When an assertive China outsmarts a clumsy India

Discussion in 'China' started by huaxia rox, Jun 8, 2013.

  1. huaxia rox

    huaxia rox Senior Member Senior Member

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    When an assertive China outsmarts a clumsy India - The New Indian Express

    Unlike India, whose leaders and strategists are guided by Western diplomatic and strategic thinking, China is guided primarily by the strategies enunciated in the 6th century BC, in the words of one of its generals, Sun Tzu. Drawing on the sayings of Sun Tzu, China has outmanoeuvred a clumsy India, held in awe of Chinese economic and military power and its impressive infrastructure on its borders in Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh.

    Sun Tzu proclaimed: “The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting,” adding, “All warfare is based on deception.” Under siege on its coastal frontiers over maritime territorial disputes with Japan, Vietnam, the Philippines, Brunei and Malaysia, China’s rulers have evidently decided that it is necessary for them to keep their western frontiers with India quiet. But, for this it was necessary to force India into a position of immobilisation on its borders, which would preclude it from building its defences or infrastructure along the Ladakh-Tibet border. By moving merely 50 soldiers into Depsang in Ladakh in April, China rattled India into a virtual surrender. In Chinese/Tibetan maps between the 17th century and 1919, Depsang has been clearly depicted as being on the Ladakh side of the Ladakh-Tibet border. What China achieved by its intrusion was a pullback of Indian forces and a removal of defence structures on India’s side of the boundary and a virtual veto on India’s forward infrastructure and defence build-up on its borders. Sun Tzu would have been proud of his teachings of victory without war.

    Proceeding to Pakistan while escorted in Pakistan air space by JF-17 fighters designed by Russia but supplied by China, Prime Minister Li Keqiang further rubbed India’s nose in the dust. Much of his time was spent in Islamabad on improving road connectivity through Pakistan and Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. This, after he secured India’s silence by getting India to agree that “the two sides are committed taking a positive view and support each other’s friendship with other countries”. In effect, he had secured an Indian commitment not to raise inconvenient questions about Sino-Pakistan nuclear, missile and military collaboration. Pakistan’s nuclear weapons are of Chinese design, its Plutonium facilities and ballistic missiles are of Chinese origin. China has emerged as Pakistan’s largest weapons supplier, with weaponry ranging from fighter jets, to frigates and tanks.

    China’s official mouthpiece Global Times gloated over what had transpired. It first ridiculed India’s concerns about Sino-Pakistan nuclear cooperation. Then for good measure it added: “India must accept and adapt to the enviable friendship between China and Pakistan. China cannot scale down this friendship merely because of Indian feelings.” New Delhi appears to have been so overawed by China’s leadership that it did not take up the significant shift that has taken place in China’s nuclear doctrine. In its recently published defence white paper, China has for the first time omitted all mention of its long-term policy of “no first use” of nuclear weapons. This implies that in the event of tensions escalating with Pakistan over a 26/11-style terrorist attack, India could conceivably face the threat of nuclear blackmail from China. While we have endorsed China’s role in the Gulf of Aden, why did we not secure a similar Chinese endorsement of an Indian role in the South China Sea? On issues of water security, we have secured no guarantee from China on prior consultations on upstream projects across the Brahmaputra. All that the Chinese have agreed to is the provision of “flood-season hydrological data”.

    Having proclaimed that “the greatest victory is that which requires no battle”, Sun Tzu must be grinning in the high heavens over what China has achieved in India in a matter of a few weeks. It is perhaps time for our mandarins to do some serious reading of Kautilya’s Arthashastra and to heed Defence Minister A K Antony’s words that there can be no “miracles” in India-China relations.
     
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  3. huaxia rox

    huaxia rox Senior Member Senior Member

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    the 2 sentences are so tricky i cant see how the conclusion of the last part of the last sentence is led to by other parts.
     
  4. SamwiseTheBrave

    SamwiseTheBrave Regular Member

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    use some good old fashioned critical and logical thinking ! but then again, it can`t be practiced often enough under CPP rule....
     
  5. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    India is quietly moving into the SCS and Pacific with naval 'drills' with Vietnam and Philippines and strategic initiatives with Australia and Japan.

    One wonders who will have the last laugh! ;)

    Why was Li Keqiang escorted in Pakistan air space by JF-17 fighters?

    Was there some positive intelligence input that Li Keqiang was in danger or was it to show that though Pakistan is bankrupt, it can still manage a few aircraft into the air?

    Or was it display that the PAF had now learnt how to fly the Chinese gifted machines?
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2013
  6. huaxia rox

    huaxia rox Senior Member Senior Member

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    Not just land, PLA also intruding into India's water and airspace in Jammu and Kashmir : North, News - India Today

    Even as the controversy over Chinese incursion nearly 10 km inside the Indian territory in Ladakh region of Jammu and Kashmir refuses to die, it has now emerged that there were more provocations by the neighbouring country in water and air space as well

    According to sources in the ministry of defence (MoD), Chinese forces have been making their way into the Indian side of the huge Pangong Tso Lake, through which the Line of Actual Control (LoAC) passes.

    Headlines Today secured images of Chinese patrol boats that intruded into the Indian side of the lake. Equipped with over 20 well-armed boats, the Chinese fleet violated Pangong Lake water space.

    The People's Liberation Army (PLA) has been virtually running in circles around Indian troops in this space. In the past, Chinese boats have even disabled Indian boats. In 2000, Chinese boats had even rammed into two Indian patrol boats in the lake.

    Two-thirds of the 134-km-long lake is controlled by China as it extends from Tibet to India and one-third comes under India's jurisdiction

    Not just land and water, but the PLA has also violated Indian airspace repeatedly in the recent weeks. This year, two helicopters were sighted by ground forces on the Indian side first in March and then again on April 15.

    According to the MoD records, China has violated Indian airspace seven times, including twice this year, since the restart of Daulat Beg Oldi (DBO) airstrip in 2008. While the first violation was observed the same year, two more such violations each were recorded in 2010 and 2012.
     
  7. xingapore

    xingapore Tihar Jail Banned

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    probably the chinese.

    india and japan did some talking. they met at sea and after they met, they went home. Japan went home with its high tech ships, india went home with its low tech ships and I think china wondered what all that was about as nothing really changed.

    No doubt india is moving into the SCS when its ships have to meet Japan. how else does it get to Japan? But indias hopes moving in with any permanancy with port rights in Japan or vietnam seems far fetch.

    I think its a display as you said, but more of an honourary one.
     
  8. bose

    bose Senior Member Senior Member

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    Welcome to the forum!! have a nice time here...
     
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  9. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    When one is fear crazed, one requires to dream.

    Dream on Tongzhi. 同志

    So, you are the new Chinese recruit to the China brigade?
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2013
  10. Abhijeet Dey

    Abhijeet Dey Regular Member

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    If assertive China wants to follow their Sun Tzu version of cold start military doctrine against India then Indian armed forces have no other option but to create theatre level nuclear weapons just like Pakistan. :notsure:
     
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  11. t_co

    t_co Senior Member Senior Member

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    How does that fit with India's NFU?
     
  12. mikhail

    mikhail Senior Member Senior Member

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    no afaik India will have the last laugh coz we are smart and nearly all the big powers are our friends and allies.
    regarding our relationship with Vietnam,well i won't be surprised to see Vietnam developing nukes in the coming decade with a little "unofficial" help from us of course.your country started this dangerous game by arming a dangerous country like pakistan with nuclear weapons,so now its our turn to return that favor of yours with interest.china is slowly but surely getting surrounded by her enemies in the SCS but the same can't be said about us in the IOR!
     
  13. mikhail

    mikhail Senior Member Senior Member

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    so why did your "mighty" PLA back off at the last moment leaving our territory without a single shot being fired upon them.admit it my dear old friend Huaxia that your PLA is quite afraid of getting involved in a direct firefight with the Indian Army.you guys tired this once back in '62 but then retreated with your tails between your legs when the IA started to mount a full blooded counter offensive against you.all you can do now is blabber b.s. coz we all know what your PLA is really capable of doing in front of the IA.Period!
     
  14. t_co

    t_co Senior Member Senior Member

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    There are only two countries in the SCS which are actively obstructing Chinese interests - Vietnam and the Phillipines. Vietnam shares a land border with China, and if Vietnam tries developing nukes, you can be sure that China will steamroll Vietnam long before they get them. The PLA is more than 6x the size of the Vietnamese army, after all, and much, much more technologically advanced. (Unlike the US in the Vietnam War, the PLA is not going to be bound by restrictive ROEs or try to hold any territory, either - their objective will be to dismantle the industrial and technological infrastructure and then leave.)

    The Phillipines, as the recent Taiwan shooting debacle has shown, is not only undisciplined, but toothless. India can have them as an "ally", but they will be a net drain on Indian resources.

    Japan is the only ally worth keeping (scratch South Korea, Australia, and Taiwan, since they'd pick China over India in a heartbeat due to cultural or economic ties, or both). Unfortunately, Japan has hidden risks as an ally. Given how delicate Japan's bond market is during its attempted economic transition, China's $200bn holdings of Japanese government bonds represents a bomb that can be timed to go off at the most inopportune moment in the Japanese financial market. A massive sell-off of Japanese government debt right as the Japanese central bank is printing lots of yen will send the Japanese government into insolvency within 30 days - and, because Japanese bonds are the largest asset class in Japanese banks, lead to a bank run on the entire Japanese economy.

    Unlike the Chinese debt to the United States (the outgrowth of a trade surplus), China's debt to Japan has occured in the face of a Japanese surplus to China - against the laws of economic normality. What this means is that China has consciously (and quietly) built up a financial nuke aimed at Tokyo that it can detonate without hurting itself more than it will hurt Japan (since Japan runs a surplus with it).

    Indian aspirations in China's backyard are, unfortunately, simply a distraction.

    India would do far better learning how to mend fences with its own neighbors first.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2013
  15. mikhail

    mikhail Senior Member Senior Member

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    it will fit just fine with our NFU policy.see what my friend was trying to say was that if your PLA mount a giant offensive against us all of a sudden then we'll follow the same policy that pakistan follows to counter our CSD.we'll use theatre level nuclear weapons to stall the advances made by the PLA and in the process will destroy a large part of their Strike force.its called "Tit for Tat".you made pakistan capable of doing this against us(by providing them with nuclear weapons) in case of a full fledged war,we made ourselves capable of pulling this stunt against you in case of a full fledged Indo-Chini war in the future
     
  16. t_co

    t_co Senior Member Senior Member

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    Er. NFU = No first use. So if you use tactical nukes unprovokedly, doesn't that violate "no first use"?
     
  17. mikhail

    mikhail Senior Member Senior Member

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    i think you forgot about the U.S. Pacific Fleet and the Japanese Navy in the equation.your greatest adversary in the SCS is Taiwan of course and believe me they are more than ready to take on your PLAN in case of a future war with all their newly developed Hsiung Feng III anti-ship missiles and then there will be the U.S.A. to back them in case of a war with china.
    now regarding Vietnam we all know what happened to your soldiers when the PLA tried to invade Vietnam in 1979.Vietnam has a reputation of being a "Giant killer".now how do you propose to defeat them at present situation when you couldn't defeat them way back in '79 and faced utter humiliation by getting defeated by a country of about one-fourteenth of your size.
    so better take my little advise and try to mend your relation with your neighbors before it gets too late!
     
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  18. mikhail

    mikhail Senior Member Senior Member

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    you think we will follow the NFU in case of a full blooded war with china!NFU is not a law after all and it can be broken at any time,after all there's an old saying that "everything is fair in love and war"!
     
  19. huaxia rox

    huaxia rox Senior Member Senior Member

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    first reason is this: India agrees to some Chinese demands to end Himalaya standoff | Reuters
    (Reuters) - India has agreed to a Chinese demand to demolish bunkers near their de facto border in the Himalayas, Indian military officials said, as part of a deal to end a standoff that threatened to scupper slowly improving relations.

    we appreated that.

    as for 1962 we withdrew with around 3000 indian pows in hand and indian invaders driven out of aksian chin. the later one was our stragtic goal and we didnt want to invade india. well if you wanted to trcace us back and go into chinese tibet to revenge you could have done that but you not suprisingly didnt. later indians accepted all the pows and thats it nothing more nothing less.

    indians can celebrate so called kargil victory with a few pakistanis killed and many indian jawans killed and higest mountain point in kargil lost to pak every year so i would like to suggest you to celabrate 1962 war and 2013 border war as your habit goes.
     
  20. huaxia rox

    huaxia rox Senior Member Senior Member

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    i think you will keep grabbing some popcons and watch what ever is going to happen. you need some time to fix your fake nuclear weapon degigns by the way.
     

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