Which caliber do you prefer in an automatic rifle ??

[Kunal Biswas]

That can be a Terrorist PR vid..

 

[W.G.Ewald]

one shot on kill.[warning:very bloody]

video deleted-----people may feel uncomfortable

Not necessary to delete. First, similar video has been shown on American TV by major networks. Second, my objection should not require deletion because I an a DFI member just like you, and only moderators can require deletions. Third, DFI members should not shrink from the reality of war.

I respect your willingness to delete it however.

 

[Param]

i have said there is a warning.
and,someone talked about one shot one kill.i happen to watch the video and gave the link.it is one shot one kill.i was following the thread.but i ignored the bad influence.
besides,its not murder.it is war.killing with gun is murder,but killing with missile is not murder
i am not defending for the terrorist.i just try to explain,there is no moral in a war.both r killing people.

Terrorist or not depends on perspective. There is no morality anywhere just hypocrisy.

 

[bhramos]

How many Indians here really fired a gun in the first place?

i have never fired any guns but caught so many hunting rifles and and SA-80

 

[W.G.Ewald]

I have heard that in China you can go to public shooting ranges and fire up to some heavy MG.

 

[pmaitra]

Its says Auto-ma-tic Rifle, Can you handle a full auto with that?

Good point. I had a hard time shooting full auto with 9mm Ruger.

 

[pmaitra]

Ths Soviet "Poison Bullet"

Ths Soviet "Poison Bullet"

5.45x39mm x 5.56x45mm

I would like to share with you all this discussion from two different places (delete is inappropriate).

the russian 5.45x39mm ammo has a hollow space in the tip to make it unstable. it isn't a hollow point because the bullet jacket fully encloses the tip. the reason they designed it this way was to make it unstable so that it would tumble on impact. try throwing a dart backwards and you will understand how having the weight of the bullet in the back makes it want to tumble.it also doesn't help accuracy. the reason you don't hear much about the ak74 is that it is so mechanically similar to an ak47. the only notable difference aside from the ammo is that the ak74 has an extremely efficient muzzle brake that reduces felt recoil significantly. the downside is that it can cause hearing damage to any soldiers beside the shooter.​

The Afghans called the Russian 4.35x39.5mm round the "poison bullet", for the way it could go in your chest and come out your arse. It is superior than 5.56mm NATO on wounding, in that its hollow will still cause the round to yaw quickly and change directing in soft tissue even when shot at distance, with dwindling velocity; the 5.56mm round on the other hand needs high velocity (<150m's from 21 inch barrel), to fragment and cause large wound cavities. However, the 5.56mm round can go through more steal/kevlar than the Russian round, so its all a trade off.​

And the tumbling and fragmentation characteristics of 5.56mm depends very greatly on which 5.56mm round you are discussing -- 55 grain M193 behaves differently than 62 grain SS109 and the 77 grain round fired by the SPR is, again, different (and rather less pleasant to be on the receiving end of). The strongest commentary on 5.45mm as a round, I believe, is that fact that the Russians are said to have partially switched back to 7.62x39mm for operations in Chechnya. Also, the switch back to the older rounds is said to include their special operations types, who should be better with bullet placement than the rank and file, which suggests they are having lethality problems even with torso hits. If I had to guess, I would say they are seeing the same sort of issues as you see with 5.56mm -- the round is dynamite when it behaves as advertised, but if it fails to tumble it's just a knitting needle (and, given Russian industry, I'd be very hesitant on any round whose effectiveness relied on quality control issues during production).​

Source: StrategyPage Error Page 2

I've heard of the "poison bullet" before. Probably read about it in Soldier of Fortune sometime in the '80's.

What it is, is the standard 5.45mm FMJ. But since this bullet has a rather large hollow cavity at the front, though fully enclosed by the jacket material, it tumbled very easily when it struck flesh. This devistation is why it was given the moniker "poison bullet."

Somebody recently posted a picture of a sectioned 5.45mm bullet with a bunch of others. Wish I could remember just where it was.

Here's the pic, Mach1's post, third one down on the first page: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=64&t=58949

Afghan legend...and nothing else.

legend huh? while authors argue over whether the 'correct' translation from pashtoon into english is "poison" or "stinging", there can be no doubt as to the effect of the air core, weighted base 5.45 round as issued to the russian and bulgarian militaries.

shoot an empty pop can with .223...any distance you choose.

shoot another empty can with 5.45.

now, shoot a full gallon milk jug full of water with .223 fmj.

then shoot one with 5.45.

now, imagine a bullet that flips even faster being used. the military rounds are hard to find in america.

while the human body is neither pop can nor milk jug, the effects of the rounds are self-explanatory.

Just look at a 5.45 round for a moment and you can see how it's supposed to work.

It doesn't take a ballistics expert to realize that a bullet that long and narrow couldn't possibly fly through much flesh without losing stability.

The 5.56 round achieved the various ballistic feats it's known for mostly by accident of design, but the 5.45 was optimized for them from the begining.

Source: 5.45 "Poison bullets" = urban myth? - AR15.Com Archive

 

[Virendra]

Good point. I had a hard time shooting full auto with 9mm Ruger.

From what I know second hand, its difficult to control the recoil in automatic ones. The barrel and with it your sight just races upwards with every round.
Professional target shooting circuits teach that one should try to maintain aim undisturbed even upon the fire, meaning fight the recoil as much as you can.
I believe that (as compared to others) those who practice that way will be more comfortable with auto weapons.
One downside is that in this method of resistance to recoil, people tend to stiffen their arms too much. It exhausts you very quickly.
And believe me once the arm starts to wear down, even an IHP .77 air rifle it too much to hold decently

Regards,
Virendra

 

[Neil]

does any one have info about armored pierceing bullets...??

 

[pmaitra]

Rule of 22

From what I know second hand, its difficult to control the recoil in automatic ones. The barrel and with it your sight just races upwards with every round.
Professional target shooting circuits teach that one should try to maintain aim undisturbed even upon the fire, meaning fight the recoil as much as you can.
I believe that (as compared to others) those who practice that way will be more comfortable with auto weapons.
One downside is that in this method of resistance to recoil, people tend to stiffen their arms too much. It exhausts you very quickly.
And believe me once the arm starts to wear down, even an IHP .77 air rifle it too much to hold decently

Regards,
Virendra

Exactly. The more you stress yourself trying to hold a gun straight, the more easily you are likely to lose your steadiness and miss your targets.

BTW, the 'rule of 22' is a fine way to shoot with full auto on in small bursts. In a typical AK-47, press the trigger as you say 'twenty' and release it as you say 'two.' With enough practice, you will get nice bursts of 3 with full auto on.

 

[Virendra]

Will look into the bursts later, first tell me how to get an automatic

 

[Naren1987]

Who the heck wants 7.62?, it's way too inaccurate, and wounding an enemy is better than killing him.

 

[Virendra]

9mm is very popular among law enforcement agencies, it has a "jack of all trades" reputation.
Not sure about the armed forces though.

Now that we're talking about the effectiveness of various calibers, here's a veteran's first hand experience.

Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue

You'll have to read slow and carefully, because its a thread and one little out of format. But worth full read.
Forensic Mortician/Pathologist is a man who can tell you what the bullet exactly did to the body and how. He would know about all kinds of calibers & all kinds of bodies .. inside out.

Regards,
Virendra

 

[Bhadra]

In Wars, There is a disengagement followed by engagements between you and the enemy. It means there is distance between you and the enemy. So, one starts engaging the enemy when one is able to acquire and target (both being different). It is fine that, under such circumstances, wounding or injuring your enemy may be fine.

The situation changes dramatically when one is face to face with the enemy. Principles of self defence demand that one should be able to kill the enemy for ones survival. That is why many Armies ahve diffrent calibres for standard rifle (400 m) and CQB weapons (50 m or less).

Then there are operational situation under which one most of the time acquires and fires on target generally at 100 m or less. Under those circumstances, calibres suited to CQB prevail as with most of special Forces meant for CI or terrorist operations.

The biggest dilemma is to find an answer for both requirements.

AK ammunition and weapon system in that regard is unsurpassed.

Only that 7.62 has not worked so well for pistols.

 

[pmaitra]

9mm is very popular among law enforcement agencies, it has a "jack of all trades" reputation.
Not sure about the armed forces though.

Now that we're talking about the effectiveness of various calibers, here's a veteran's first hand experience.

Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue

You'll have to read slow and carefully, because its a thread and one little out of format. But worth full read.
Forensic Mortician/Pathologist is a man who can tell you what the bullet exactly did to the body and how. He would know about all kinds of calibers & all kinds of bodies .. inside out.

Regards,
Virendra

Just for the records, I would urge you to consider copying and pasting that entire article here in DFI. I know this is not encouraged, but who knows how long that link will stay alive? More the replication, more the chances of survival. It is only by multiple replication that thoughts, ideas and facts become indelible. Just my humble thoughts.

 

[Virendra]

Just for the records, I would urge you to consider copying and pasting that entire article here in DFI. I know this is not encouraged, but who knows how long that link will stay alive? More the replication, more the chances of survival. It is only by multiple replication that thoughts, ideas and facts become indelible. Just my humble thoughts.

Exactly, that is why I'm in the habit of pasting crucial excerpts at this forum, rather than the complete content of an article etc.
As much as you and I want; complete copy paste is not allowed here. Could become a legal hassle for DFI, who knows. If the mods/admins give me a green light, I don't mind doing it.
In this particular case, I couldn't figure out .. or say was too lazy to find and post the crucial points of that thread as excerpts.
Those who're really interested would read it and those who valued it upon reading would save it with them for same cautions as you expressed.
I hope you liked the article, it was shared at IFG.

Regards,
Virendra

 

[Kunal Biswas]

does any one have info about armored pierceing bullets...??

Search for Full metal Jacket Rounds..


IA 5.56mm and 7.62nato so does 7.62M43 are all fmj category..

Who the heck wants 7.62?, it's way too inaccurate, and wounding an enemy is better than killing him.

RR like 7.62M43, Their are 3 types of 7.62

One is NATO
two are Soviats

India use all three, Now days 7.62nato/7.62X54R use in FAL DMRs and SVD DMRs where all AKM in CT ops use 7.62M43..

The theory of 5.56MM doesn't apply for Tangos..

Beside 7.62 of both rounds are good for killing..

 

[W.G.Ewald]

7.62×54mmR - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The cartridge remains one of the few standard issue rimmed cartridges still in military use and has the longest service life of all military issued cartridges in the world


7.62×39mm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The 7.62×39mm round is a rifle cartridge of Soviet origin that was designed during World War II. It was first used in the RPD machine gun. Due to the worldwide proliferation of the SKS and AK-47 pattern rifles, the cartridge is utilized by both militaries and civilians alike.



7.62×51mm NATO - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The 7.62×51mm NATO (official NATO nomenclature 7.62 NATO) is a rifle cartridge developed in the 1950s as a standard for small arms among NATO countries.

 

[ALBY]

My choice Knights Armament SR-47

"This particular 7.62 x 39mm is probably the most accurate 7.62 x 39mm in the world because it's got a really fine free-floated barrel,"To enable the use of battlefield pick-up magazines, it can use AK-47 magazine... 8)

can any one rate this western rifles chambered for m43 with akms and vz58s?
AFAIK akms and vz58s will won unanimusly coz both are rugged in addition to punching power where as the ruggedness of these western rifles are questionable.
any objections ?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

AKM and its variants or the ones share it Internal architecture have best reliability..

But if one goes for accuracy and precision with M43 in a western rifle SIG-556 ( M43 ) Variant, SIG is win..

So does the above Rifle, Do note the barrel length and its Iron Sights..