise, A XYZ nation have SLBM/SLCM capable submarines but no missiles to fire out from them and no nations are willing to selling them (either the missile or the technology)

 

[Mariner HK]

Comparision of Insas and G3 Assault Rifle
G3:

Weight 4.4 kg (9.7 lb) (G3A3)
4.7 kg (10 lb) (G3A4)
5.54 kg (12.2 lb) with optic (G3SG/1)
4.1 kg (9.0 lb) (G3K)
Length 1,025 mm (40.4 in) (G3A3)
1,025 mm (40.4 in) stock extended / 840 mm (33.1 in) stock collapsed (G3A4)
1,025 mm (40.4 in) (G3SG/1)
895 mm (35.2 in) stock extended / 711 mm (28.0 in) stock collapsed (G3K)
Barrel length 450 mm (17.7 in)
315 mm (12.4 in) (G3K)
Cartridge 7.62x51mm NATO
Action Roller-delayed blowback
Rate of fire 500-600 rounds/min
Muzzle velocity 800 m/s (2,625 ft/s)
Effective range 100–400 m sight adjustments
Feed system 20-round detachable box magazine
Sights Rear: rotary diopter; front: hooded post

(Wikipedia)

INSAS :

Weight 4.25 kg (9.4 lb) empty
4.6 kg (10.1 lb) loaded
Length 960 mm (37.8 in),
750 mm (29.5 in) w/stock folded
Barrel length 464 mm (18.3 in)
Cartridge 5.56x45mm NATO
Action Gas-operated, Rotating bolt
Rate of fire 650 rounds/min
Muzzle velocity 900 m/s (2,953 ft/s)
Effective range 450 m
Feed system 20/30-round detachable box magazine

 

[Payeng]

now take that report in other wise, A XYZ nation have SLBM/SLCM capable submarines but no missiles to fire out from them and no nations are willing to selling them (either the missile or the technology)

:sucide:

 

[Mariner HK]

OK my friends... Another BREAKING NEWS: CBI probes scam involving DRDO, ordnance factory
Published March 21, 2013

SOURCE: DHNS


The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) is probing a financial scam involving ordnance factory officials in Madhya Pradesh who are hand in glove with scientists at the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) laboratory in Pune over purchasing poor quality propellant bags for Pinaka multi-barrel rockets at an inflated price.

The defence ministry has accorded sanction to the CBI for probing purchases worth crores to procure rubberised bags at the Ordnance Factory, Itarsi for transportation of propellant for Pinaka rockets from one ordnance factory to another.

The Bhopal unit of CBI registered a preliminary inquiry against the ordnance factory officials besides scientists at High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL), Pune and Nagpur-based VLS Industries, which supplied the bags.

HEMRL, a an unit under the DRDO, allegedly favoured the supplier by accepting bags of substandard quality at high rates, Minister of State for Defence Jitendra Singh informed the Rajya Sabha on Wednesday.

On the request of the CBI, necessary permission was accorded by the defence ministry to probe the activities of then assistant general manager of the ordnance factory who played a key role in securing the contract for the Nagpur firm.

The disclosure from the defence ministry a week after Singh's senior and defence minister A K Antony admitting in the Parliament that in the last three years defence ministry sent as many as 90 cases to the CBI for investigation including 10 cases alone in January, 2013.

Out of these 90 cases, Antony stated in the Upper House last week that as many as 42 cases were pending investigation, 41 cases were under trial and five cases had been closed.

After all CBI for 30 year never found guilty of corruption atall .As india is corrupt free nation in the world or CBI is also CORRUPT ? .. GREAT U DECIDE!

 

[A chauhan]

now take that report in other wise, A XYZ nation have SLBM/SLCM capable submarines but no missiles to fire out from them and no nations are willing to selling them (either the missile or the technology)

:sucide:

Do you mean that we shouldn't have developed Brahmos SLCM because we don't have submarine to launch it ?

What's wrong in developing a bullet first ? otoh I doesn't take to much to convert a CM into an SLCM if you have done it previously.

 

[Payeng]

corruption is an inevitable phenomenon around the world, what we can change is the work culture

 

[Mariner HK]

Some points I know but detailed analysis can provided by Seniors

1. Insas is not reliable in cold conditions, this problem has come to surface when Nepal army complained about cracking of magazines during war with Maoists.

2. Insas do not have new features which are being sought in modern rifle, Multi barrel ,adding granade launcher under barrel, ambidextrous control (i.e. can be locked/unloacked with both right and left hands).

INSAS has fast moving lighter bullets whereas Ak-47 has slow moving heavier bullets. But, I think the lethality and destructive power of a bullet depends upon it muzzle energy. INSAS has muzzle velocity of 900 m/s and muzzle energy of 1684 Joule. Ak-47 has slower muzzle velocity of 715 m/s but higher muzzle energy of 2010 Joule. INSAS can be made as world's best but who will? surely not drdo or of ... They want us venders for some weired reason..At 5 times cost of insas ...

 

[Mariner HK]

Do you mean that we shouldn't have developed Brahmos SLCM because we don't have submarine to launch it ?

What's wrong in developing a bullet first ? otoh I doesn't take to much to convert a CM into an SLCM if you have done it previously.

dude ...Its good to develop slcm bramos but very BAD not to have flatform to use it... And for next decade we wont use this SLBM.. so is it good or bad ? BADDDDD !!!

 

[Payeng]

Do you mean that we shouldn't have developed Brahmos SLCM because we don't have submarine to launch it ?

What's wrong in developing a bullet first ? otoh I doesn't take to much to convert a CM into an SLCM if you have done it previously.

lol no what I mean is a counter reply to this report....

BREAKING NEWS... And Cracking Joke ...India tests underwater BrahMos missile, but has no submarine to fire it :fp:


SOURCE: TNN


The utter lack of long-term strategic planning in the Indian defence establishment was once again evident on Wednesday when the country for the first time tested the 290-km range BrahMos supersonic cruise missile from underwater.The submarine-launched version of the missile was "successfully" tested from an underwater pontoon off Visakhapatnam around 2.10pm. BrahMos chief A Sivathanu Pillai promptly declared, "The missile is fully ready for fitment in the 'Project-75 India' submarines of the Indian Navy in vertical launch configuration, which will make the platform (submarine) one of the most powerful weapon platform in the world."
Defence minister A K Antony also chipped in soon after by saying, "It's a wonderful achievement and proud moment for India." DRDO chief V K Saraswat said it was "a significant step towards boosting India's military strength". Other defence scientists proclaimed this was "first time any supersonic cruise missile has been launched vertically from a submerged platform".

Amid all these gushing accolades, they however forgot to mention one critical fact: the Project-75 India submarines are nothing but a mere pipedream at present. With even the initial global tender or RFP (request for proposal) for them yet to be floated, the Navy will not get the first such submarine anytime before 2023.

"What's the use of having bullets but no gun to fire them from? Even if the defence ministry gets cracking immediately on the long-delayed P-75I, it will take three to four years to select the foreign submarine-manufacturer for technological collaboration. Thereafter, it will take another seven to eight years for the first submarine to roll out," said a senior official.

The BrahMos missile cannot be fitted on the Navy's existing fleet of 10 ageing Russian Kilo-class and four German HDW submarines, half of them in any case are fully operational at any given time. Nor can it be deployed on the six French Scorpene submarines being constructed in the Rs 23,562-crore Project-75 underway at Mazagon Docks (MDL) in Mumbai, under which the vessels will now be delivered in the 2015-2020 timeframe three years behind schedule.

Project-75 India, in turn, has failed to take off after going around in circles for several years now. The Cabinet committee on security will have to clear the RFP before it is issued because two of the submarines have to imported from the foreign vendor finally selected. Three will subsequently be built at MDL, and the last at Hindustan Shipyard at Visakhapatnam, after transfer of technology.

All this of course does not detract from the utility of the air-breathing BrahMos, which flies at the speed of Mach 2.8, as a "precision strike weapon". It has been inducted by some artillery regiments in the Army as well as a few naval warships.

The Army is moving ahead to induct three versions of the multi-role BrahMos, having already placed orders worth Rs 9,484 crore, over the next two-three years. Navy and IAF, in turn, have ordered BrahMos missiles worth Rs 3,568 crore and Rs 1,295 crore, respectively, as of now.

and yes you are right a gun is made because their is a prospect of bullet.

N:B: @ ac::clobber:

 

[A chauhan]

dude ...Its good to develop slcm bramos but very BAD not to have flatform to use it... And for next decade we wont use this SLBM.. so is it good or bad ? BADDDDD !!!

Off course not! we can keep upgrading it with newer technologies until we have a submarine to launch it, we already have Brahmos projects running. It will be like rejecting the permanent membership of UN security council on the grounds of poverty.

lol no what I mean is a counter reply to this report....

and yes you are right a gun is made because their is a prospect of bullet.

N:B: @ ac::clobber:

:*(

 

[sayareakd]

Some points I know but detailed analysis can provided by Seniors

1. Insas is not reliable in cold conditions, this problem has come to surface when Nepal army complained about cracking of magazines during war with Maoists.

Pic of worlds second most coldest place, first one is in Russia.

2. Insas do not have new features which are being sought in modern rifle, Multi barrel ,adding granade launcher under barrel, ambidextrous control (i.e. can be locked/unloacked with both right and left hands).

Multi barrel will have its own problem.

Plus all these feature will going to increase the cost INSAS cost 2500 INR unit.
While multi barrel rifle with all the above features minues the UBGL costs 150,000 INR per unit.(cost of kickbacks not added)

 

[Snuggy321]

LOL at people who complain about the MMRCA, FGFA or Su30MKI deals....these were the best things which could happen to our IAF.


Or do they think that our young industry can just come up with something good as these established manufacturers with decades of experience.....

Typical fanboy ranting guided by blind patriotism.

 

[Mariner HK]

Off course not! we can keep upgrading it with newer technologies until we have a submarine to launch it, we already have Brahmos projects running. It will be like rejecting the permanent membership of UN security council on the grounds of poverty.

Haree baba ! Its good to have SLBM brahmos
but no platform to use it now. WHY ? The utter lack of long-term strategic planning in the Indian defence establishment They are not serious about it.Even Scorpin Subs delayed due to lack of fore sight and Corruption all the way. Who is to blame and is this right or good ? NOOO

 

[Mariner HK]

DRDO plz watch this video once... SIZE or Age doesnt Matter....... IT THE WILL TO DO IT learn from this lil Boy ... !

[video=youtube_share;wLmImBUBRdc]http://youtu.be/wLmImBUBRdc[/video] Afterall Lord Shiva learnt from his son Lord muruga U r no greater than lord

 

[p2prada]

Am saying again to u. If our army need multi caliber ammo fired gun INSAS should be upgraded.What stops DRDO .Ordinance factory and other defence PSUs to invent a new rifle system ? Any good reason form them? I tell u whagt it is .Its a 7 billion + 1 Billion $ scam revealed just few days before .VERMA who is in jail now did it.

They are designing new rifles for the newer requirements. INSAS simply does not cut it anymore.

RESPECT ! If we had tejas mass produced then how will our babus netas get bribe and kick backs by buying rafale or super or sukoi or upgrading mirrage at the cost of new mirrage fighter ?

A new Mirage fighter, if it did exist would have come at $80Million a piece, at the same cost as a F-16 B52. Upgrading it is only half the price.

Even if Tejas is mass produced netas and babus will still get paid bribes because this time PSUs will be bribing them. Have you read about the BEML Tatra deal, where the BEML tried to bribe the Army Chief recently.

16 years? Why ? We have a sample flatform flying now.Now we have good knowledge on merits and de merits of tejas .If we need to add another engine even a simple aam admi know that Frame must made stronger with increasinfg its load and other capability ,Provide additional space for one more wngine .Increasing the fuel capacity and much more with can be done in 2 years.. if we have good planning etc..As hal upgraded many AC on their own.. Is it not possible?

This project requires working from scratch. New, modified airframe, new FCS etc. Adding an extra engine made it an entirely new aircraft.

It not because mk2 is bad.. Its because army want light weight T90 so kickback will be gained. Arjun is a very good tank out matched t90.How a light weight tank will wars ? THIS IS NONSENSE we neeed Heavy tanks also .If it is ARJUN it can be mass produced and number can be kept in secrecy... Its an advantage.Our army must be told to live with wat we have..So they will learn how to use this tank in efficient manner than just opting for t90 new model revealed in DEFO india

In terms or protection the Arjun Mk2 "may" be slightly better than the T-90S while Arjun Mk1 is inferior to T-90S. We don't know which is better between T-90MS and Arjun Mk2. There is no real difference in protection when it comes to heavy weight vs medium weight. Also, in terms of firepower, the T-90S is better than Mk1. The army won't be able to maintain a second supply chain inside enemy territory, one reason why the current Arjuns are not in strike corps.

The army won't be pressurized by MoD, this is one of the very foundations of our military. They cannot be told to live with what we have as long as options are available. The army will ALWAYS buy what they deem is the best.

Currently all DRDO projects are solely for the services. In case DRDO is not able to deliver, the services is given permission to import the same item that is in development. The same with Arjun. DRDO could not deliver and hence they gave the Army permission to import T-90s. DRDO could not deliver jet trainers and hence IAF imported Hawks. DRDO could not deliver basic trainers, again IAF imported. Each time, DRDO has to give permission if the services wants to import a competing system.

If the army is asked to live with what we have, after having lost the war, the army won't take responsibility for being given faulty and inferior equipment.

WAIT ? yeah my father's gen waited ,now am waiting sure my son will wait too.. WE WILL WAIT untill weapons mass produced by chines.After the invaded and take control of this nation ...

Yup. We can only wait, or import, because DRDO does not yet have a proven track record for delivery. Give it another 15 years, let's see what our new major projects will do which are starting now. Indigenous capability will come to reality only after 20 or 30 years though. That is if DRDO starts delivering now.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Oman Police force use INSAS ..

@Kunal Biswas
sir, doesn't the oman army also use INSAS ARs as their standard AR?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Rifle is not about curls and its looks its about how good it is in field....

Pic of worlds second most coldest place, first one is in Russia.

 

[Bachchu Yadav]

@Kunal Biswas @sayared

OK ! then reply the original question why this Gun is being replaced ?