Why are indigenous weapons discouraged in India ?

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by Mariner HK, Mar 18, 2013.

  1. Mariner HK

    Mariner HK Tihar Jail Banned

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    Controversial arms agent Abhishek Verma's name has once again surfaced for allegedly bribing Home Ministry and Defence Ministry officials in securing a defence deal in favour of US small arms manufacturer Sig Sauer.

    NDTV has accessed extensive correspondence between Abhishek Verma's wife Anca Neacsu and Sig Sauer officials, which show the US company was using Mr Verma and his associates for gaining entry into the Defence Ministry and Home Ministry.

    Eyeing a $1 billion contract to replace Indian Army's Insas Assault rifles, Sig Sauer conspired with Mr Verma using his two front companies - Ganton USA and Ganton India. Documents show Sig Sauer agreed to pay 10 per cent commission to Mr Verma.

    The documents, which include bank transactions, show that payments of $50,000 and $125,000 were made to procure two tenders. The documents have also named several top officials which influenced the deal, including officials of Joint Secretary level in the Home Ministry.

    The documents are being investigated by the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) including videos taken in the Home Ministry and Defence Ministry.

    Abhishek Verma is currently in Tihar jail on charges of illegal arms dealings. He was arrested in December 2012.

    America's Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) is verifying the authenticity of correspondence between Mr Verma and his estranged partner C Edmonds Allen, who was the president of New-York based company Ganton.

    Mr Allen has alleged Mr Verma's involvement in the Rs. 3,600 crore VVIP chopper deal with Anglo-Italian company AgustaWestland. He forwarded emails between Mr Verma and AgustaWestland to Indian agencies in the last week of February, but investigators are yet to find any evidence of Mr Verma's involvement in the chopper deal, which is also being probed by the CBI.

    US firm Sig Sauer paid arms dealer Abhishek Verma to secure rifle deal in India, show documents | NDTV.com

    [​IMG] Insas is a great rifle.No one as any prob with it.But these corrupt babus makes money by destroying indian weapons. This is why we dont have Tejas and other projects not completed.. SHAME




    New evidence links Abhishek Verma to Sig Sauer's deals

    Fresh evidence has been received against controversial arms agent Abhishek Verma suggesting that he bribed top military, police and Home Ministry officials as well as obtained secret documents to fix deals for leading US small arms manufacturer Sig Sauer.

    The arms manufacturer allegedly employed him and his wife Anca Neacsu to procure deals for the Army, National Security Guard (NSG), Ministry of Home Affairs as well as state police departments.

    While investigative agencies are still going through the evidence — received in the form of documents, e-mails and files last week by the Defence and Home Ministry, besides investigative agencies — sources said several files point to violation of the Official Secrets Act (OSA), Indian anti-corruption laws as well as the US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (FCPA).

    Sig Sauer did not respond to a detailed questionnaire sent by The Indian Express. The documents name several top officials, including of joint secretary level in the Home Ministry.

    The new evidence also suggests that Neacsu shot secret videos from a hidden camera during visits to Home Ministry departments in the Capital and meetings with senior officials handling procurement of small arms as "proof" of their high connections.

    Verma and Neacsu are already in jail facing charges under the OSA and of forgery. The new batch of information will add to the ongoing CBI probe into their dealings in allegedly receiving and paying commissions to swing arms deals.

    The new allegations specifically are:

    * The Sig group conspired with Verma and his associates to sell arms to India in violation of the FCPA and Indian laws. A JV called Sig Sauer Asia LLC was created with the sole purpose of paying 10 per cent commission on all arms deals made with the Defence and Home ministries in India.

    * Home Ministry procurement officials, senior police officers and bureaucrats received favours to swing deals, in the guise of foreign tours, dinners and site visits.

    * Illegal videography and photography was carried out by Neacsu and her associates in sensitive locations as "proof" of their high connections. This included the Home Ministry.

    New evidence links Abhishek Verma to Sig Sauer's deals - Indian Express
     
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  3. Mariner HK

    Mariner HK Tihar Jail Banned

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    Just like how quttorachhii was linked to Sonia Gandhi n italy connection in the past and it went round and round in circles and went nowhere... nothing is going to come out of this too forget it
     
  4. Mariner HK

    Mariner HK Tihar Jail Banned

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    ]Why Insas is not good? If it not good make it better ... Thats why our tax payer money been spent on DRDO ? WHAT THE ---- IS THIS ?
     
  5. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    INSAS is best Rifle, Ask any one in Infantry who use it on regular basis and also used AK ..
     
  6. Mariner HK

    Mariner HK Tihar Jail Banned

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    thats wat am saying its damn good rifle.... This is why all defence projects are delayed from
    TEJAS- Its reasonable to think that all AC exporters including RUSSIA USA UK FRANCE dont want us to have our own TEJAS program,Now swiss is also pushing to stop tejas and co-Produce gripen ,
    KAVERI - Obvious no country want us to have engine .Like i mentioned russia usa uk etc.
    Missile -Thank God for un resolution .Not to supply missile to other country ... SO Here we see good success rate as no country can export missile to india as its effect un convention,

    Hope u all noticed after we bought large numbers of perticular weapon drdo starts testiong the same weapons and tell we ll complete it in 5 years time ... How many times it happend? They just waited to sign PAKFA , RAFALE,Mirage jaguar and mig 29 upgrades and now tejas has no problem it flying well and completed 2050+ flights ... :confused: mark my words Ths INSAS Rifle is great and the best but army wont accept it. Its a way we work ,, SHAMELESS NATION keep mum always wat so ever.. Another best examples are t90 tanks... After we bought hell lots of these tank now we have arjun MK1... We wont have arjun MK2 untill we sign deal to buy or upgrade t90 new model.. Same thing with Artilary guns.. We signed a deal with USA and now we got our Indigenous Bofor platform gun tat too upgraded version ....

    I just put this simple question ?[/SIZE] to u all ... As i mentioned above IS THESE THINGS ARE CO INCIDENT? or these are the way we work[/SIZE][/U]... We singed a deal with france for short range s2r missile and there we go we ll hAVE our own...

    BUT WHO ll ASK these to Madam Ji ? Long live Madam ji and here italian family hope they will be the richest of all in itally and india... Long live prince 40 yr old YOUTH leadr of india.. We got great future ahead.. Please invent one cheap rocket suit.. We all can escape to safest place MOON:violin:
     
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  7. Mariner HK

    Mariner HK Tihar Jail Banned

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    Mod thanks .. can u please linkl it with all corrupt thread on indian defence...
     
  8. Mariner HK

    Mariner HK Tihar Jail Banned

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    I ment threads on defence corruption in india ..Soryy
     
  9. Mariner HK

    Mariner HK Tihar Jail Banned

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    First comes a "request for proposals" from the ministry of defence. Once suppliers respond with their offers, the data is evaluated by officials and experts.

    That leads to the first down-select, to identify the most promising offers. Those suppliers are then invited to submit much more detailed proposals, or if the equipment already exists, to send prototypes or the fully-developed systems for actual testing, as well as technical assessments.

    That, in turn, is followed by a second evaluation phase that results in the definitive down-select of one or more systems. Then comes a process of bargaining to identify the least-costly solution, with or without side-negotiations over additional subsystems that might be wanted, or, to the contrary, to remove installed subsystems either because they are deemed unnecessary (mere "bells and whistles") or because another supplier's subsystem is preferred (these days, Israeli electronics are often favoured).

    Once all negotiations are concluded, the winning proposal is finally proclaimed, and the actual contract is jointly written out in full detail, including offsetting local purchases and the schedule of deliveries, with or without local co-production.

    Once the contract is signed, the armed forces can at long last begin their possibly lengthy training of operators and maintenance staff. The process is identical in India, yet its procurement record is different — not because of corruption, but for the very opposite reason. Officials are so terrorised by fears of being accused of corruption, or of a lack of technical or cost-accounting expertise, that they avoid personal responsibility, refusing to decide what they themselves are squarely in charge of.

    Instead of decision-making, there is its studious avoidance.

    It is obvious that the basic process itself from the drafting of the original request for proposals to the drafting of the final contract is elaborate, so that it can only be completed in timely fashion if a rapid pace is kept up.
     
  10. Mariner HK

    Mariner HK Tihar Jail Banned

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    The Fighter Deal

    That programme was started in 2001, and Dassault Rafale was down-selected in January 2012, but instead of prompt production, what started was another round of multi-layer decision-making that might stretch for years, not counting the delays of coproduction with HAL, famous for not delivering Tejas Light Combat Aircraft after 30 years of trying.

    The Rafale is a good machine, but it did first fly in 1991; it is already behind the times in not being at all stealthy, and now risks obsolescence by the time all 126 are delivered. To avoid the risks of corruption back in New Delhi, IAF pilots must risk their lives in outdated aircraft even in training, and would be gravely handicapped in combat.

    Nor is Ranjan Mathai's "co-development" idea feasible. Slow as it is, the Pentagon is ultra-fast as compared with its Indian counterpart, precluding any joint development programme.

    So, the lesson from Agusta? Make Indian establishment less afraid of corruption.
     
  11. Mariner HK

    Mariner HK Tihar Jail Banned

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    Antony Must Cancel Rafale Deal!


    by Rajinder Puri


    Fresh developments have made it imperative that the government cancel the Rs. 62000 crore Rafale fighter jet deal. The defence ministry is staggering from one corruption scandal to another. What is surprising is that even though warning signals are given in time the government refuses to heed them. Even while the government is mired in the Augusta Westland Helicopter scam the threat of the Rafale fighter jet scam is looming over its head. Readers might recall that one year ago in March 2012 it was pointed out in these columns that there was a cloud over the Rafale deal.

    Broadly three reasons were cited why the deal was questionable.

    First, the opposition shadow defence minister of Britain Ms. Seabeck criticized Prime Minister David Cameron for allowing Rafale to get the Indian contract over Britain’s Typhoon fighter jet also in the race. By implication Ms. Seabeck was alleging that the French got the contract because of superior public relations. Reading between the lines it meant that Britain did not attempt to counter kickbacks paid by the French. Thereby Britain lost many jobs while its employment situation was critical.

    Secondly, to reinforce this innuendo London’s prestigious newspaper The Guardian went a step further. It wrote: “He (Cameron) appears to have no links with India’s real decision makers, the Gandhi family… Power within India’s ruling Congress Party rests with the Gandhis.” The obvious question arose why the Gandhis were relevant when no member of the family had direct responsibility in the Defence Ministry. It might be noted that this Guardian report came much before Italian authorities had disclosed in their charge sheet on the Augusta Westland Helicopter scam that 28 million Euros bribe had been paid to “the family” in India. Nor is it without significance that one of the two key middlemen who allegedly paid bribes in the Augusta Westland deal was also a middleman acting for the Dassault Company that manufactures the Rafale fighter jet. He is Mr. Christian Michel based in London.

    Thirdly it was reported that two senior officials of the defence ministry who were members of the contract negotiation committee questioned the methods adopted by it to conclude that the Rafale fighter jet had the lowest bid for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal. At the final stages Rafale had edged out the British fighter jet Typhoon while the other competitors from the US, Russia and Sweden had been eliminated earlier. Rafale knocked out the American F-16 and F-18, Russian MiG 35 and Sweden’s Gripen on the basis of technical performance. It defeated Britain’s Typhoon on life-cycle costs.

    It might be recalled that in April 2009 Raphael was officially debarred during the technical evaluation stage for non-compliance. The aircraft was disallowed participation in the next stage of field trials. There were gaps in the technical bid submitted by Raphael team. The defence ministry sought clarifications from the French company but received unsatisfactory answers. Thereafter the ministry excluded Rafale from further participation in the tender. But mysteriously a month later Rafale was back in the race! A defence ministry official said: “Since it was only paper evaluation and the French company Dassault Aviation has now supplied the missing answers, the Defense Procurement Board has decided to allow Rafale to take part in the actual field trials.”

    It is in this background that the latest omission by the Dassault Company which owns Rafale must be considered.

    From the details provided by the company it is not clearly specified that the costs quoted by it include the transfer of technology and training related to the Rafale fighter jet. The defence ministry has sought a written commitment from the company that these be included in the cost. The Dassault Company is not providing the written commitment. The earlier act of non-compliance by the company was subsequently papered over by the defence ministry through an unconvincing explanation. Surely the defence ministry should not accept this latest act of non-compliance. If the company does not promptly do the needful Mr. Antony should cancel the deal. Enough is enough.

    Mr. Antony as yet has a reputation for personal probity despite the scandals surrounding his ministry. People believe he is personally clean. But his reputation will be in tatters if he goes through with the Raphael deal. It is small comfort for the public if a minister does not personally accept bribes but allows those he cannot afford to displease to do so in order to safeguard his position. Mr. Antony cannot any longer afford to look the other way. He has to stop the rot. The ultimate tragedy is of course that even quality equipment sorely required by our armed forces is being denied to them because greedy politicians are not being prevented from putting their hands in the till. Because of corruption the nation is losing money. Because of corruption our armed forces are losing capability.
     
  12. Snuggy321

    Snuggy321 Regular Member

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    Because we have access to the best systems in the world. And if they are better or if DRDO cannot deliver in time what we need, we will go for other sources.

    And bashing the MMRCA deal or the FGFA deal for the sake of TEJAS(lol) is simply ridiculous.
     
  13. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    Conduct a survey.....

    If Army says it does not suit their required, it does not suit period.

    Who is the user ?
     
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  14. Jagdish

    Jagdish Regular Member

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    Hard to understand former airchief called LCA a Mig-21+++ fighter , but point is the aircraft replacing Mig-21 if is +++ then its good enough to replace Mig-21 with current configuration & later can be modified as potent configuration , Eg: Mig-29 in 80's is nothing infront of Mig-29SMT & Mig-35 , airframe almost remains the same but the equipment inside has changed a lot , even LCA can evolve the same way
    LCA Tejas will be an advanced version of MiG 21: IAF chief - Brahmand.com

    Same thing with Arjun Tank , they outperformed & outgunned T-90 , but army wants T-90MS which had many problem reason Arjun is heavy
    Arjun was designed keeping in mind that Pakis will go for Abrams , but pakis never got abrams & so did the Arjun interest dropped by Army
    DRDO did come up with a lighter tank called TANKEX with mergeing T-72 chassis & Arjun Turret , even that was refused by Indian army siteing Vibration issue

    We can't blame DRDO for all the issue , there is serious issue with IAF,IA perception towards Indigenious weapons & to add salt to that DPSU does not keep the quality standards which DRDO sets while TOT

    Indian Navy is quite OK when it comes to Indigenious weapons they have far more better ration than IAF & IA , but classic eg: Naval LCA ADA preference is IAF tejas
    Naval variant is secondary where Navy is very keen on Naval LCA
    Livefist: F-35? We Want The LCA Navy: Indian Navy Chief

    On top of that major road block is Arms lobby which does not want India to become self reliant in defence , because they loose business
     
  15. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Firstly, one should talk after conducting a survey..

    Secondly, Army never said it does not suit there requirement, dont put your words on someone else mouth..

    And as you quoted my comment here it is based on personal experience and people in various Infantry units from GR, Kumaon & Dogras so does Punjab..

    Who are not from Mod or some politician mouth so does some arm dealer .. ;)

     
  16. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    have you ever used a rifle ?
     
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  17. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    Ha Ha Ha..

    Not internet survey......

    If Army says INSAS is not good, it is not good.
    They would have conducted a survey !!


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Warning Handed..
     
  18. nimo_cn

    nimo_cn Senior Member Senior Member

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    because India does not have a government which is strong and determined enough to make India military force to procure indigenous weapons.

    Sent from my HUAWEI T8951 using Tapatalk 2
     
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  19. Mariner HK

    Mariner HK Tihar Jail Banned

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    Why MMRCA why not 2 engine MCA TEJAS? Any gud reason ADA/DRDO? Any good personal benifit ? Tipping point in Indian Democrazy

    It really worries me as a Indian with great Ancient past.I wondered did we had some extra brain like Drop Tanks in the ancient times when we had greatest technology advancement in all field. We had a knowledge of starts its movements ,UFO (vimanas) greatest mega cities with 11 lac germ palaces ,Drainage system and much much more.When today nasa the world's best space agency ,Microsoft and many leading co has HUGE contribution from INDIAN. Once Bilgates said,If usa want to stop our recuirment of indian into microsoft We have no other option but to shift to INDIA. But,This 2nd largest population in the world,Country which thought humanity the ways to live like human is the worst weapon producers.Even small nations like Israel Japan Malaysia brazin singapore export their defence equipments,Civil and military technology.

    We have the worst history of failurw in Indigenous weapons capabilities.Whole world laugh at our face.Including our own people laugh at ADA,DRDO ,HAL and othe defence PSUs when ever they say that This product will be inducted in 5 years or what ever the time they mention. Its a shame how can this Great Indian Human Race succeed abroad and in Private Firms in india but cant produce a RIFILE ,Tanks,Fighter jets and other normal essential Weapons required to save this nation from security threats.Now some of fools reading this will counter a question "Kid producing indigenous AC is not easy DEAL' I Agree but are DRDO ,ADA ,Ordinance factory, HAL etc not ASHAMED to say this...? For what taxpayers money been paid them for ? Since a normal poor indian cant produce a high tec weapon these defence PSUs are created and recuited on basis on their talent to produce these things... THEY MUST PRODUCE INDIGENOUS WEAPONS...Thats their primary objective.

    Lets come to our 30 year old legacy. TEJAS. Today every deal is a scam.Its true no bitching.The same core group selected Agusta choppers which was denied as too costly by PRESIDENT of UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ,Clinged the Rafale deal .How can this deal been clean and honest.That too rafale was rejected during field trails by INDIAN AIRFORCE and EF typoon came up as a leader.IAF expressed its intrest on EF typoon.Later rafale was brought back our defence minister and later won the deal.Am not saying rafale is a bad choice what am saying wat if ef was our better choice ? What ever we all agree to disagree on MMRCA. Now how can one belive this was a fair deal with no kick backs ? If there was a kick back for 20 Bil$ deal the kick back amount is very huge.If a dassault paid this huge bribe to get this deal its obvious the price the offer to us will be manuplated and ll be high . Ofcourse it will be.After all Rafale is not for charity . So this deal is not and will not be fair.Am affraid it ll even move ahead.Now the price quoted by rafale is less so it was our winner but the tricky part is this quated price is not the life cycle cost ? Rafale was lowest bidder against EF typoon 's Price and life cycle cost .. This is the problem for not signing this deal yet.Our Mr.Perfect Antony Ji said negotiations are going on to make rafale accept this bidding price as inclucive of life cycle cost. Thats why my friend we got news that MMRCA deal will cost more than what we thought.this is not bitching we all knew about it. MAKE SENSE ? Dont know this deal will go through or not...

    What if we scraped mmrca deal.Its a possible many times came close to it recently and in the past. Now because of these anti national politicians Kick backs and bribe now our countries security is at STAKE.We already 7 squadrens less.Pakistan getteinf new and upgraded f16s,j17,j11b and j10 is also on card for pakistan,on eastern front its CHINA.I really wonder how our politicians takes china so easily when USA-sole super power is affraid off,the whole South China sea nieghbours getting togher (ganging up) to take this chinese might but INDIA takes it as ALL IS WELL. China wont attack india .As if China is our bab. Senseless and poor fore sight of our defence personal will be felt when whole lots of missile and bombs rains from our skies.But these BABUS and Netas will flee to other western nation where they will live like a BILLINIORS... Sometime i thought this might be the reason the steal too much. So what can we do for our IAF? Only remedi is Scrap this deal first. Lets have this mother of all deal money 20 billion dollars for mmrca ,chopper deal some 6 bils$ or more, i mean india to spend nearly 100 bilion on weapons. Just think wat if this huge money Invested in our INDIGENOUS PROGRAMS. Insteed of rafale we can produce our own Medium class tejas with two engines.We can buy engines and other system for now and assemble it in our 2 engined config MCA tejas. CANT we do it? We will produce our own MCH , medium wieght Dhruv helli.
    We always critic China for coping but do u all remember when our PM Mr.Singh on rare occation opened his mouth and said to our defence PSUs like drdo,ada hal etc that "BEG,STEAL or BUY" ? But is so funny and shamefull that we cant even do that? We had To for t 90, sukoi 30 mki but do u know the production rate and quality of the machine we produce is not the quality of the russian's . And w still cant produce su 30 mki at the rate which we have to ? Hal is so casual about it so has our babus and netas.Now is that mean we dont have ability to even "BEG STEAL"?

    What shall we do know ? :We need accountability black and white from defence PSUs.The head of the project should be held and stripped from his position and all gonerment benifits should be stoped for not meeting the dead line or indulge in corruption or lobbied by forign weapon vendors to delay the indigenous projects.I strongly belive it will have greater impact on our projects and paythe way for indigenous weapons.
    We need to bring in Private players and use the model of USA and RUSSIA where 2 to 3 companied like HAL will compete with each other.Today hal makes some jokes like basic trainer will be ready by 2015 ...now we all should notice is that due to this delay of this WW2 design trainer with tuboprop fan ...We had to buy swedish trainer for double or triple the cost.Is it a co insident ? Or IS IT A ORGANISED CRIME? All project meet this same fate and we end up exporting.If are are exporting its fine .But why do we waste our money pay hal cheif and drdo and othe PSUs ?Just think about the money spent till now and what was the result? NOTHING

    Our Army recently expressed is dissatisfaction on ARJUN MK2... our army should be told that u must live with it.As russians and usa had to at their early years...What ever they got they mass produced it and later IMPROVED it.If we keep importing where are to taking our future ? What is the use at the time of war when exported country ban INDIA or sanctioned us ?

    Now just think about the following BELOW.: tell ur comment on it Like how u felt and how u feel :

    Year 2014.War escalated between india and Pakistan .China enters the war .USA ,russia and kept out of conflict .As nuclear war may break out and they call for peace in the region. Prime Minister Mr.Modi order for War time projects INCLUDING MCA tejas .Not cheep like tekas mk1 but cost arround 80 mil $.With more power full Specs.To mass Produce.To prepare for full blown WW3.
    [​IMG]


    MCA Tejas

    Project started 2014
    First Flight: 2015 december
    Induction 2016 ~2017 on war time basis.
    Thanks for DRDO ADA .

    Specs:
    India copied specs from best delta wing fighters fron Ef and Rafale

    Crew: 1 or 2
    Length: 52ft 9in
    Wingspan: 35ft 11in
    Max Takeoff weight: 51,809Ibs
    Powerplant: 2× Eurojet EJ200 afterburning turbofans, 20,250Ibs
    Max Speed: Mach 2+
    Max Supercruise Speed: Mach 1.5
    Range (without tanks): 864 miles
    Service Ceiling: 65,000ft

    Mass produced and later exported to its ally. Now India forms its own alliance.Takes potions as the leader of the group.

    Year 2020 India test flown its Pak Fa with russian help and also AMCA ... With these technology India to upgrade its MMRCA tejas into 5 th gen Features. Now world's Chepst 5 th gen Fighter is born...

    HOW WAS IT TO READ? May be very ambitious but WHY ITS NOT POSSIBLE ?

    Long live this great nation.May our mother HINDUSTAN reclaim its Super Power Again
    By-Hareesh Kumar (MARINER HK)
    ..JAI HIND

    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/49099-why-mmrca-why-not-2-engine-mca-tejas-any-gud-reason-ada-drdo.html
     
  20. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Are you talking about Nepalese infantry? I think they sent them back.
     
  21. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    For what ??
     

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