Why are India's air force planes falling out of the sky?

[jouni]

May be Finland is completely insignificant in geopolitics? What does Finland do to get noticed by other nations?

Why should we be noticed? Better that not too many knows how things are in here.

 

[jouni]

You have been quite lucky with your air force. Compared to Finnish air force, your airwars for the past decades has been mere skirmishes.

According to Kalevi Keskinen's and Kari Stenman's book Aerial Victories 1–2", the Finnish Air Force shot down 1,621 Soviet aircraft while losing 210 of its own aircraft during the Continuation War.

A stripped-down, more maneuverable, and significantly lightened version of the American Brewster B239 "Buffalo" was the FiAF's main fighter until 1943. Results with this fighter were very good, even though the type was considered to be a failure in the US Navy and with British Far East forces. In the Finnish use, the Brewster had a victory rate of 32:1 – 459 kills to 15 losses.

 

[sgarg]

@jouni, you are wrong about wars of the subcontinent. IAF always flew intensively but the periods of wars were short. The losses reflect the low duration of the conflict and general availability of aircraft rather than intensity of war.

The next war involving India will see far higher air activity compared to past wars due to improvement in IAF's capabilities.

I cannot comment on your air force vs USSR air force. You talk like Finland established rule over Russia.

 

[sgarg]

deleted double post

 

[sgarg]

Since data is very important, I am listing PAF and IAF losses as per Wikipedia and other sources in 2014

PAF
16/1/2014 - Mirage V
3/6/2014 - Mirage ?
1/10/2014 - JF-17 (? type not confirmed)
21/11/2014 - Mirage ?

IAF
28/3/2014 - C130J
27/5/2014 - Mig-21
1/8/2014 - Jaguar
14/10/2014 - Su-30

 

[sgarg]

Pakistan helicopter crashes 2014

25/6/2014 - Ah-1F Cobra
20/9/2014 - Mil-171

India Helicopter crashes 2014
25/7/2014 - Dhruv
2/10/2014 - Cheetah

 

[sgarg]

The above data proves that Indians planes are NOT falling from the skies. What more argument anybody wants, I am ready to offer.

 

[jouni]

@jouni, you are wrong about wars of the subcontinent. IAF always flew intensively but the periods of wars were short. The losses reflect the low duration of the conflict and general availability of aircraft rather than intensity of war.

The next war involving India will see far higher air activity compared to past wars due to improvement in IAF's capabilities.

I cannot comment on your air force vs USSR air force. You talk like Finland established rule over Russia.

Ok, lets hope there will not be another war. Peace is better.

 

[sgarg]

I decided to look at Mirage III and V losses in PAF to get a good idea if India's Mig-21 is as bad as it is made out to be.

Chronological Listing of Pakista

Mirage is same generation fighter as Mig-21, so it is illustrative. The above document shows very clearly that PAF has suffered similar losses of Mirages as IAF has suffered in case of Mig-21.

Both countries suffer similar attitudes of not spending enough money on maintenance. Fighter aircraft are maintenance intensive. Our air force likes to buy new planes but then forgets to properly maintain them.

 

[jouni]

I decided to look at Mirage III and V losses in PAF to get a good idea if India's Mig-21 is as bad as it is made out to be.

Chronological Listing of Pakista

Mirage is same generation fighter as Mig-21, so it is illustrative. The above document shows very clearly that PAF has suffered similar losses of Mirages as IAF has suffered in case of Mig-21.

Both countries suffer similar attitudes of not spending enough money on maintenance. Fighter aircraft are maintenance intensive. Our air force likes to buy new planes but then forgets to properly maintain them.

Maintenance and training is the key. Our F-18s regularly beat some other countries Eurofighters etc newer planes ( in training exercises )

 

[sgarg]

@jouni, however I must add the situation in IAF has improved significantly. IAF has retired accident prone planes and the current fleet has much lower accident rate. There is still some question marks on IAF internal maintenance work but the situation with spares, facilities for overhaul and repair etc. are much improved.

 

[roma]

@roma, the aircrafts in service today are from 80s or later. Older aircrafts have been retired.
I agree that procurement policies have been defective. The airforce needs to be supported by local industry. Mostly import driven approach has not worked for India.
However the number of fighter aircrafts produced locally will increase significantly in coming years. LCA Tejas will be a prime component of this change.
A number of aircrafts are being upgraded and refurbished. The entire IAF fleet is getting rejuvenated. There is a lot of activity in updating the airforce.

oh so now we are using those the 1980's ? that's supposed to be ok ?
i think if you look at the post below the mig 21's of finland were already retired out of service

nevertheless i do believe you wholeheartedly that there is a lot going on in the IAF to modernise the situation.
it is very very very sad to me that it took 200 pilots lives outside of a war situation to realise that something was wrong

if we look at the accidents they were mostly in late 1990s and early 2000's - someone correct me if im wrong

Last mig retired 1998. Total there were maybe 100 of them in use. Missions were air space control missions. Total hours I have no clue, I am not an aviator, just watched a documentary of finnish Migs where pilots told it was very demanding for pilot, but when mastered they loved it. Ok, over 200 lost lives is a tragedy. My condolences. Nevertheless something has gone seriously wrong somewhere for that to happen.

the last one was in 1998 - i think our indian folks should take note of that -
it means they started retiring them earlier ! ...and we are still using some ?
if that aint crazy or what ?

anyway to @jouni.... im sure that indian pilots are not what you said
and what about the cardiac problems in your Karelia ? ...i wonder if you recruited
from the lumberjacks ? .because .it took more than 25 years to solve, being the highest rate
in the world :-
http://www.inspq.qc.ca/pdf/publications/1624_NorthkareliaProjectFinland.pdf
Honestly, on my word, my sincere condolences as well

 

[sgarg]

@roma, you are correct that accident rate was very high in nineties and early 2000s. There were a multitude of problems for a decade. The situation has gradually improved in the last 12 years.

On the other side of the border, PAF has seen quite high accident rates in the last few years.

It is a combination of factors - age of fleet, maintenance, pressure on men etc.

 

[roma]

@roma, you are correct that accident rate was very high in nineties and early 2000s. There were a multitude of problems for a decade. The situation has gradually improved in the last 12 years.

On the other side of the border, PAF has seen quite high accident rates in the last few years.

It is a combination of factors - age of fleet, maintenance, pressure on men etc.

i accept what you say that the accident rate of mig21 in india has improved over the last few years
i understand there was a program to strengthen the mechanical structure of those planes

as a p.i.o. person i can only dearly hope that they do it thoroughly ...otherwise we will be chasing a
different set of problems every few years
im not being negative but it is a reality that i am addressing .

but hanging on to the mig21 is hardly the way .....we already have tejas which is a far beter prospect
we should have a program to phase in the tejas and therefore phase out the mig21's
we ant be hanging on to an aircraft which soon is gonna hit 40 years and plus when china is
having J31 pseudo-stealth ....theirs is a pseudo , but still its brand new whereas we are still
using mig21 ? we should be talking TEjas Mk 2 and amca and not anymore about mig21's

 

[jouni]

Also FiAF had to use some creativity to keep those old birds in the air.